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2012-11-04 7:00 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Helloooo!

Looking to follow a structured plan and have heard good results about this one. Ppl always say, "try Jorge's winter program!" Ok, I'm here, ready to give it a go. 

This past year, I mostly did intervals 3x a week (all HR based), and one longish ride on the weekend. Had pretty good results using that generic plan, but I'm ready to try something a little different.

I'll mostly be doing this plan using TrainerRoad (virtual power and HR). I've used TR for the past few months and find that it's fairly consistent. What I mean when I say this is that HR is usually the same at certain power outputs. I figure this should work fine.

I plan to start this tomorrow morning. Looking forward to it!



Edited by d00d 2012-11-04 7:15 PM


2012-11-04 11:16 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Jorge, any chance up you uploading your plan to trainer road?
2012-11-05 8:11 AM
in reply to: #4483505

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
melle - 2012-11-05 12:16 AM Jorge, any chance up you uploading your plan to trainer road?
IIRC V4 is BT's plan, they bought it from Jorge.
2012-11-05 10:56 AM
in reply to: #4483766

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Looking for Jorge's Winter Cycling Program?

BT now offers two programs developed by Jorge Martinez of E3 Training Solutions:
-- Winter Cycling with Heart Rate
-- Winter Cycling with Power


View the 2012-2013 thread here:
http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...


2012-11-07 9:15 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Please forgive me if this has been asked a million times!

I'm ALMOST ready to dive into the cycling program, and I think I would like to use VP through TrainerRoad (need the ANT+ stick first).    However, I do have a few questions...

Obviously, so many people have had success with this program, I would like to at least try.

Will it be too much if I do 5 to 6 rides a week? I'm looking at the program, and three days a week is critical, and the fourth day is basically a long ride outside (I'm assuming that it's okay if I go longer rides, as I'm training for a century in a few months).  For those long rides, I cannot really follow the program because I'll be hanging out with my friends, or doing much longer or harder rides. Too many variables.

I probably will start this program when I get back from NJ for Thanksgiving. However, I will miss about two weeks to 2.5 weeks in December when I go back to NJ for Christmas.  When I miss those weeks, will I be okay? I was thinking about just doing what needs to be done, and when I'm gone, I go back one week where I left off.

Lastly - I am wondering how does CP relates to speed AND climbing.  It seems that it helps people a lot with increasing with their CP, but does that translate into faster on the road and better at climbing? That's what I wanted to know because I won't have a PM when I'm on the road, and very rarely I use my HRM, so I just ride blindly.    It just seems that it's more geared towards Triathletes vs cyclists (I'm more of a cyclist than a triathlete), just wanted to be sure.

Thanks!!
 

2012-11-08 10:00 AM
in reply to: #4489069

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
CyborgQueen - 2012-11-07 10:15 PM

Please forgive me if this has been asked a million times!

I'm ALMOST ready to dive into the cycling program, and I think I would like to use VP through TrainerRoad (need the ANT+ stick first).    However, I do have a few questions...

Obviously, so many people have had success with this program, I would like to at least try.

Will it be too much if I do 5 to 6 rides a week? I'm looking at the program, and three days a week is critical, and the fourth day is basically a long ride outside (I'm assuming that it's okay if I go longer rides, as I'm training for a century in a few months).  For those long rides, I cannot really follow the program because I'll be hanging out with my friends, or doing much longer or harder rides. Too many variables.

I probably will start this program when I get back from NJ for Thanksgiving. However, I will miss about two weeks to 2.5 weeks in December when I go back to NJ for Christmas.  When I miss those weeks, will I be okay? I was thinking about just doing what needs to be done, and when I'm gone, I go back one week where I left off.

Lastly - I am wondering how does CP relates to speed AND climbing.  It seems that it helps people a lot with increasing with their CP, but does that translate into faster on the road and better at climbing? That's what I wanted to know because I won't have a PM when I'm on the road, and very rarely I use my HRM, so I just ride blindly.    It just seems that it's more geared towards Triathletes vs cyclists (I'm more of a cyclist than a triathlete), just wanted to be sure.

