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2011-11-21 5:16 AM

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Subject: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
I'm wondering if anyone can point me to any research supporting high frequency/low intensity running (the Barry P and/or "run lots, mostly easy" approach)? I KNOW it works for me.... I'm trying to convince some other folks I train with to give it a try. I keep hearing "I can't run every day". *I* know that the reason is likely that they are trying to run either too hard or too long on their 3-4x/week runs if they are saying that, but it's hard to convince them otherwise. Have there been any studies done supporting this training approach?

Thanks!


2011-11-21 6:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
I don't know of any specific data or research per se. I've mostly got just anecdotal evidence, I guess.

If I had to guess, I'd say the reason for the lack of formal research in this area is that there are a lot of variables involved, the study itself would have to extend for a good number of years, and the fact that any training you do has an effect on all future training and performance.

In other words, scientifically speaking, you're going to have a difficult case to make one way or the other.
2011-11-21 8:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

jsnowash - 2011-11-21 4:16 AM I'm wondering if anyone can point me to any research supporting high frequency/low intensity running (the Barry P and/or "run lots, mostly easy" approach)? I KNOW it works for me.... I'm trying to convince some other folks I train with to give it a try. I keep hearing "I can't run every day". *I* know that the reason is likely that they are trying to run either too hard or too long on their 3-4x/week runs if they are saying that, but it's hard to convince them otherwise. Have there been any studies done supporting this training approach? Thanks!

I agree with what Scout is saying. Your proof is really how the successful racers have trained. Pick up a book like 'Running with the Legends' by Mike Sandrock. Great stories in there of how the greats trained. You will see first hand that many have trained every day for years to make improvement, be successful and to win at the highest levels. 

If you can convince them to even run 10 minutes on days 4, 5, and 6 of the week, it will make a difference. Hope this helps somewhat. It's hard to convince people when they already have their minds made up. 

2011-11-21 8:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
I agree with Scout and Mike and while not scientific, I would suggest that you could suggest they investigate the training principles in the books of successful run coaches as they all present basically the same information. Lots of easy running and some key harder workouts at the appropriate times. I would siggest that Daniels is a great place to start and there is also a great pdf that Scout has linked before regarding Lydiard's approach to run training.

Shane
2011-11-21 10:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

The results speak for themselves. Virtually every top distance runner at every level uses the same approach. Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. The run lots part of the top runners often exceeds 70, 80, 90, 100+ miles/week for long periods of time. Mostly easy is 60-120 seconds per mile slower than race pace and makes up 80+ percent of the volume. The higher intensity stuff makes up the balance and varies depending on the race distance. Top people in 5K to marathon often are very close in the number of miles run, only differing on how they do their faster/harder efforts.

Running every day is actually much easier than people think. It allows for breaking the weekly volume into smaller chunks and when those chunks are done mostly easy there are no real recovery costs. Plus it's easy to build volume simply by adding just a little very day.

The thing to ask your friends is what Dr. Phil says:, "How's that working for ya?" If they're satisfied with their results then they don't have much motivation to change.

2011-11-21 12:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

30 years ago we called it the "Lydiard Method".  There are probably tons of studies supporting the value.  But you sound like what you are really trying to find is a study that compares every day easy mileage for a triathlete when compared to the more traditional 3x per week runs.

I don't think a study like that exists.



2011-11-21 2:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
Is it a thing where time is a limiter for them? I know for me I don't have time to train every day and even much time during the days I do train.
2011-11-21 2:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
ubersteiny - 2011-11-21 3:15 PM

Is it a thing where time is a limiter for them? I know for me I don't have time to train every day and even much time during the days I do train.


Time may be a factor to some degree, but I think it's more the mentality of "if I get hurt running 3 days/week, why on earth would I want to run 5, 6, or 7 days/week?" It's hard for people to wrap their heads around the idea that they might get hurt less if they run more frequently. Some of these folks can occasionally have a tendency to want to turn training runs into races, so that doesn't help either.....

