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2011-07-21 8:25 AM

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Champion
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Subject: Predicting your race finishing time..
Prior to Vineman, I was asked by a number of people what I felt my splits and finishing time for the race would be. I said 28-29 swim, 2:20 bike, 1:25-1:26 run which I figured would put me in around 4:20. I was within 3min of the finsih estimate and even close ont he splits. After the race a friend mentioned he was suprised how spot on I was in those estimates and it got me thinking. Back in 2007 at my first IM I also had come within min. of predicting my splits and finsih time. It always seemed rather academic to do so based on my training to formulate reasonable time goals for a race and I always assumed everyone else did the same.

What I have found instead is that many people often have either wildly optomistic or wildly pessimistic estimates pre-race. I personally think it's helpful to have specific race goals, I also feel for me it's helpful when I put them out there before a race as it removes the fear of them and gives me a sense of confidence. So barring a mechanical or nutritional issue, how do you as an athlete determine your race time goals? Do you alow for multiple goals or just one?


2011-07-21 8:37 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
I do just like you do.  I predict my splits based on my training and add them to get my total estimate.  I'm usually close, except my first Oly earlier this month where I had just recovered from strep and my run was 7 minutes slower than I anticipated - just ran out of juice.
2011-07-21 8:43 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Master
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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

I had two projections. The "If everything goes perfectly and I perform at top speed for each event" time and the "but here's realistically what I'll probably do because I'm racing three events back to back." I was within 3 minutes of my realistic time. I actually hit my ideal time goals for the swim and the run, but missed the bike by 15 minutes -- so I missed my "perfectly" time by . . . 15 minutes. :-( (Still kicking myself for that bike performance.) It would seem kind of weird to me to have absolutely no idea how I might run a race.

2011-07-21 8:58 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

I really like this calculator I play around with it in the weeks leading up to a race and like the other poster I generally have a 'this is what I will be happy with' knowing it can go either way.

I also think the more you train and the more you race the closer your expectations can be. Throw in an injury or illness and all the numbers can go right out the window. 

2011-07-21 8:58 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

I have only done sprints to date, but I find that I'm pretty good at estimating what my finish time will be. It's all based on my training times and what I know I'm capable of. I add a little bit of cushion to my goal time knowing that my times will not be as good as my standalone times for each leg.

For example, my goal for my last race was 1:30 and I finished in 1:31:54.

2011-07-21 9:08 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
Hey Bryan,

You read my race report from Racine 70.3 this weekend. I had a goal I thought was conservative based on my perception of my training. Given there were other things that went wrong for me like my goggles, swimming of track, taking in water, bloating, etc. I missed my conservative goal by a HUGE margin. Being this was my first HIM I'm not sure what I thought was a conservative goal, might have been optimistic. But I figured I'd share how I came up with it and you could be the judge.

My goal was to break 5:30 and my actual time was 6:19

Swim- I've come a long way in 2 seasons of swimming. I did some progressive 100's in the pool the saturday before the race. My last 100 out of 500 was timed at 1:31 by my coach. He thought I'd be top 30 out of the water. But given my lack of racing this season and OWS'ing I figured a 2min/100 would be a good target for me
Swim time goal 42min actual 45!!

Bike- I'm a fairly strong cyclist. My training 56 mile rides have been near 21mph avg. My FTP is 285 and my power to weight is 1.7. I figured, in a race I could hold 75-80% FTP at around 225 watts. Racines course is a little less elevation gain than my normal 56 mile training ride so I figured a 22-23mph avg with those numbers
Bike goal 2:30 actual 2:57!!!!

Run- I ran 8min/miles earlier in the year in a marathon all the way to the 20 mile mark. I had no problem clipping off 7-7:30 miles off the bike on my brick workouts. I figured 7:30-8:00 miles off the bike from these numbers. Based on this I figured around 1:45 1/2 Mary conservatively

transitions- I looked at others times from last year and figured 5 min T1 and 2 minute T2

Bike/Run/Swim/Transition estimated times put me at 5:04. I figured I had 26 minutes play to break my goal # of 5:30. I added that buffer because I've never done an HIM before.

My logs are open to view and everything is up to date so feel free to check that out. Do you think I was being realisticy Bryan?

Edited by Meulen 2011-07-21 9:20 AM


2011-07-21 9:08 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Runner
Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
The thing that jumps out at me immediately is that you base your goal times OFF YOUR TRAINING.