Thanks!!
 

The first 3 days are key, the 4th is optional (I don't think I ever did but a handful of the 4th ride over the last few winters).  Any 4th day riding will be helpful, so don't worry too much if it is not "the one planned" (see caveat below).

You'll appreciate those off days: the rest is just as important as the riding to let your legs recover and get stronger.  Also, if you are riding hard, you could end up overtraining: whatever you do, don't kill yourself just before test week, your test results will suffer.

Don't worry if you have to take time off: that's life.  I had to stop for 3 different weeks last year.  You just get back on the saddle and pick up where you left off (or repeat the prior week to freshen up your legs), and adjust as needed on the power levels.

As for hill training, the nice thing about this program is that it works on all the different metabolic systems.  So the VO2 max training and the critical power training will definitely help your hill training in terms of aerobic capacity and recovery (for the next hill).  I was able to use my increased fitness to slam by other riders up the hills that year prior had dropped me.

Jorge's program is based on Dr. Phil Skiba's books: I highly recommend reading them for more in-depth info.

http://www.physfarm.com/store/

Good luck!



2012-11-08 11:35 AM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

^^^  Thanks for the input.   I may need to adjust a couple things, but I *should* be okay.  May have to play by ear. Definitely will watch it when it's the test week.  If it doesn't work for me, it's okay. At least I gave it a try.

Good point about overtraining -  I will keep in mind though that if I start to feel the fatigue, is to give up the night rides and do this program as a priority.

Hills - that's what I wanted to know because trainer time doesn't exactly simulate hills, and wanted to know if doing this program will help with the climbing. Otherwise, if the program doesn't really do that, I'll have to adjust it to do hill intervals. I have not yet done hill intervals in years, so I'm not sure which one is more effective for ME.  I do the same hills for weekly my night rides, and it's still a little inconsistent with the times. If I feel good, I may be slower, but I don't feel breathless. If I feel awful, my speed was faster. It's just weird little things like that.  2-4% hill climbing for a mile or so...these aren't short! :-)

2012-11-08 11:38 AM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

My two cents: Increasing your power will help with hills.  It doesn't matter if you do it by riding lots of hills or doing intervals on the trainer.  

I followed this program religiously last year (including the 4th weekly ride), my CP went up by 40 watts and when I rode outside in the spring, hills were easier.

2012-11-08 2:14 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Hopefully someone can help me with this.  I am on day 40 tomorrow using HR but am not sure how to read the main set.  Can someone translate this for me? I cannot figure it out. Thanks.

MS: 
20' as 2' @ 95-105% + 10' @ 70-75% 

2013-01-06 4:07 PM
in reply to: #3744433


1

Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
I noticed that multiple times it says in the plan description that fans should be used. I was wondering if air moving around you was the secret or if I could ride in my garage where it is only slightly warmer than outside. Outside being typical tempature range for this time of year in South Dakota. Is this a bad idea to sweat in a cold garage? Is it best to set up the window ac?
2013-02-07 7:32 AM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Hi

I'm sure this has been asked 100's times before but what does 20MP mean?

I have a love/hate relationship with this program, it's doing great things for my biking, but getting through the workouts is tough. 

Thanks!



2013-02-07 8:47 AM
in reply to: #4612382

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Trichickery - 2013-02-07 8:32 AM

Hi

I'm sure this has been asked 100's times before but what does 20MP mean?

I have a love/hate relationship with this program, it's doing great things for my biking, but getting through the workouts is tough. 

Thanks!

Donto - 2012-12-10 11:46 AM

DuncanQH - 2012-12-10 9:09 AM Hey Donto, in week 4 it asks you to do MP... what is that?  Maximum Power?  I mean it has the MPH/KPH beside it, so I know what to do, just wondering... does that equal 100%?

20MP = your average power result for the 20 minute test.

On that note, I found I made an error in the formula. It's now harder than before!Tongue out (see attached for R2 file)

Trichickery, this was recently answered on page 2 of the current 2012-2013 thread, copied the text above.

2013-02-07 4:53 PM
in reply to: #4612529

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Thanks for your patience & quick reply, I couldn't figure out how to do a search through the threads. 

2014-11-10 8:26 PM
in reply to: d00d

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Cycling Zone Power Calculator
I finished the 20' test & will complete the 5' test later this week. However I was running some numbers in the 5' interval box while using my test results in the 20' interval box to see what the zones might look like after both tests have been completed. I do not understand why the CP calculation lowers if I enter a higher average watts in the 5' interval box while holding the 20' interval average watts constant, using my test results.
2014-11-10 9:44 PM
in reply to: 5stones

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Think of the plot of your best power (y) vs time (x) curve. You're working on getting two points to obtain a third. You have one point, and it's the one in the middle. The one on the left is 5' power and the one to the right will be CP. When the 5' power is higher in relation to 20', the CP will be lower. Kind of like a see-saw with the 20' at the pivot point. Otherwise the function will have some funky dip in it at 20'. Reasons why the 5' power may be higher could be relatively strong anaerobic or (a little more likely) VO2 capability in relation to threshold power. Knowing how strong some points on the curve are in relation to each other can also give you some insight as to what you should work on more to further improvement.

There is also executing both tests well as it can take some practice to do it.

2014-11-11 1:10 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Originally posted by brigby1

Think of the plot of your best power (y) vs time (x) curve. You're working on getting two points to obtain a third. You have one point, and it's the one in the middle. The one on the left is 5' power and the one to the right will be CP. When the 5' power is higher in relation to 20', the CP will be lower. Kind of like a see-saw with the 20' at the pivot point. Otherwise the function will have some funky dip in it at 20'. Reasons why the 5' power may be higher could be relatively strong anaerobic or (a little more likely) VO2 capability in relation to threshold power. Knowing how strong some points on the curve are in relation to each other can also give you some insight as to what you should work on more to further improvement.

There is also executing both tests well as it can take some practice to do it.

Yep.  The way I made sense of it was that if your 5' is way higher than your 20', then your 20' is strongly influenced by your strong VO2 effort, so you'll fade overtime more drastically.  Thus you'll have to build your threshold to increase your 20' power to make your CP higher.

What can happen in the process of this is your 5' power goes up as well, which brings you back to raising your 20' power.  

The process sounds repetitive, but in the course of doing this you will get faster and stronger.



2014-11-11 3:45 PM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Thanks for the response guys. Your explanations were helpful in understanding how the CP was derived using the tests. Although I understand how the numbers are being generated I am not sure I buy into such a drastic drop if you have high 5' max power. I guess I have trouble buying into the idea that if the 5' max power is high relative to the 20' test then you are destined to fade. Is it called pacing? Well I really should wait to see what the 5' test results look like before I go jumping to conclusions. They might be much closer than I am thinking. Also I might be really bad at doing these tests as well. Regardless, thanks for helping me understand how this calculation works. It has certainly made me think a little bit which hopefully will in turn lead to improved training.
2014-11-11 7:26 PM
in reply to: 5stones

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Originally posted by 5stones Thanks for the response guys. Your explanations were helpful in understanding how the CP was derived using the tests. Although I understand how the numbers are being generated I am not sure I buy into such a drastic drop if you have high 5' max power. I guess I have trouble buying into the idea that if the 5' max power is high relative to the 20' test then you are destined to fade. Is it called pacing? Well I really should wait to see what the 5' test results look like before I go jumping to conclusions. They might be much closer than I am thinking. Also I might be really bad at doing these tests as well. Regardless, thanks for helping me understand how this calculation works. It has certainly made me think a little bit which hopefully will in turn lead to improved training.
How much of a spread are you playing with for the 5' input?

For myself, as a rule on a fresh restart of training after time off, wattage wise my 5' result is usually high 30's to low 40's higher than my 20' power. After doing the entire BT program the difference has dropped to the upper 20's so my curve is flattening out as my overall power (CP) increases.  I do the 5' test first to get a guide for the 20' test since I have some history with it. 

2014-11-11 9:12 PM
in reply to: 5stones

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Originally posted by 5stones Thanks for the response guys. Your explanations were helpful in understanding how the CP was derived using the tests. Although I understand how the numbers are being generated I am not sure I buy into such a drastic drop if you have high 5' max power. I guess I have trouble buying into the idea that if the 5' max power is high relative to the 20' test then you are destined to fade. Is it called pacing? Well I really should wait to see what the 5' test results look like before I go jumping to conclusions. They might be much closer than I am thinking. Also I might be really bad at doing these tests as well. Regardless, thanks for helping me understand how this calculation works. It has certainly made me think a little bit which hopefully will in turn lead to improved training.

Pacing is one part of obtaining good test results. The other is very strong determination to hurt that much.  And by good results here I only mean that the power found is really a best effort. Whether the power profile is good is another question. The best effort is going to be lower the longer the effort lasts. The shape of the entire curve is going to depend on the strength of the energy systems and also various aspects of them, such as VO2 max and threshold power for the aerobic system. You can see some profiles here, but know I haven't read the page in detail yet. Another method is over here and shows for a few set points, but helps to highlight the difference between various types of cyclists more.

And keep this in mind too, right now if your 5' power is higher your CP will start lower as you already know your 20' power. That point is fixed for now. The training you are likely to be doing can raise your 5' power, and should also raise your 20' power and your CP. Basically, improvements to your 5' power from whatever it is right now won't necessarily lower your CP. A higher 5' wouldn't be making your CP lower right now, but telling you what your power curve looks like.

2014-11-11 9:18 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by 5stones Thanks for the response guys. Your explanations were helpful in understanding how the CP was derived using the tests. Although I understand how the numbers are being generated I am not sure I buy into such a drastic drop if you have high 5' max power. I guess I have trouble buying into the idea that if the 5' max power is high relative to the 20' test then you are destined to fade. Is it called pacing? Well I really should wait to see what the 5' test results look like before I go jumping to conclusions. They might be much closer than I am thinking. Also I might be really bad at doing these tests as well. Regardless, thanks for helping me understand how this calculation works. It has certainly made me think a little bit which hopefully will in turn lead to improved training.
How much of a spread are you playing with for the 5' input?

For myself, as a rule on a fresh restart of training after time off, wattage wise my 5' result is usually high 30's to low 40's higher than my 20' power. After doing the entire BT program the difference has dropped to the upper 20's so my curve is flattening out as my overall power (CP) increases.  I do the 5' test first to get a guide for the 20' test since I have some history with it. 

Donto, are those difference in absolute values? Percent may be more helpful as the strength of the rider can make a significant difference in that.

2014-11-12 6:58 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by 5stones Thanks for the response guys. Your explanations were helpful in understanding how the CP was derived using the tests. Although I understand how the numbers are being generated I am not sure I buy into such a drastic drop if you have high 5' max power. I guess I have trouble buying into the idea that if the 5' max power is high relative to the 20' test then you are destined to fade. Is it called pacing? Well I really should wait to see what the 5' test results look like before I go jumping to conclusions. They might be much closer than I am thinking. Also I might be really bad at doing these tests as well. Regardless, thanks for helping me understand how this calculation works. It has certainly made me think a little bit which hopefully will in turn lead to improved training.
How much of a spread are you playing with for the 5' input?

For myself, as a rule on a fresh restart of training after time off, wattage wise my 5' result is usually high 30's to low 40's higher than my 20' power. After doing the entire BT program the difference has dropped to the upper 20's so my curve is flattening out as my overall power (CP) increases.  I do the 5' test first to get a guide for the 20' test since I have some history with it. 

Donto, are those difference in absolute values? Percent may be more helpful as the strength of the rider can make a significant difference in that.

Yes, you bring up a good point, as I stated this is "For myself".  I should have included my setup with the KK road machine trainer 'calibrated' with a 13-14 sec spin-down time and usually a 255-260W 5' average when 1st starting out. Typically works out for the 20' to be about 85% of the 5'.



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