2011-11-21 3:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

jsnowash - 2011-11-21 2:45 PM
ubersteiny - 2011-11-21 3:15 PM Is it a thing where time is a limiter for them? I know for me I don't have time to train every day and even much time during the days I do train.
Time may be a factor to some degree, but I think it's more the mentality of "if I get hurt running 3 days/week, why on earth would I want to run 5, 6, or 7 days/week?" It's hard for people to wrap their heads around the idea that they might get hurt less if they run more frequently. Some of these folks can occasionally have a tendency to want to turn training runs into races, so that doesn't help either.....

I am pretty sure there is a study released this year that shows triathletes have more running injuries than runners.  That would be strong evidence that 6-7 days of running is less injurious than 3-4 days. 

Triathletes feel that every run must be a 'quality' run because their training schedule only gives them 3 or so runs per week.  There's LONG, there's SPEED and there's TEMPO.  Boom, hurt.

Runners know that most of their runs must be easy.  And those runners that are doing 2 or more workouts per week that are a little harder have usually worked their way there over years of dialy running.

 

2011-11-21 3:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
JeffY - 2011-11-21 1:36 PM

30 years ago we called it the "Lydiard Method".



We still do.
2011-11-21 3:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
JeffY - 2011-11-21 1:10 PM

jsnowash - 2011-11-21 2:45 PM
ubersteiny - 2011-11-21 3:15 PM Is it a thing where time is a limiter for them? I know for me I don't have time to train every day and even much time during the days I do train.
Time may be a factor to some degree, but I think it's more the mentality of "if I get hurt running 3 days/week, why on earth would I want to run 5, 6, or 7 days/week?" It's hard for people to wrap their heads around the idea that they might get hurt less if they run more frequently. Some of these folks can occasionally have a tendency to want to turn training runs into races, so that doesn't help either.....

I am pretty sure there is a study released this year that shows triathletes have more running injuries than runners.  That would be strong evidence that 6-7 days of running is less injurious than 3-4 days. 

Triathletes feel that every run must be a 'quality' run because their training schedule only gives them 3 or so runs per week.  There's LONG, there's SPEED and there's TEMPO.  Boom, hurt.

Runners know that most of their runs must be easy.  And those runners that are doing 2 or more workouts per week that are a little harder have usually worked their way there over years of dialy running.

Not scientific...just "n=1"...but there's no question in my case I've had more injuries running 3 - 4 x week as a triathlete than when I was running 7 days/week previously.  I don't find it to be a function of the "hard" runs (threshold, interval, hills) as much as weekend long runs not supported by enough volume the rest of the week.



2011-11-21 3:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

I'm unsure as to the literature on this as well, but add me to the list of believers.

I recently switched from running about 4 times per week to running 6x, and I'm feeling amazingly good.  As recently as September I was having piriformis/hamstring issues, shin issues, and a knee that liked to complain.  Since switching over into running nearly every day?  NOTHING HURTS.  I know it's only been a month or so, but I'm hooked.

2011-11-21 5:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
Drive it home that they'd not be running more, just more often. If their body can handle 20mpw, it should be *easier* on the body to spread it over 6 days than 3 (or 1).
2011-11-21 5:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

Lydiard:

http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/Arthur_Lydiard.htm

Good free source to get you started.

I like that, Daniels Running Formula and then Pfitzinger as the 3 main running sources.  They have it pretty well covered.

2011-11-21 5:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
Hate to go against the grain but....for me I don't really see that it makes much difference. I've run more mileage/more days this fall than last training for a half marathon, and don't see that the hamstring/piriformis issues that bother me are any better. Nor do they seem any worse, which is a good thing. Really don't feel like I'm any faster. My "easy" runs are just that--pretty slow. I can manage to do a harder run 1-2 times a week, which is what I did when I ran 3-4 times a week. In neither case did I get any acute injuries. Will let you know if it actually made me faster in a few weeks after the race. Maybe I'm an odd case--this body has a ton of miles on it . If it were a car, it would be time to trade in for a new model! I don't know if I'd try to run 5-6 days a week when tri training or not-there'd have to be a really clear improvement in speed to make it worth it.
2011-11-21 5:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

I'm a believer myself. But unfortunately, the "everybody's doing it" argument and the "top runners do it" argument don't give us what the OP is looking for. The first argument doesn't show much. And the one about top runners doesn't tell us how to translate the training of a 100-120 mpw pro into a plan for a 30-50 mpw AGer. Copy the proportions of high/low intensity work? Or copy the "key workouts", thereby increasing the proportion of high intensity work? Either seems like a reasonable extrapolation.