This is exactly how it should be done. But more people seem to pick a number by throwing a dart at a wall, and seeing where it lands. Of course, most people are probably not aware enough of their training, or probably not really training enough, to be able to make appropriate time goals based on their training. But that's a story for another day.
2011-07-21 9:09 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
I've been pretty good about predicting my splits. I tend to be a little on the pessimistic side though as I am still fairly new to the sport and still seeing improvements from training
2011-07-21 9:11 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

My predictions are kind of self fulfilling prophecies.  I take my training times for each individual event and come up with a number I think I can hit.  I calculate what pace I need to bike/run at in order to make that time and then I watch my GPS watch to make sure I'm on that pace the whole race.

I generally set my goals pretty aggressive so I'm not limiting myself.  This weekend I am hoping for/predicting a 2:30 Oly.  I know that I need to do the swim in 26-28 minutes, Bike at 21mph, and run at an 8 min. mile pace to hit that.

I came up with the numbers because standalone I can do the swim in that, I biked the course at 22mph standalone and usually run at a 7:30 min pace.  Also, 3rd place in my AG last year was 2:31.  lol

2011-07-21 9:25 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Master
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Goodyear, AZ
Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

I wonder how using tools such as a HR monitor or PM helps with the time estimates? In other words, would athletes using these be better able to predict their finishing times (if external factors such as weather, equipment cooperate) better than those don't?
I have to admit that I have a hard time coming up with goals/estimated race times. I'm not typically a pessimistic person, so I think I would label myself as "lacking confidence" I don't use HR or power, so I try to do some race simulation workouts in training. That's about as close as I can get to predicting how I might do on race day. 
2011-07-21 9:27 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Master
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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
I've only done shorter races so far, but usually I'm within a minute or two of my estimated finish time.


2011-07-21 9:31 AM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

If you train on terrain similar to race it is easier to know from training how your race will go.

 

2011-07-21 9:43 AM
in reply to: #3607982

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
I predict based on my prior race performance.  I compare the race to other races I have done, find one that's similar, and use those speeds to determine time based on distance.    I usually do this prediction only so that spectators know where I will be at certain times.   Because of that, I usually have my "best case scenario" time and my "this is more likely" time.   I rarely think I will be slower than I actually am.   I am often slower than I think I will be

My predictions are usually pretty accurate for distances I have done in the past.   I was WAY off for my half iron because I didn't know the terrain or account for any problems.  It seems that in running races, when one has to predict in order to get in a certain corral or whatever, people seem to be more all over the place. 
2011-07-21 9:58 AM
in reply to: #3607758

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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

I base my predictions (race plan) off my training.  Even in a year like this one where my training is off due to life circumstances, I'm still usually pretty close.  This past Sunday at Musselman, I projected/planned 35 min swim, 3:00 bike, and 2:15-2:20 run.  I went 35:xx on the swim, 3:01 on the bike, then blew up on the run for a 2:30.  The blow up was partially because of not allowing enough extra time for the forecasted heat (97 degrees by the finish), and partly because my training volume has been so low this year, that I haven't had any training sessions long enough to be certain how I was going to hold up.  I hit the wall hard at mile 11, and struggled badly for those last 2 miles.

Normally, I have a "most likely" prediction, a "worst case", and a "best case".  Usually, I'm somewhere between "most likely" and "best case".  Last year in my first IM, my most likely was 13:00-13:30, best case of 12:30, and worst case of just finishing.  I felt like I executed my plan well, and finished in 12:34, but it was helped in part by cooler than normal temps.  In sprints and olys, I'm usually plus or minus 5 minutes of the prediction.

2011-07-21 10:17 AM
in reply to: #3607890

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
Scout7 - 2011-07-21 8:08 AM

  • .....

  • But more people seem to pick a number by throwing a dart at a wall, and seeing where it lands. Of course, most people are probably not aware enough of their training, or probably not really training enough, to be able to make appropriate time goals based on their training. But that's a story for another day.


    Pretty much how I do it.
    2011-07-21 10:35 AM
    in reply to: #3607758

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    Expert
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    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

    I just look up the course record and thats my prediction

    Seriously though, very similar to you I try to formulate estimates based on training or recent race times. Typically I come out pretty close as well.



    2011-07-21 10:55 AM
    in reply to: #3607889

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    Champion
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    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
    Hey Brian, I spent some time going back through your training logs over the last 2 months to get a quick overview and try and best respond to your question. The short answer is yes, your estimates were not reasonable based on your training or your marathon result.

    Again, this is based on quick review of your logs and with apologies if I miss something please point it out. First your swim, 3min for that pace isn't too far off so I think that was well etsimated. That's only 7% off or so and OWS times are tricky to figure due to variability of course length, having to navigate both the course and around other swimmers, ect. OWS times often deviate from pool times and generally they are a bit slower even with the advantage of a wet suit.

