Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks
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2012-02-08 7:00 AM |
Extreme Veteran 442 | Subject: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks I read your recent article about Bricks and I completely agree with your logical conclusions and most certainly trust your years of coaching experience. However, in the article you primarily address the effects of bricks on developing "speed". For many newer athletes that are training for their first or second HIM or IM, speed is a secondary concern. Their primary focus is on endurance. Keeping in mind that a rest/easy day(s) can be scheduled the day(s) after a long brick, do your conclusions also apply to developing endurance? Please elaborate. Thank You! |
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2012-02-08 8:57 AM in reply to: #4035343 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Rich may give you his response, but the basic answer is that endurance is built through the sum of all your training (not just the long days) and a brick is no more effective in building endurance than any other training. Doing a few 'big' training days for newer athletes can often be a good idea because it helps build confidence in their training. But relying on doing a lot of that in a training program generally leads to wasted training time on those rest/easy day(s). That is, by doing more in a single hard workout the athlete ends up doing less over time. And it's the 'over time' piece that matters most in building endurance. |
2012-02-08 11:07 AM in reply to: #4035343 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Rick Strauss In summary, we’ve learned :
The first statement is virtually inarguable, but essentially unrelated to the subject at hand, which are bricks. Many fit athletes have a poor run because poor race execution. But don't blame the training bricks for that! The second statement is much more directed at bricks. I argue that if you're running slowly on tired legs, then you're doing your bricks wrong. And bricks are one of many tools in the training drawer. Fast runs, intervals, fartleks, long race pace runs, bricks - all have their place. I think bricks are a time-efficient way to build base; it's why I like Fink's plans. In fact today I have one of his typical early week bricks: a 30 minute bike / 15 minute run both in Z2. I will not be running slowly on tired legs. Edited by brucemorgan 2012-02-08 11:09 AM |
2012-02-08 11:49 AM in reply to: #4035343 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks I use what I call transition runs....just the first mile or up to 15 minutes after a bike session... Doing 10-15 minutes of an easy run after a bike is a great way to work the "transition" period without creating unnecessary fatigue. |
2012-02-08 12:48 PM in reply to: #4035962 |
Veteran 113 | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Thanks for the discussion! A few notes:
Finally, I want to step back and make a broader comment about all of us as triathletes. If you look at the mass of discussion and material out there centered on "how to train" stuff, you'll see that it significantly outweighs the "how to race" stuff. As a result, we are culturally conditioned to seek a training solution to perceived problems: "I had a poor swim, bike, or run, ergo, the solution is obviously to SBR differently in some way -- longer, harder, faster, this or that special workout, etc." So as a doode who's put more than a few athletes across IM finishlines and has been to 4-6x IM's every year since 2002 -- standing on the bike course, at mile 1 or 18 of the run course -- these are my observations:
In my experience, THESE race execution mistakes are much more the cause of running under-performance than some training this that or the other thing that didn't happen. Good stuff, thanks again for the discussion! -- |
2012-02-08 1:06 PM in reply to: #4036090 |
Extreme Veteran 442 | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Thanks to everyone for the excellent responses! Edited by bhc 2012-02-08 1:09 PM |
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2012-02-08 1:07 PM in reply to: #4035343 |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks |
2012-02-08 5:14 PM in reply to: #4035343 |
Extreme Veteran 3177 | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks just wanted to say that this thread here is another reason why I love BT. keep it coming everyone |
2012-02-08 6:33 PM in reply to: #4036090 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Rick, your answer is confusing to me given your article. Your article says "Brick Workouts Have (Limited) Value for the Long Course Triathlete" You prescribe a 1hr swim / 4hr bike / 1hr run "big day" brick. You then say in the post above that a 45-60' brick after a 4-6 hour bike will have those attributes you don't like (slower, tired legs, heat of day, etc). Yet you prescribe exactly that for your athletes. Your approach seems like pretty standard stuff to me, so I'm not getting the "rethinking" part about bricks. Maybe it's just because we're in strenuous agreement about the value of bricks! Edited by brucemorgan 2012-02-08 6:35 PM |
2012-02-08 6:54 PM in reply to: #4036090 |
