Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool

This could get ugly...  (Sometimes when this issue arises, there is some, um, passion.)

My personal experience is this, and I'm keeping it to my personal experience because I really don't know the answer to your question.  Let's take today.  My main set finished with 4x50 all-out (after a bunch of hard swimming prior to that).  I felt like crying on the last 50.  I'm not making that up.  I did try to focus on form, but I have little doubt that it had fallen apart pretty badly by the end.

Now, some will say that I was 'practicing bad form' and others will say that I was 'gaining fitness'.  I think of it in somewhat different terms -- I was trying (largely failing, but trying) to maintain good form while completely exhausted.  The hope that I hold out for myself is that by allowing myself to get to that point on a regular basis, I will actually get better at holding form while exhausted.  And I also think that there is little doubt about achieving increased fitness in these sessions, which can't hurt.

Caveat:  I'm a very mediocre swimmer and have zero training or experience as a swim coach.

You're a long time runner, so I would guess that you've done 'epic' run workouts where, at the end, you feel like lying down and adopting the fetal position.  And you know that such workouts have to be very rare as a runner, or you'll end up in a boot for 6 months.  What you and I both might want to embrace ('might' because, as I said, I'm completely a rank amateur here, and you shouldn't take my word for it) is that swimming does not work the same way; 'epic' can be more of a regular occurrence.  The main injury issue (which is not trivial) is that a lot of swimming hard with certain types of poor form can cause overuse injuries. 

When the 3x300 went up on the board and you knew you were going to be in for a hard time, you could have asked the coach what sort of rest you should be getting.  If he said (for example) 30 seconds then I would have done the best effort possible to make the first 300 while focusing your thoughts 100% on those aspects of your stroke that tend to break down on you.  If you make the time, great!  Try again for #2!  You might surprise yourself and make all 3, you might not but you've given yourself the opportunity to practice holding your form while tired.  If you don't make the time, take the 30" rest prescribed by the coach but still put in a strong effort focusing on your technique.  I wouldn't switch to the pull buoy unless things have reached a complete breakdown.  See rules 18 and 19 in the link below.

http://joelfilliol.blogspot.com/2012/01/most-popular-post-on-this-blog-is-is.html?spref=tw

Good luck with your swimming!

What Michael and Axenhottie, er, Arend, er axteraa said.

I think the fact that you even GOT to the point where you hung your head in defeat is commendable ... and necessary.

This is the swim advice I gave someone once who wanted to improve:

"For a season, better a year, put AT LEAST four 1.5 hour sessions (or equivalent) in masters style workouts where you really are considering vomiting, crying, and/or quitting at least once a week (preferably once a session). Then, keep going."

I have a question back for your question ... when you grabbed the buoy for the final 200, do you mean you couldn't "get it back together" to keep at the pace you were going, or your form had truly broken down so badly you were just about swimming backward, or ... ?

There is some good advice here and I'll add to it, although it may not be good.

If you are using a buoy to just finish the set you need to examine why a 300 is such an issue.  I'd say you should spend the time working on technique as opposed to just slapping on the buoy to finish.  There won't be a buoy in your race and it does an excellent job of disguising stroke issues.  I'd suggest 50 drill/50 stroke on the 300s to make progress.

One poster said that using fins helps your kick and body position.  This is a common myth and incredibly untrue.  Fins do nothing to help your kick.  In my opinion fins should only be used on fin load sets, never to make an interval or just keep up.  If you can kick with fins but not without them, you simply can't kick.  I don't think you need a great strong kick for long distances but you do need a balanced kick.  

Well ... it wasn't quite backward. I could feel myself losing any semblance of a horizontal position ... and struggling to return. I rallied once or twice but felt like I was just flailing to do so. I'm sure it wasn't as bad as it felt, but it just seemed that my form was done. I wasn't really worried about pace at that time ... just wanted to put in the distance. So I figured that the buoy would allow me to get back to horizontal and at least use the final 200 to focus on my roll while fatigued.

But I think it's stated correctly above that I used it for a crutch.

I think it's absolutely good to push yourself to the brink, even in swimming. If you're going so hard/long that you can barely do another set, even a measly 25, you're doing something RIGHT. 

Even as a slow noob myself when I was over 2:15/100yd, I disagree that there is no value to going hard on your workouts because you 'ingrain bad form.' When you're that slow, your form breaks down so quickly from fatigue that the only way to make substantive improvements is to HTFU. 