I can't offer any controlled data to help. I imagine that it would be difficult to study the question that we're interested in here, especially because questions of injury susceptibility tend to require much larger study samples than are needed for questions about VOTmax increase and its ilk. 

The argument that I find most persuasive in regard to injury prevention is the observation that the body fares better when stresses are not concentrated in a small number of bouts each week. Reducing the stress of each individual workout, and following a plan that requires rapid recovery from each workout, is an easy concept to grasp.

Then there's the separate question of whether there's any benefit beyond injury prevention. Folks are naturally skeptical of the idea that you can get faster by just running easy. (And it doesn't help that we triathletes are singing the praises of hard intervals for biking and swimming.) Perhaps a key here is that the body's ability to sustain prolonged pounding is a key limiter in running, in addition to aerobic capacity. That is, presumably, why running for 3-4 hours in a marathon is harder than biking at an identical HR for the same length of time. 



2011-11-21 6:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

Honestly, I'm not sure a study would help much anyway because of a lot of things Colin mentioned. These guys have the preconceived notion that they need to work hard and that reducing the daily mileage (even though weekly would remain or increase) is seen as a step backwards. They don't want to say that their run each day is less than what they have been doing. After so many years of the "no pain no gain" mantra, it's hard for me to believe just how good I'm supposed to feel after most of the runs (and I know I'm not the only one). And that I should still have something left over after the hard ones.

Unless someone is really open minded they will tend to believe information that tells them what they want to hear anyway.

Something that may work is to continue doing what you're doing. Show that it does work. Let them keep going, see what happens when the plateau. Ask them what they're going to change to keep the improvements coming. Some things just take time to believe. This approach isn't that different from running itself. Consistent improvement over the long term. Not trying to win something immediately.



Edited by brigby1 2011-11-21 6:38 PM
2011-11-21 7:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
brigby1 - 2011-11-21 7:34 PM

These guys have the preconceived notion that they need to work hard.

(I'm not disagreeing with you, just using this statement as a launching point.)

Or are they afraid of what is truly hard?  Running every day is very challenging, both mentally and logistically, especially when it is not the case that each run is a (so-called) 'key' workout (an overrated concept, IMO).

(I don't exempt myself from this problem.  I used to have it in running, and I still have it in the pool.  I talk myself into the idea that erratic and short, though somewhat intense, sessions in the pool are just as good as more consistent training.   It ain't so.)

Injury -- it's a no-brainer.  Really.  Someone already said it:  the same mileage spread out over more sessions is less, not more, likely to lead to injury, especially when the intensity is (overall) less.

On the issue of actual fitness gains it is easier to see how one might be skeptical.   I have one theoretical point to make, and one practical suggestion.

The theoretical point is that running easier most of the time allows one to make the hard sessions truly hard.  If you beat yourself down every time you run, there really is no such thing as a 'hard' session.  (They might feel hard, but that's because you are beat up, not because you are truly going hard.  There's a difference between 'this hurts' and 'I am putting a very strong effort'.)

The practical point is that it really isn't that hard to learn that it actually takes very little speedwork (in whatever form) to reap the benefits of the 'sometimes hard' part of the truism.  (That's only part of the story, I agree, and the other part is more about the long-term and so probably more difficult to learn.)  Honestly, I think that if most people tried it for a month they would see the point.  Go one month running 6-7 times per week (however short is necessary to achieve that frequency).  Twice during the month, do a hard session (intervals, tempo, I don't care) that constitutes around 3% of total mileage for that week.  Yes, that's short, but do it HARD.  Everything else is ridiculously, embarrassingly, easy (as in, "I don't want my grandmother to see me running this slowly" easy).  Honestly compare yourself at the end of that month with yourself at the end of a month (equal mileage) where you ran 'hard' every time to 'make it count'.

I really do think that a month is all it takes to see the difference.

2011-11-21 8:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

I know it has been said before, but it is really hard to run easy.