Master 2563 University Park, MD | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Rich Strauss - 2012-02-08 1:48 PM
Thanks for posting, Rich. These two points are interesting, and I'm not sure that I agree. On the first point (better to do more faster miles), I think that a more common concern is that runners overcook their run speeds in training, doing too many hard/fast miles before they've built the base to effectively tolerate the longer/faster runs that pound the body harder. This increases the injury risk. It's likely a particular concern among AGers who are training for an IM, as they're likely to want to do the long runs needed for marathon training, but less likely to have the time to put in the miles needed to support those long runs. So more steady miles is a good thing for lots of folks. As for doing the runs during the heat of the day, isn't that a key part of race preparation that many of us need? We do most of our running in cooler months or early/late in the day, but need to run off the bike when it's much hotter. Learning how to pace, hydrate, stay cool etc. in those situations is an important part of being ready. |
2012-02-08 6:55 PM in reply to: #4035343 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Rich, can't you simply qualify a brick for what it is, more run volume, and call it a day? |
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2012-02-08 7:45 PM in reply to: #4036843 |
Member 28 Barrington | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Thanks for posting, Rich. These two points are interesting, and I'm not sure that I agree. On the first point (better to do more faster miles), I think that a more common concern is that runners overcook their run speeds in training, doing too many hard/fast miles before they've built the base to effectively tolerate the longer/faster runs that pound the body harder. This increases the injury risk. It's likely a particular concern among AGers who are training for an IM, as they're likely to want to do the long runs needed for marathon training, but less likely to have the time to put in the miles needed to support those long runs. So more steady miles is a good thing for lots of folks. As for doing the runs during the heat of the day, isn't that a key part of race preparation that many of us need? We do most of our running in cooler months or early/late in the day, but need to run off the bike when it's much hotter. Learning how to pace, hydrate, stay cool etc. in those situations is an important part of being ready. Colin, thanks for the note. Coach Patrick from Endurance Nation here. From our coaching experience most age groupers targeting Ironman aren't in any danger of running too fast. In fact, most sign on to a long slow distance program. With multiple 5k swim workouts and long rides, there is very little energy left to overdo the run. This is why so many folks show up on race day with over-use injuries, not acute injuries due to intensity, etc. Our approach, of which the brick workout strategy is a part of, is to not bury athletes with volume to the point of mediocrity across all three disciplines. As for preparing for running in the heat of the day, our experience says that once you have figured that out, you've got it (drink more, wear hat, pace drops by X, etc). The quality of that run as a training stress exercise is compromised because it happens, repeatedly, at a sub-optimal time. It's not bad, we're just saying it could be better. Hope that helps! |
2012-02-08 7:47 PM in reply to: #4036846 |
Member 28 Barrington | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks bryancd - 2012-02-08 6:55 PM Rich, can't you simply qualify a brick for what it is, more run volume, and call it a day? Our broader point is that it doesn't just have to be more volume, but that you can choose to make it a better run. More better runs per week across many weeks = improved run fitness, etc. |
2012-02-08 8:54 PM in reply to: #4036939 |
Master 2563 University Park, MD | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks pmccrann - 2012-02-08 8:45 PM Our approach, of which the brick workout strategy is a part of, is to not bury athletes with volume to the point of mediocrity across all three disciplines. Right. The focus on intensity for swimming and biking is relatively uncontroversial. It's your application of the same approach to running that is more debated. "Burying athletes with volume to the point of mediocrity" sounds like a nice phrase that doesn't really do justice to what's at stake here. Run volume and run intensity both have well documented physiological benefits and real world results, and it's clear that one of those two takes up less time. The question is whether the impact aspect of running is important enough that it tips the balance in favor of volume, due to adaptations to the pounding and lower injury risk. One can argue the science, the results, and the risks, but it can't be trivialized as "running lots makes you mediocre". [quoteAs for preparing for running in the heat of the day, our experience says that once you have figured that out, you've got it (drink more, wear hat, pace drops by X, etc). The quality of that run as a training stress exercise is compromised because it happens, repeatedly, at a sub-optimal time. It's not bad, we're just saying it could be better. Ok, so I don't know the science here, but your claim is, in effect, that training in the heat is all about learning strategies for coping effectively, and presumably that there are no physiological adaptations to the higher temperatures. If there were physiological adaptations, then it would make sense to seek out those adaptations by training in the heat. That's also why lots of Olympic athletes devoted resources before Beijing '08 and Daegu '11 to training in hot and/or humid environments. They were assuming that there would be physiological adaptations, and they weren't merely learning to HTFU. Is there evidence that they are mistaken? |