    For the bike, the only training I see you riding in excess of 21 mph is indoors on the trainer. Your long outdoor rides are all sub 21 and often in groups. This is a very common mistake people make in evaluating their bike proficiency. Even if you try and not ride in a draft, you do. I'm so glad you brought htis up as this is a very common thing I see locally. Guys ride in groups and post some pretty good times but on their own, they tend to be about 1-2mph slower. This is where you mad the largets mistake in your estimate, there's no indication in yur training that you could ride 22+mph for 56 miles. I often refer to this as "The Bike Fairy" syndrome. People do all their long rides at x pace and then suddenly assume at the race it will be X+2mph after the Bike Fairy comes and sprinkles magic bike dust on them. I'm teasing, but you see my point. To ride the split you estimated, your long, solo training rides would need to have been 21-22 on average at the least.


    For the run, I reviewed both your training and your recent marathon result. First thing I noticed is that you didn't run very much and really didn't do any long runs over 10 miles. The runs you did have a lot of 9+ pacing. using the MacMillan calculator, your open marathon time of 3:44 translates to an open half Marathon time of 1:46. The difference between my open half and IM run split time is 7min. Using that, a good estimate of your Racine run should have been around 1:53, or about an 8:40-8:45 pace. So again, here you estimated too high.

    Let me stop there to allow you to take a look and respond. Please do as I think this can not only be helpful to you but to others reading this thread.
    2011-07-21 11:02 AM
    in reply to: #3607758

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    Expert
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    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
    2011-07-21 11:05 AM
    in reply to: #3607758

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    Not a Coach
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    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

    I usually can predict my splits reasonably well.  Again, from training I have a pretty decent idea of a 'ballpark'.  Challenge comes from translating to course/conditions, so I try never to think too hard about my 'goal' splits during a race.  And, if I race 'well' I don't worry about whether my predictions were right or not.  Similarly, if I race 'poorly', I wouldn't view meeting my goal as a success.

    When I race a course I have done before, it's a bit easier to get a narrower (and more accurate) expected range.

    2011-07-21 11:19 AM
    in reply to: #3608237

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    Champion
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    Fountain Hills, AZ
    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
    JohnnyKay - 2011-07-21 10:05 AM

    I usually can predict my splits reasonably well.  Again, from training I have a pretty decent idea of a 'ballpark'.  Challenge comes from translating to course/conditions, so I try never to think too hard about my 'goal' splits during a race.  And, if I race 'well' I don't worry about whether my predictions were right or not.  Similarly, if I race 'poorly', I wouldn't view meeting my goal as a success.

    When I race a course I have done before, it's a bit easier to get a narrower (and more accurate) expected range.



    Good point, JK. I never am looking very much at "time" during the race with the excption of the swim. On the bike it's HR and on the run it's either HR or pace. The "time" just works it's way out from there.
    2011-07-21 11:40 AM
    in reply to: #3607758

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    Veteran
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    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
    Im still at the "im here to have fun" stage so I typically tell people that I hope to complete the course by Tuesday. That said I have set a PB in every race I have entered. I have never done the same distance race twice but thats not the point.


    2011-07-21 11:54 AM
    in reply to: #3607758

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    Expert
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    San Luis Obispo, CA
    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..

    I use this handy tool, it's been around for a couple of years, arithmetic.

    Swim + T1 + Bike + T2 + Run = Finish Time

    2011-07-21 12:04 PM
    in reply to: #3608210

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    Elite
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    Romeoville, Il
    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
    bryancd - 2011-07-21 10:55 AM

    Hey Brian, I spent some time going back through your training logs over the last 2 months to get a quick overview and try and best respond to your question. The short answer is yes, your estimates were not reasonable based on your training or your marathon result.

    Again, this is based on quick review of your logs and with apologies if I miss something please point it out. First your swim, 3min for that pace isn't too far off so I think that was well etsimated. That's only 7% off or so and OWS times are tricky to figure due to variability of course length, having to navigate both the course and around other swimmers, ect. OWS times often deviate from pool times and generally they are a bit slower even with the advantage of a wet suit.

    For the bike, the only training I see you riding in excess of 21 mph is indoors on the trainer. Your long outdoor rides are all sub 21 and often in groups. This is a very common mistake people make in evaluating their bike proficiency. Even if you try and not ride in a draft, you do. I'm so glad you brought htis up as this is a very common thing I see locally. Guys ride in groups and post some pretty good times but on their own, they tend to be about 1-2mph slower. This is where you mad the largets mistake in your estimate, there's no indication in yur training that you could ride 22+mph for 56 miles. I often refer to this as "The Bike Fairy" syndrome. People do all their long rides at x pace and then suddenly assume at the race it will be X+2mph after the Bike Fairy comes and sprinkles magic bike dust on them. I'm teasing, but you see my point. To ride the split you estimated, your long, solo training rides would need to have been 21-22 on average at the least.


