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2006-05-24 3:49 PM

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Subject: Swim speed work
Hi guys,

I'm finding it a bit hard these days to improve my swim times, and would appreciate some input on my training (total beginner, me...)

I do 1500m sessions in the pool (with 10-20 seconds rest every 375m), and usually time between 28-30 minutes. If i've got plenty of energy then i might do it again straight after, and can usually bring it home within 30, second time round.

The problem is that my times don't seem to be coming down, and i always find i get tired really quickly and my form drops. Is my training suitable, or should i break it down into shorter distances, at the expense of endurance? Can anyone suggest some more focussed speed work for the swimming?

Thanks

Gordon.


2006-05-24 4:00 PM
in reply to: #433228

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
Not being a swim expert but with improving times I can suggest more interval work. Try something like 10x100 or 20x50 maintaining same speed throughout. Mixing in various distances with little rest between will definitely help! I'm sure you'll get some great suggestions from other BT'ers
2006-05-24 4:18 PM
in reply to: #433228

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
do some sets. you can check out my log for ideas
2006-05-24 4:22 PM
in reply to: #433228

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
Up your meters and do intervals.

Try the following (along with a 400m warm up and 200m warm down):

3x200 on an interval that will give you 30 sec rest
5x100 on the same interval per 100 as above
6x50 on the same interval per 100 as above

Then move up toward 5x200, 10x100, 10x50

---------

400 - 300 - 200 - 100 - 50 on your normal 100 interval (called a ladder & you can go back up)
10x50 flat out sprints with good rest in between

----------
50-100-150-50-100-150 x 3 (called broken 600s) on an interval 5sec faster per 100 than your normal

----------

50-100-150-200-50-100-150-200-50-100-150-200 (broken 1500) on an interval 5sec faster per 100 than your normal

You may wany to pull some of this, but not more than 25%
2006-05-24 4:43 PM
in reply to: #433228

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work

See above, very good advice.  Your speed doesn't improve becuase you are not doing any speed work.  100 and 200 yd/meter sets, done at a consistent workin ghard pace are good for building speed.  All you are doing now is teaching your muscles how to go long and slow.

Your form is breaking down because your set length is too long.  Again, shorter sets.  you'll need to find a balance between going fast and maintaining your form though, because most people, myself included start losing form the faster they go.

And remember - speed is NOT gained by pushing harder against the water (the water pushes back just as hard) but by learning proper form so you are gliding through the water.  A lot of people swear by Total Immersion techniques.

2006-05-24 5:55 PM
in reply to: #433228

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
I concur with what has been posted above and would like to add:

Drills, Drills and more Drills

Swimming well depends on form and you need to isolate various parts of your stroke so that you can refine and improve your form. Some examples that you may want to incorporate (you can find descriptions of these online) - catchup, fist, pull, isolated arm, kicking, sculling, thumb scrape, finger drag, sewing machine.

Typically, everytime I get in the pool I will do some drill work - often up to 1/3 of my workout is drill related and then I will do intervals for the main set.

Good luck,

Shane


2006-05-24 6:45 PM
in reply to: #433228

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
All the above are good suggestions. I'm not sure what level swimmer you are, but a couple of the most common mistakes I find with people who don't come from a competitive swimming background are as follows:

1. Make sure you're breathing in a relaxed manner. You should be exhaling slowly and comfortably while your head is in the water so that your lungs are almost empty by the time you're ready to turn your head to breathe. Don't "hold your breath" for any part of the stroke - if you're going to breathe every 3 or 4 strokes, it just means you exhale slower.

2. Make sure you're gliding at the top of your stroke when your hand enters the water. You don't have to start your pull immediately when your hand enters. Rather make sure you're gliding a bit, keeping your hand just a few inches under the surface. At this time your other hand should be starting it's recovery out of water - you're not pausing both arms. This is somewhat similar to "catch up" drill, which is a good way to learn the feeling.

Good luck.

-Matt
2006-05-24 9:08 PM
in reply to: #433228

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
A lot of good advice here. The interval training should be very helpful.

Another means of interval training is to "build" within set. For example, swim a 50, start at your 1500 pace and go increasing faster as you go through the 50. By the end, you are going all out. Such sets really give you a feel for your stroke at different intensities and should help you keep your form at higher speeds.

Mix in 50, 100, 150, and 200 yard/meter build sets.

Good luck and happy swimming.
2006-05-24 9:35 PM
in reply to: #433360

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
gsmacleod - 2006-05-25 10:55 AM

Some examples that you may want to incorporate (you can find descriptions of these online) - catchup, fist, pull, isolated arm, kicking, sculling, thumb scrape, finger drag, sewing machine.