2012-02-09 7:38 AM in reply to: #4036808 |
Extreme Veteran 442 | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks brucemorgan - 2012-02-08 7:33 PM Rick, your answer is confusing to me given your article. Your article says "Brick Workouts Have (Limited) Value for the Long Course Triathlete" You prescribe a 1hr swim / 4hr bike / 1hr run "big day" brick. You then say in the post above that a 45-60' brick after a 4-6 hour bike will have those attributes you don't like (slower, tired legs, heat of day, etc). Yet you prescribe exactly that for your athletes. Your approach seems like pretty standard stuff to me, so I'm not getting the "rethinking" part about bricks. Maybe it's just because we're in strenuous agreement about the value of bricks! I took his article and post to mean that long bricks have no benefit in developing speed nor endurance. The only reason to do them is to nail down nutrition. Once that has been done, the only value is if one has time constraints, in which case they should be of short duration so that extended rest is not warranted. I look forward to his response. |
2012-02-09 7:54 AM in reply to: #4035343 |
Veteran 203 Traveling | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Love the debate and I am very impressed with the level of knowledge on this board. Thanks to everyone. |
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2012-02-09 8:38 AM in reply to: #4036808 |
Veteran 561 Arden Hills, MN | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks brucemorgan - 2012-02-08 6:33 PM Rick, your answer is confusing to me given your article. Your article says "Brick Workouts Have (Limited) Value for the Long Course Triathlete" You prescribe a 1hr swim / 4hr bike / 1hr run "big day" brick. You then say in the post above that a 45-60' brick after a 4-6 hour bike will have those attributes you don't like (slower, tired legs, heat of day, etc). Yet you prescribe exactly that for your athletes. Your approach seems like pretty standard stuff to me, so I'm not getting the "rethinking" part about bricks. Maybe it's just because we're in strenuous agreement about the value of bricks! I can't speak for EN - but my .02: yes there are still some bricks thrown in for specific workouts but not on week in, week out basis. I don't think it's controversial to see the benefit of doing a long bike/run type of workout a handful of times during your build. It's a great way to make sure nutrition is dialed in, make sure bike pace is appropriate, etc. Of course you have to actually use those long days to learn something...Everytime I did one of those long days the result was the same - my run sucked. Guess what happened on race day? Yup the run sucked. In hindsight it should have been easy to see I was headed for disaster yet I just kept rationalizing those sub par runs (it as hot, i was fatigued, etc) and hoping it wouldn't happen on race day. Bad idea!
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2012-02-09 8:54 AM in reply to: #4036808 |
over a barrier | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks brucemorgan - 2012-02-08 6:33 PM Rick, your answer is confusing to me given your article. Your article says "Brick Workouts Have (Limited) Value for the Long Course Triathlete" You prescribe a 1hr swim / 4hr bike / 1hr run "big day" brick. You then say in the post above that a 45-60' brick after a 4-6 hour bike will have those attributes you don't like (slower, tired legs, heat of day, etc). Yet you prescribe exactly that for your athletes. Your approach seems like pretty standard stuff to me, so I'm not getting the "rethinking" part about bricks. Maybe it's just because we're in strenuous agreement about the value of bricks! The 112/6 are done as race a rehearsal to test bike set up ,clothing, nutrition, target watts/HR, then some flavor of your vdot off the bike. They are done at specific times near the race. The article I believe is related to the week-end-week-out approach to running off the bike all the time. |