    For the run, I reviewed both your training and your recent marathon result. First thing I noticed is that you didn't run very much and really didn't do any long runs over 10 miles. The runs you did have a lot of 9+ pacing. using the MacMillan calculator, your open marathon time of 3:44 translates to an open half Marathon time of 1:46. The difference between my open half and IM run split time is 7min. Using that, a good estimate of your Racine run should have been around 1:53, or about an 8:40-8:45 pace. So again, here you estimated too high.

    Let me stop there to allow you to take a look and respond. Please do as I think this can not only be helpful to you but to others reading this thread.


    That is Awesome feedback....thanks Bryan!

    Let me explain a few things in my logs and explain my "bike fairy" LOL

    On the bike I've almost always raced 1-2 mph better than training in past races. Last year I had a 23.6mph bike in a sprint and a 22.6 in an Oly. I've done lots of work training with power since last year. My bike training is probably a little mis-represented in my logs. For example, the 2 70 mile rides you see in peak training are not over 20mph. However, I'm a ride leader for our local Lifetime Fitness and it's not uncommon for me to go out and do 35+ miles on my own at 23mph avg and then come back and lead a ride to put in some more miles with a group that brings that avg down. Being a ride leader I also spend most of my time in the front of our group doing the pulling. I'm almost always faster than the groups I'm with and my avg's get brought down by my group rides instead of vice versa, which I totally see people make that mistake. I also took my FTP and tried to translate to a time. Even still you are probably correct and I was shooting in the dark somewhat because of my logs, and because I had never done an HIM before. Maybe around 21 would have been a better estimate?

    On the run. I always log my warmup and cool down. In between those I hold paces. I usually base my race off the paces I hold between, and not the overall pace in my log. For example, one a 6 mile run I may have logged a 9min+ pace. However, I walk 1/4 at 14+ min per mile before and after I held a 7:00 to 8:30 per mile pace. depending on if I'm doing a tempo run or easy run that day. Also, early this year and late last you should see several runs in there over 10 miles. Whatever was part of the Higdon intermediate marathon plan I ran. After the marathon you should see a reverse taper and then a jump into a half mary plan I did in conjunction with HIM training. I think that only included 3-4 runs over 10 miles leading up to HIM. Also, for the marathon I used MacMillan to calculate my paces for the Higdon plan. From my Turkey Trot last year MacMillan had me at 7:30/mile pace, if I remember right. Personally, I didn't feel comfortable with that pace at all. After getting into training I dropped back to training around an 8min/mile pace. Even then I blew up at 20 miles into the marathon! LOL

    Also, remember I put in a 26 minute buffer in my calculations. The reason I did this was because of my inexperience, but also because of the little quirks I have in training and logging.

    Maybe this explains where I was coming from a little better, however, you a clearly more experienced in this than I so I REALLY appreciate your opinion here and won't be offended if you think I'm still dreaming!

    One thing I might add is I spent a couple years MTB racing before tri's. Obviously, not at any high level. Even while doing that I was notorious for having terrible luck in races. The reason I reached out in this thread is because I sometimes fear my expectations of myself, and the consequential beatdown I give myself when goals aren't met, may be condemning my races before they start. People say you make your own luck in these things by preparation and controlling what you can control. I'm afraid I may expect too much, and the anxiety of that is getting to me. Not to mention the mental beatdowns I give myself when I fail.

    thanks Bryan!
    2011-07-21 12:07 PM
    in reply to: #3607758

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    Elite
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    Romeoville, Il
    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
    btw Bryan....I've also been reconsidering the way I log things because of this. I really need to figure out a way to log things that I can go back and look at and get a better estimate of race times.
    2011-07-21 12:10 PM
    in reply to: #3608396

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    Runner
    Subject: RE: Predicting your race finishing time..
    Meulen - 2011-07-21 1:04 PM

    The reason I reached out in this thread is because I sometimes fear my expectations of myself, and the consequential beatdown I give myself when goals aren't met, may be condemning my races before they start. People say you make your own luck in these things by preparation and controlling what you can control. I'm afraid I may expect too much, and the anxiety of that is getting to me. Not to mention the mental beatdowns I give myself when I fail.


    I would say this last part is definitely an important piece of the puzzle, and something you could work on in conjunction with the rest of your training.
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