What you DO need to do is remember that the more you fatigue, and the more painful it gets, the less excuse you have to get sloppy. You have to really, really try and keep those strokes long, and the body position flat. Yes, it makes going hard on the swim harder than going hard on the run/bike where you can just 'grit it', but unless you do that, you will plateau very quickly on the swim, even with correct form.

If you're so tired that you can't possibly maintain correct form, slow down or ok, use that buoy. (I'd be impressed if you're so tired that you can't even swim a 2:40 100 with essentially correct form.) 

I do think you should re-evaluate the role of your kick and learn to swim WITHOUT a significant kick. It does sound as if you are over-relying on your kick to keep the legs up, which is expending extra energy. If you learn to swim with a minimal two-beat kick, you'll find that you can push yourself to the brink and leg dropping will never be an issue. (The arm fatigue and cardio fatigue will be big limiters.)

Yup. I'm trying to decrease that reliance but progressing slowly. It has been sometime since I've reviewed video on the 2 beat, but I think it might be something I should be applying more focus to.

So, instead of working, I'm re-reading and reviewing video on the 2 beat. I came across this beautiful example of a pro 2 beat right next to a pro 6 beat. Amazing.

Linky-poo

I have nothing to add, but I love "Linky-poo"

I'll never disagree with the importance of learning and practicing good swimming form, that said, this seems incredibly wrong to me. 

I've only had two short swims this year after essentially taking a year off from swimming.  I know my swim fitness is in the toilet.  I'm going to get tired quickly and my form will break down.  However, if I continue until I'm tired or even exhausted I'm gaining valuable endurance, endurance that I can use to work on my form during future swims.  If I stop at the first sign of fatigue it'll take way too long for me to achieve the volume I need to train appropriately for my races.

I also struggle with a bad kick.  I've been going to a swim coach for the last couple weeks and working on all of the balance/pull drills but he says my problem is my kick.  We did a TT last night and I came in at 2:35.  Bad, I know.

I'd never tried using fins or bouys until these coaching sessions but find I could too easily rely on them when I start to fatigue.  I also struggle with whether to keep going at the end of my swim sessions when I'm tired and my form starts to fall apart.  I do believe that form becomes habit pretty quickly  (i.e. after I do a catch-up drill it takes me a few length to get back to a regular stroke) so I am leary to keep going when my form starts to fall apart.

Not much help for your question but just to say all of us non-swimmer noobs struggle with this stuff. 

SWEET... I'm right on track!

What endurance is to be gained from swimming like crap?  If you are just starting out the goal isn't to power your way to an exhausting horrible form session.  Work on technique primarily.

Of course you will fatigue as you swim longer and longer.  That is true for everyone.  But, the point is to not swim fatigued where your technique is so bad that you are actually not improving at all.  Endurance does not trump technique.  And, just remember the better your form, the more endurance you gain.  

I see the same triathletes year after year come in, swim 2-3K with horrible form, get out gasping and are proud of themselves for the distance.  If only they would spend a few months tuning their form things would be so much easier.

There are plenty of failure point swim sets out there designed to swim you to oblivion (the Swedish 2:01 is my favorite of these) but you have to have good form.

I haven't finished reading through the thread yet, but this ^^^^^^^^

I would much rather see you swim 3 x 250 without a buoy or fins just to keep up, than rely on those tools just to finish the set.   Buoy and fins should be used (IMO only) as tools to develop certain skills, not to keep up with the set.

Often if we have swimmers that can't make certain intervals they'll knock a 50 off and wait at the wall while others finish.

And hopefully everyone here has experienced that feeling of your arms falling off and lungs exploding and feeling like you're just thrashing through the water at the end of a particularly hard set, no matter your speed

I hear all the warnings about not swimming with terrible form, but I've found that as long as you're cognizant about trying to maintain your form, even if you're totally gassed, you will still be able to mentally will yourself to keep a fundamentally solid stroke. It hurts like heck sometimes, but those are the moments that really improve your overall swim fitness AND technique. I have never, ever gone to the point where I'm just thrashing in the pool, and I've done sets so hard that I've nearly passed out in the lane.

I have seen folks who just 'bang out' sets with poor technique in the pool, for months - in most cases, those folks aren't interested in getting faster or actually improving their technique, and are in it for just a solid workout. I don't think those swimmers share the same goals as triathletes who are actively trying to get faster in the water, through fitness and technique, and I don't think it's quite accurate to use them as examples of why you should avoid hard efforts, even at the cost of some technique breakdown, in the pool.