2012-02-09 9:37 AM in reply to: #4037056 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks colinphillips - 2012-02-08 9:54 PM Ok, so I don't know the science here, but your claim is, in effect, that training in the heat is all about learning strategies for coping effectively, and presumably that there are no physiological adaptations to the higher temperatures. If there were physiological adaptations, then it would make sense to seek out those adaptations by training in the heat. That's also why lots of Olympic athletes devoted resources before Beijing '08 and Daegu '11 to training in hot and/or humid environments. They were assuming that there would be physiological adaptations, and they weren't merely learning to HTFU. Is there evidence that they are mistaken? There are some adaptations that take place and, I believe, studies have shown that you can get the majority of those benefits by training in similar conditions for a few weeks just prior to your event (I don't recall if there was a more exact period suggested by the studies). That is, you'd still want to do most of your trianing in such a way that you can get the greatest physiological benefit from it (probably not in the heat of the day) but if you expect some unusual conditions (relative to your norm) then you should try to mimic those conditions in workouts over the final weeks. Really, no different that moving to 'race specific' workouts (like some race rehearsals and 'big day' training for IM) in a training plan. |
2012-02-09 9:41 AM in reply to: #4037454 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks bhc - 2012-02-09 8:38 AM I took his article and post to mean that long bricks have no benefit in developing speed nor endurance. You are taking way more than is written, then. |
2012-02-09 9:51 AM in reply to: #4036808 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks brucemorgan - 2012-02-08 7:33 PM Rick, your answer is confusing to me given your article. Your article says "Brick Workouts Have (Limited) Value for the Long Course Triathlete" You prescribe a 1hr swim / 4hr bike / 1hr run "big day" brick. You then say in the post above that a 45-60' brick after a 4-6 hour bike will have those attributes you don't like (slower, tired legs, heat of day, etc). Yet you prescribe exactly that for your athletes. Your approach seems like pretty standard stuff to me, so I'm not getting the "rethinking" part about bricks. Maybe it's just because we're in strenuous agreement about the value of bricks! Those are about the only bricks in their plans (AFAIK)--excluding the option of 'time constraint' bricks, i.e., I run off the bike because if I don't, I won't be able to run later at all. I'm a bigger believer in frequency & volume over intensity in running than they are, so I actually think it's a more reasonable alternative to do more of those off-the-bike runs (20'-30') in order to get some running in that might otherwise not get done. But it all depends on the athlete, their constraints, and the rest of their training program. If you follow an EN-style plan, it's challenging to get the 'quality' that you need (in all 3 sports) if you are doing a lot of bricks within the plan. This is a problem of 'cherry picking' individual workouts and trying to ascribe meaning to them out of their context. It goes back to my first reply in the thread. It's the sum total of your work, not a specific workout that is key to your fitness and race-readiness. And, as Rich points out, even more important is how you use that fitness on race day. Don't get caught in the weeds. |
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2012-02-09 11:19 AM in reply to: #4037837 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Let's summarize, OK?
So far, that's pretty much exactly what my coach, friends, the little angel on my shoulder all say. So I apparently I was ahead of the crowd. |
2012-02-09 11:36 AM in reply to: #4038114 |
Extreme Veteran 442 | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks Only two modifications to clarify: Let's summarize, OK?
So far, that's pretty much exactly what my coach, friends, the little angel on my shoulder all say. So I apparently I was ahead of the crowd.
Edited by bhc 2012-02-09 11:39 AM |
2012-02-09 12:38 PM in reply to: #4038114 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks brucemorgan - 2012-02-09 12:19 PM Let's summarize, OK?
So far, that's pretty much exactly what my coach, friends, the little angel on my shoulder all say. So I apparently I was ahead of the crowd. Nobody's arguing it's revolutionary. Or complicated. Just that there are still a lot of athletes that seem to have trouble with some/all of it. Especially the last part. |
2012-02-09 4:50 PM in reply to: #4038162 |
Veteran 113 | Subject: RE: Question For Rick Strauss Regarding Recent Article On Bricks bhc - 2012-02-09 8:36 AM Only two modifications to clarify: Let's summarize, OK?
So far, that's pretty much exactly what my coach, friends, the little angel on my shoulder all say. So I apparently I was ahead of the crowd.
I'd say this is pretty close but of course there are many, many other discussion topics within that list above: the role of speedwork in IM run training, "big days," the scheduling and execution of race rehearsals, heat adaptation, and much more. And, as you noted, these are bullet points that many experienced Ironman athletes have come around to on their own. We've had these conversations internally and formally/informally with our folks for a while now. But, as Johnny noted and as some discussions here and elsewhere in the triathlon space indicate, many, many athletes, and coaches, are still doing things that more experienced athletes have learned not to do. Thanks for the discussion! |
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