Good luck,

Shane


Shane, have oyu got any pics of the Sewing Machine? People have tried to explain it but like all these things I couldn't get it...
2006-05-24 9:40 PM
in reply to: #433228

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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
One more thing, don't do the same distance and measure your speed for the whole workout. It makes you hurry up your warm up and drills section. Measure your speed during your main set. If you want more ideas, check my logs from September to February when I swam for the university. Cheers.
2006-05-24 10:11 PM
in reply to: #433298

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
ChrisM - 2006-05-24 4:43 PM

And remember - speed is NOT gained by pushing harder against the water (the water pushes back just as hard) but by learning proper form so you are gliding through the water. A lot of people swear by Total Immersion techniques.




i disagree with this. i may not be an expert but i was on a competitve team with one of the elite coaches in the country and i was taught that pulling hard can increase your speed and decrease your stroke count. I have found this to be true in my own experience as well. i can do an easy 200 in about 2:25 and take 16 strokes per 25 or i can really focus on pulling hard and go 2:25 and only take 13-14 strokes per 25. (although i must say i am not disagreeing that proper form is not helpful. if you have good form and can pull harder through the water you will go faster with less strokes than with bad form and hard pulls.)

to the OP, a great quote from my coach "if you want to be able to be able to go fast in the 500 you have to be able to go fast in the 100" what he's saying here is no matter how much endurance you have if you cant sprint then you wont be able to maintain a fast pace in a longer event. some great excercises for increasing this are 15x100 on an interval that gives you about 1-1:15 rest on every fast one and about 30-45 on every easy one. You do them in cycles of 3. The first one is all out. the next 2 are to recover. do this 5 times. the fast one's should be able to add up to faster than your 500 time. so if your goal 500 is 6:30 then you should be able to beat 1:15 on every fast one. another set that i really believe helped my distance training was 3x300 building each one until the last one is all out.

most important thing about swimming is technique, technique, technique. anyone can train alot but the fastest people have the best technique.


2006-05-24 10:52 PM
in reply to: #433538

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work

I' not sure I see the logic in this.  It seems analogous to cadence on the bike.  You can spin easy but relatively fast or hard with a lower cadence to achieve the same speed/power output.  There are consequences to pulling harder...like potentially burning out your fast twitch fibers, starting to burn off valuable glycogen, and potentially increasing lactate accumulation prematurely.  If I can go just as fast by stroking easier then you better bet that's what I'll be doing.  What exactly are you gaining by "saving" 2-3 strokes assuming your requiring your muscles to work harder to cut that stroke count down for the same speed?  For most of us there is a lot more potential in working on efficiency over brute force in the water.  That being said, I think the OP should start to incorporate shorter intervals and swimming sets instead of just going long.  There is a great little workout guide called Swim Workouts in a Binder.  It's waterproof and has over a hundred specific workouts divided up into categories to focus on endurance, force, muscular endurance, anaerobic threshold, etc.

Swimmer3 - 2006-05-24 11:11 PM
i disagree with this. i may not be an expert but i was on a competitve team with one of the elite coaches in the country and i was taught that pulling hard can increase your speed and decrease your stroke count. I have found this to be true in my own experience as well. i can do an easy 200 in about 2:25 and take 16 strokes per 25 or i can really focus on pulling hard and go 2:25 and only take 13-14 strokes per 25.

2006-05-24 10:58 PM
in reply to: #433526

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work

Not a p[ic but here is a good description of the sewing machine:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=782744;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

AusVirgin - 2006-05-24 10:35 PM
gsmacleod - 2006-05-25 10:55 AM Some examples that you may want to incorporate (you can find descriptions of these online) - catchup, fist, pull, isolated arm, kicking, sculling, thumb scrape, finger drag, sewing machine. Good luck, Shane
Shane, have oyu got any pics of the Sewing Machine? People have tried to explain it but like all these things I couldn't get it...



Edited by TH3_FRB 2006-05-24 10:58 PM
2006-05-24 11:09 PM
in reply to: #433561

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
TH3_FRB - 2006-05-24 10:52 PM

I' not sure I see the logic in this. It seems analogous to cadence on the bike. You can spin easy but relatively fast or hard with a lower cadence to achieve the same speed/power output. There are consequences to pulling harder...like potentially burning out your fast twitch fibers, starting to burn off valuable glycogen, and potentially increasing lactate accumulation prematurely. If I can go just as fast by stroking easier then you better bet that's what I'll be doing. What exactly are you gaining by "saving" 2-3 strokes assuming your requiring your muscles to work harder to cut that stroke count down for the same speed? For most of us there is a lot more potential in working on efficiency over brute force in the water. That being said, I think the OP should start to incorporate shorter intervals and swimming sets instead of just going long. There is a great little workout guide called Swim Workouts in a Binder. It's waterproof and has over a hundred specific workouts divided up into categories to focus on endurance, force, muscular endurance, anaerobic threshold, etc.



i personally feel the difference in energy used by pulling harder is less than the energy used to take a few extra strokes at an easier pace. im not saying you should be pulling as hard as you can every stroke but you should have a fairly strong stroke. im not an expert but i disagree with your bike analogy because swimming is different than biking. in biking cadence is more important and in swimming distance per stroke is more important. if you watch some of the best milers swimming like grant hacket, peter vanderkaay, etc they take many less trokes per 25/50 than nearly everyone. biking is different because the best guys all are able to hold a higher cadence.


edit: i feel i should also add that if you can maintain a lower stroke count while training when you need to turn it up a little for a race you can have a higher tempo/more strokes and go considerably faster than you would otherwise.

Edited by Swimmer3 2006-05-24 11:14 PM
2006-05-25 5:08 AM
in reply to: #433228

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
Thanks for the advice (all really good) - much appreciated!

I've invested in the TI book, and tried doing a few of the drills, but am finding them a bit difficult. It's certainly useful, and i've tried to implement some of the ideas.

I think i'll try out some of the drils above for my swim this afternoon.

Gordon.
2006-05-25 6:12 AM
in reply to: #433526

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
AusVirgin - 2006-05-24 10:35 PM

gsmacleod - 2006-05-25 10:55 AM

Some examples that you may want to incorporate (you can find descriptions of these online) - catchup, fist, pull, isolated arm, kicking, sculling, thumb scrape, finger drag, sewing machine.


Good luck,

Shane


Shane, have oyu got any pics of the Sewing Machine? People have tried to explain it but like all these things I couldn't get it...


No picts - sorry. I'll try to find the post on slowtwitch where I first read about it.

Shane

edited to add - Looks like Joel beat me to it - thx!

Edited by gsmacleod 2006-05-25 6:12 AM


2006-05-25 6:43 AM
in reply to: #433629

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work

I actually just found that ST thread yesterday...had never heard of the sweing machine dril before.

gsmacleod - 2006-05-25 7:12 AM  Shane edited to add - Looks like Joel beat me to it - thx!

2006-05-25 7:12 AM
in reply to: #433228

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work

Yet another swimming speed debate If you want to swim fast you HAVE to practice to swim fast, period. Yes technique is very important but at some point you trade prefect technique for a bit more of strength/endurance and be able to get yourself through the water faster than your competition. To achieve this you have to find your right balance between DPS (distance per stroke and SF (stroke frequency)

There are world champion swimmers who can swim equally fast but with different styles. One might glide a bit more and have a better DPS while the other might have a higher SF. So there is NOT a single way. BTW, I think that the emphasis suggested on “efficiency” and drills sometimes is pointless unless you have a coach accessing your swim.  Granted it is important but you need to get feedback to know you are doing it correctly and NOT reinforcing bad habits. Finally, if I have to choose between swimming pretty and “efficient” or ugly and fast I’ll definitely pick the latter

Anyway for the OP, here are a couple of killer workouts for speed and adjust depending on your level:
WU: 300-500 drills done as 25 drill 25 swim, MS: 20-40x50 as odds done all out with 10-15 sec rest/ evens done with kickboard mod/hard with 15-20sec rest, CD: 4-8x50 swim golf

WU: 300-500 drills done as 25 drill 25 swim, MS: 10-20x100 at race pace (i.e. if you want to avg 1:20 per 100 on your race shoot for that speed) rest 10-20 sec in between CD: 200-400 easy bilateral breathing

This is more to simulate race swim (speed/endurance) >> WU: 300-500 drills done as 25 drill 25 swim, MS: 3-5x500 continuos swim done as 100steady/100hard with 1 min rest in between, CD: 200-400 easy DPS

2006-05-25 7:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim speed work

I DONE THAT DRILL!!! The "sewing machine" drill and loved it. BUT for those fans of TI it will go against of what they have learned… pretty much it teaches you to keep your recovery short, and to improve your stroke count while keeping the recovery with high elbow and to begin the pull from your forearm. GREAT drill

2006-05-25 7:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
I echo the sentiments about needing speed work. Speed work isn't necesarily sprints, but you need to do harder work with shorter rests while focusing on form. All the suggestions above are good. Workouts in a binder is great because the same workout applies regardless of yoru speed...the are not "send off" sets, as in, swim 10x100 on 1 minute. The are rest interval sets, like swim 10x100 with 10 sec rest, or whatever. The point is, you can be slow, and still do the workouts.

Gordon, if the TI drills feel hard, then you probably have a lot of work you can do on your form to improve overall. I would focus on balance and glide first like Chris M said.

At some point, at least in my swim development, you'lll need to focus on the catch/pull and actual arm stregnth. If you have the best balance in the world, strongest abs and can glide like an America's Cup Yacht through the water, but your arms are noodles, you have nothing. Your arms are integral to ultimately transfer all the core energy in to forward motion. Just like you need stiff crank arms on a bicycle to make the bike go forward, you need to train your arm muscles for strenght and endurance as well. But first you need good form.

2006-05-25 7:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
So Fresh So Clean - 2006-05-24 10:40 PM

One more thing, don't do the same distance and measure your speed for the whole workout. It makes you hurry up your warm up and drills section. Measure your speed during your main set. If you want more ideas, check my logs from September to February when I swam for the university. