Incorporating strength training into triathlon training (Page 2)

2011-11-13 6:37 AM

in reply to: #3899983

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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

Coach Gil - 2011-11-13 1:18 AM

After reading through all these posts, and coming to the conclusion that there appears to be so much diverse information and quite honestly, some of which is just plain not correct, my advise to you is do your thing, whatever that is and whatever works for YOU and makes you happy, period!

I am curious as to which posts are "just plain not ocrrectm". As to doing your own thing, several posters have indicated that there are lots of reasons to include strength training and because an athlete wants to certainly fits in that category.

After 30+ years in the fitness arena, this has been my first year of venturing into the wonderful world of multisport. I finished 2 Oly's this year, the 2nd one faster then the first. At 51 years of age, 5'-11" 165-167 with 6% body fat, I am in the best shape of my life and will continue to strength train 3+ time per week.

Congratulations at your first foray into multisport and hopefully you continue. However, there is nothing here that would be helpful to determine whether or not to include strength training in a program.

While I totally agree that if you want to SBR faster you need to SBR, strength training has many benefits and can be very beneficial to multi sport athletes.

What benefits do you think an endurance athlete will realize?

I no longer train for size utilizing low reps with big weights and consuming the amount of protein required to gain size, instead opting for higher rep counts with moderate to low weights emphasizing those body parts helpful to triathlon. Lats and triceps for the swim, hamstring, quads and calves for both run and bike.

The literaure would indicate that you are actually going about this in the wrong way - the benefits for endurance athletes (although small) seem to come when they do low rep high weight work. The "strength endurance" often prescribed for endurance athletes is not effective despite the fact that it seems to make sense.

Do a Google search on strength training for triathlon and you will find literally thousands of articles on the benefits this type of training can ad to your triathlon experience.

If you do a Google Scholar or Pubmed search you will find that it is not nearly as cut and dried. Just because an article in a magazine or blog post presents a training philosophy doesn't mean that it is correct.

A quote from Mark Allen, 6 time Ironman Champion, "All to many triathletes sacrifice strength training in favor of additional swim, bike and run sessions. This is unwise. In fact, a well executed strength training program can allow you to carve up to 25% out of your swim, bike and run volume while improving performance and enjoying better race day results". From an article in Triathlete magazine.

Mark Allen was a great triathlete but I would hesitate to turn to great athletes for coaching or physiology advice. As to Triathlete magazine, I wouldn't suggest that something is somehow more credible because they printed it; their goal is to sell magazines, not to ensure what they present is valid.

And trust me, at my age, going against these AG'ers that are so flippin fast, I do spend the time in recovery mode as well, with well placed days off for restoration of the body AND mind.

This is important as strength training becomes more important as we age but to claim that it is valuable to all endurance athletes is incorrect.

Shane

2011-11-13 7:38 AM

in reply to: #3900006

Pro

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Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

yoitsbeau - 2011-11-13 2:20 AM

Thank you for your comment. It has given me a lot to think about. I think the high reps with low weights will work very well. I used to play water polo and found that using the row machine ( the one with a handle, chain, and fan) imrpoved my swimming form, endurance, and speed. I think I will try to incorporate that into my training as well.

Thanks,

Beau

You might want to reconsider that approach. I suggest you reread this thread, especially the posts by myself and Shane, and give it some more thought. ST has benefits if done properly, but low weight / high repetition training of the same muscles used for s/b/r is going to be a waste of time, unless your only reason for doing it is that you enjoy it.

bscholes

2011-11-13 8:35 AM

in reply to: #3899128

New user

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

Talk about a confusing subject without a consensus. Dave Scott is a huge proponent of strength training; Macca never touched it. Two all-time greats with completely different thoughts on the subject. The more I read about endurance training, the more i think its not so much WHAT you do, but that you DO whatever you are doing consistently for x days or years running. This sport appears to have several routes to success, all of them involving consistent work. If you think strength training will help you stay injury free or bike harder or longer, then by all means do it. This is a super unclear area of triathlon with no clear roadmap.

David Malka

2011-11-13 11:49 AM

in reply to: #3900108

New user

Los Angeles

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

It's also important to note that while it is a given that doing more SBR is going to have the most significant impact on your SBR, given time constraints, or weather conditions, some may not be able to do so. So in a condition where an athlete will either: a) do nothing, or b) strength train (correctly), then it is clear to me that strength training in that situation would be best (given that it will either have no SBR improvement or very marginal improvement).

In the studies I have read that indicate ST can benefit endurance athletes, the athletes' time to exhaustion improved (subjects could ride farther at a given intensity level after following a leg-strength program for a few weeks). VO2 max was never improved, but lactate threshold improvements ranged from 8-12% (cyclists). Fortunately I live in LA so I don't have to deal with harsh weather and can SBR whenever I want - hence eliminating the need to ST - but I do recognize there is potential for ST value in some subjects (who otherwise cannot SBR).

Edited by David Malka 2011-11-13 11:52 AM

mr2tony

2011-11-13 2:48 PM

in reply to: #3899128

Champion

34263

Chicago

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

Strength training makes me faster, thats for sure. When I do more weight-lifting, I go faster. Like today, I ran 8 miles faster than I did the other day and then lifted. Instant quantifiable results.

ComidaDeluxe

2011-11-13 2:56 PM

in reply to: #3899128

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

Joe Friels advocates strength trainng in The Triathletes Training Bible. Of course he also advocates building a new base every year with long slow distance and no high intensity work until the base phase is complete. His general program has been the recipe for Ironman championships, but then again so has the opposite approach. Some champions have strength trained, some not. Some have built a base with LSD, some do intervals, tempo, FTP work year round. Neither philosophy can be proven right or wrong. The only thing that's wrong is proclaiming your way absolutely right for everyone else.

Left Brain

2011-11-13 2:59 PM

in reply to: #3899128

Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

I lift twice a week. Sometimes in the winter I increase that. It doesn't make me faster. It does make me stronger. If I'm stronger I am more resistant to injury. If I get injured less I can train more. Training more makes me faster. I'm 52. I podium my age group alot. I win it enough to suit me. I don't know anything else about ST. It is entirely possible that I consider it helpful because I have been doing it my whole life. Then again, I may have wasted alot of time. In the end, my wife digs it, so who cares what you all think?

2011-11-13 3:04 PM

in reply to: #3900357

Champion

9407

Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

ComidaDeluxe - 2011-11-13 4:56 PM

His general program has been the recipe for Ironman championships, but then again so has the opposite approach.

Are you saying that there are high level coaches who are using Friel as their basis for training plans?

Shane

2011-11-13 3:38 PM

in reply to: #3900350

Pro

6011

Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

mr2tony - 2011-11-13 3:48 PM Strength training makes me faster, thats for sure. When I do more weight-lifting, I go faster. Like today, I ran 8 miles faster than I did the other day and then lifted. Instant quantifiable results.

I don't understand what you're trying to say, Tony??? Was this supposed to be sarc font?

bryancd

2011-11-13 5:52 PM

in reply to: #3899128

Champion

9600

Fountain Hills, AZ

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

This is a good ST thread! Lot's of new users with bad information! Love it!

jashac

2011-11-13 6:12 PM

in reply to: #3899128

Expert

1148

Santa Fe, New Mexico

Silver member

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

A thought which is just a bit off topic - Lots and lots of endurance training can encourage your body to shed un-needed muscle. Take a look at some of the top endurance athletes, they are quite thin.

If you don't want to do this with your body, or if you're aging and want to fight muscle loss, weight lifting may be what you want to add to your s/b/r.

bryancd

2011-11-13 6:24 PM

in reply to: #3900505

Champion

9600

Fountain Hills, AZ

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

jashac - 2011-11-13 5:12 PM
If you don't want to do this with your body, or if you're aging and want to fight muscle loss, weight lifting may be what you want to add to your s/b/r.

FTW. This is the ONLY reason I, as a 43 year old man, pick up weights. To delay general muscle loss as I age, NOT to be a faster triathlete.

David Malka

2011-11-13 7:16 PM

in reply to: #3899128

New user

Los Angeles

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

Bryan and Shane,

Ultimately we are all here to learn. So, if there are posts I have made in this thread which are incorrect, please point them out and objectively correct them.

I do agree that there are several posts in this thread pulling from personal experience which imho has no weight. Most of my information comes from literature I have read from Joe Friel and studies I've encountered over the years.

My major point (which I mentioned previously) is this:

While it is a given that doing more SBR is going to have the most significant impact on your SBR, given time constraints, or weather conditions, some may not be able to do so. So in a condition where an athlete will either: a) do nothing, or b) strength train(correctly), then it is clear to me that strength training in that situation would be best (given that it will either have no SBR improvement or very marginal improvement). Of course SBR > ST. But that doesn't mean ST value = 0 for multisport.

Edited by David Malka 2011-11-13 7:24 PM

2011-11-13 7:59 PM

in reply to: #3900572

Champion

9407

Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

David Malka - 2011-11-13 9:16 PM

Bryan and Shane,

Ultimately we are all here to learn. So, if there are posts I have made in this thread which are incorrect, please point them out and objectively correct them.

I was trying to which was why I asked the question to which you didn't respond.

My suggestion if you want to learn about the physiology of multisport is to start with Dr. Phil Skiba's books and go from there. Well researched, evidence based information.

My major point (which I mentioned previously) is this:

If time constraints are preventing an athlete from SBR, how are they going to find time to strength train? As to weather conditions, a pool is rarely closed for weather, a bike trainer is always an option and running is possible in most weather.

The issue is that ST in the manner that is often prescribed is essentially useless and often will result in lower quality SBR on subsequent days which makes them doubly useless. There are many good reasons to ST; being a faster endurance athlete is rarely one of them.

David Malka

2011-11-13 8:22 PM

in reply to: #3899128

New user

Los Angeles

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

I stand corrected. You make some good points, thanks for that.

Re; slow twitch hypertrophy, it is likely I have been misinformed. Can you link to some resources or thoroughly explain exactly what this is?

bryancd

2011-11-13 8:29 PM

in reply to: #3899128

Champion

9600

Fountain Hills, AZ

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

What Shane said. Regarding what I said, I am just being snarky on a Sunday evening towards a topic which comes up with the tedious consustency of an unloved season.

2011-11-14 7:00 AM

in reply to: #3900651

Champion

9407

Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

David Malka - 2011-11-13 10:22 PM

Re; slow twitch hypertrophy, it is likely I have been misinformed. Can you link to some resources or thoroughly explain exactly what this is?

Slowtwitch hypertrophy occurs when you place an aerobic strain on your body and the muscles specific to that activity will respond accordingly. Aerobic activity in the VO2max range is the most effective way to cause this (hard efforts lasting 30s to ~5:00 with about equal rest) and also occurs at threshold and tempo efforts but to a somewhat more limited extent. If you consider most ST efforts, the work bouts will be too short and/or the rest periods will be too long to stimulate slowtwitch hypertrophy. Even "strength endurance" work is often recommended to be in the 45-90s range which is still short enough that the predominant energy pathway will not be the aerobic system and therefore the slowtwitch fibres will not be recruited to any great extent.

Instead, most ST will focus on anaerobic efforts (ATP-PCr and glycoltic systems) which rely primarily on fast twitch muslce fibres.

Shane

mr2tony

2011-11-14 8:00 AM

in reply to: #3899128

Champion

34263

Chicago

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

If you want to lift, lift. If you don't, don't. Will it make you faster? Maybe, maybe not. Will it make you slower? Maybe, maybe not.

Who cares what others say -- just do what you want and don't listen to these self-proclaimed experts. There's no right answer. My guess is if you ask 100 pros what they do, you'll get about a 50-50 split. I personally lift weights (though not with as much frequency as I used to) because I like it and I dont want to look like I need a sandwich all the time.

2011-11-14 8:06 AM

in reply to: #3900924

Champion

9407

Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

mr2tony - 2011-11-14 10:00 AM

If you want to lift, lift. If you don't, don't. Will it make you faster? Maybe, maybe not. Will it make you slower? Maybe, maybe not.

Who cares what others say -- just do what you want and don't listen to these self-proclaimed experts. There's no right answer.

Which is just what many of the "self-proclaimed experts" have said in this thread.

My guess is if you ask 100 pros what they do, you'll get about a 50-50 split.

Which is pretty much completely meaningless when it comes to how an AGer should train.

Shane

My Training Log My Race Log

synthetic

2011-11-14 10:21 AM

in reply to: #3900505

Extreme Veteran

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Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

jashac - 2011-11-13 6:12 PM

A thought which is just a bit off topic - Lots and lots of endurance training can encourage your body to shed un-needed muscle. Take a look at some of the top endurance athletes, they are quite thin.

If you don't want to do this with your body, or if you're aging and want to fight muscle loss, weight lifting may be what you want to add to your s/b/r.

they have the potential same muscle mass of a natural body builder, but the muscle cells are drained of nutrients, water - which causes them to stretch. Many sprinters do olympic lifts; Crossfit workouts are meant to increase vo2 max.

It definitely helps, and prevents burn out - reprogrammihg the body does help break plateaus

2011-11-14 10:42 AM

in reply to: #3901164

Pro

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Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

synthetic - 2011-11-14 11:21 AM

jashac - 2011-11-13 6:12 PM

A thought which is just a bit off topic - Lots and lots of endurance training can encourage your body to shed un-needed muscle. Take a look at some of the top endurance athletes, they are quite thin.

If you don't want to do this with your body, or if you're aging and want to fight muscle loss, weight lifting may be what you want to add to your s/b/r.

they have the potential same muscle mass of a natural body builder, but the muscle cells are drained of nutrients, water - which causes them to stretch.

Huh?

Many sprinters do olympic lifts; Crossfit workouts are meant to increase vo2 max.

Even Crossfit doesn't make that claim. CF is for general fitness, not increasing VO2 max. From crossfit.com: "Our program delivers a fitness that is, by design, broad, general, and inclusive. Our specialty is not specializing."

It definitely helps, and prevents burn out - reprogrammihg the body does help break plateaus

Plateaus occur when the body adapts to the current training load, and the load is not increased. In other words, without progressive overload, fitness gains will eventually stop. "Reprogramming the body" to break plateaus sounds like the misconception that is muscle confusion. Muscle confusion is a misinterpretation of the principle of progressive overload.

Edited by TriMyBest 2011-11-14 10:46 AM

bzgl40

2011-11-14 10:51 AM

in reply to: #3901164

Payson, AZ

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

synthetic - 2011-11-14 8:21 AM

jashac - 2011-11-13 6:12 PM

A thought which is just a bit off topic - Lots and lots of endurance training can encourage your body to shed un-needed muscle. Take a look at some of the top endurance athletes, they are quite thin.

If you don't want to do this with your body, or if you're aging and want to fight muscle loss, weight lifting may be what you want to add to your s/b/r.

It definitely helps, and prevents burn out - reprogrammihg the body does help break plateaus

Just when I thought the thread was about to die off...

My Training Log My Race Log

synthetic

2011-11-14 11:14 AM

in reply to: #3901198

Extreme Veteran

389

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

TriMyBest - 2011-11-14 10:42 AM

synthetic - 2011-11-14 11:21 AM

jashac - 2011-11-13 6:12 PM

A thought which is just a bit off topic - Lots and lots of endurance training can encourage your body to shed un-needed muscle. Take a look at some of the top endurance athletes, they are quite thin.

If you don't want to do this with your body, or if you're aging and want to fight muscle loss, weight lifting may be what you want to add to your s/b/r.

they have the potential same muscle mass of a natural body builder, but the muscle cells are drained of nutrients, water - which causes them to stretch.

Huh?

Many sprinters do olympic lifts; Crossfit workouts are meant to increase vo2 max.

It definitely helps, and prevents burn out - reprogrammihg the body does help break plateaus

because of the various exercises the typical bench mark is the 5k run and 1rm attempts for clean, and deadlift (but for me, since I have a damaged disk I cant do the lifting part as high as I wish)

Edited by synthetic 2011-11-14 11:15 AM

2011-11-14 11:33 AM

in reply to: #3901258

Pro

6011

Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

synthetic - 2011-11-14 12:14 PM

TriMyBest - 2011-11-14 10:42 AM

synthetic - 2011-11-14 11:21 AM

jashac - 2011-11-13 6:12 PM

A thought which is just a bit off topic - Lots and lots of endurance training can encourage your body to shed un-needed muscle. Take a look at some of the top endurance athletes, they are quite thin.

If you don't want to do this with your body, or if you're aging and want to fight muscle loss, weight lifting may be what you want to add to your s/b/r.

they have the potential same muscle mass of a natural body builder, but the muscle cells are drained of nutrients, water - which causes them to stretch.

Huh?

Many sprinters do olympic lifts; Crossfit workouts are meant to increase vo2 max.

It definitely helps, and prevents burn out - reprogrammihg the body does help break plateaus

because of the various exercises the typical bench mark is the 5k run and 1rm attempts for clean, and deadlift (but for me, since I have a damaged disk I cant do the lifting part as high as I wish)

Half the time I have no idea what you're talking about, Synthetic, but I'm like a moth to a flame. I just can't stop reading your posts.

paulieman

2011-11-14 12:46 PM

in reply to: #3900108

Veteran

203

Traveling

Subject: RE: Incorporating strength training into triathlon training

bscholes - 2011-11-13 4:35 PMTalk about a confusing subject without a consensus. Dave Scott is a huge proponent of strength training; Macca never touched it. Two all-time greats with completely different thoughts on the subject. The more I read about endurance training, the more i think its not so much WHAT you do, but that you DO whatever you are doing consistently for x days or years running. This sport appears to have several routes to success, all of them involving consistent work. If you think strength training will help you stay injury free or bike harder or longer, then by all means do it. This is a super unclear area of triathlon with no clear roadmap.

Macca does strength train and recommends increasing it as you age to make up with power what you lose on speed and flexibility. See chapter 13 of his book.