2 days ago I did an hour with my wife.  Her easy run is around 13 minute mile.  She was doing 12-13 minute mile for the first 45 minutes or so. (Later she put in some really good fartleks and got below 10 a few times).

I was able to stay with her for the first 1/2 mile, but slowly I would pull ahead.  I stopped for a few minutes a few times, and walked 1/4th of a mile at another so not to get too far ahead/behind. 

I was able to run around a 12 minute mile at the low end, and that is what I wanted... to have someone to pace off of to go slow.

Today, I ran by myself.  I tried to repeat that easy run.  And, I did better than normal.  But I still couldn't go easier than a 10:34.  I started at 12, but the next time I looked at my watch I was sub 11.  I slowed down, but the speed creeps back up.

For comparison my last (really my only) stand alone 5k was in the mid 9s.  My really hard efforts can break below 9, but not for a sustained effort.  But I feel like I get injured running that hard, and right now I'm aware of a number of tender spots (knees and shins monstly) that I think might be from running too hard when the weather cooled down.

So to the OP on top of wanting to race every run, and wanting to brag on the numbers (and I have some guilt in both of these), it isn't easy to run easy... at least not when you are a relatively new runner.

2011-11-21 10:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
Fear, doubt, disbelief. You have to let it all go Neo.
2011-11-21 11:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

This is a bit informal to call it "data" - we're often reminded that the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'  Wink

But the coaches who run the endurance sports group at my Y are strong advocates of high volume, with almost all low intensity. There are a lot of very accomplished triathletes in this group and it has certainly worked for them. Once a week they will do a longer run, still at fairly low intensity. The other runs are almost always intervals that include a lot of aerobic, comfortable chatting pace, with short intervals of higher speeds - often reverting to a short walking recovery after going speedy. The other thing they do is once a week run-focused strength training and muscle activation drills.

One thing this regimen has really helped me with is improving my technique (although that is partly just a function of running with coaching feedback). But I do believe this approach creates the best results with the least amount of wear and tear. Important to keep this last factor in mind, because nobody's very fast sitting on the couch with an injury.

 



2011-11-22 1:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

I am quite stunned.  I recently have adapted to a 6x week running schedule from doing years of 3x - 4x a week.  Totally counter-intuitive.  I feel great!

 

2011-11-22 1:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
I am a 3 run per week guy since October 2008 when I started running. No background really in running. Its gone well and I continue to post PRs and get faster. I have had tendonitis (trained through it till it healed) and still nurse mild PF. My mileage has been mid 20s per week until IM training this summer when I peaked at no more than 40 a few times. I continue to get faster. So, having said that, I love to run so I'll drink the cool aid and see if I continue to see improvements at 42. I am hoping to BQ in Feb.

Edited by TriFlorida 2011-11-22 1:45 PM
2011-11-22 3:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?

jsnowash - 2011-11-21 1:45 PM
ubersteiny - 2011-11-21 3:15 PM Is it a thing where time is a limiter for them? I know for me I don't have time to train every day and even much time during the days I do train.
Time may be a factor to some degree, but I think it's more the mentality of "if I get hurt running 3 days/week, why on earth would I want to run 5, 6, or 7 days/week?" It's hard for people to wrap their heads around the idea that they might get hurt less if they run more frequently. Some of these folks can occasionally have a tendency to want to turn training runs into races, so that doesn't help either.....

Then explain to them that if they are getting hurt running 3 times a week, then they are running too hard and their bodies are not able to do that type of running.

It's basically all that was done to me. I had the exact same reservations.... and then it was explained to me.  I thought  I was just going to be running the same way I was twice as much. Obviously that is not going to make much sense.

When it was explained, and I did it, it makes perfect sense... I didn't need a study or any scientific data... I was just willing to give it a try. I'm a believer.



Edited by powerman 2011-11-22 3:21 PM
2011-11-22 8:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Any data supporting high frequency/low intensity running?
Here's a link one of the coaches in my club sent me:


The key to remaining injury free in the run is frequency and not intensity. Here is a good article about how to build your body to be durable. http://www.endurancecorner.com/library/running/30_day_run_camp
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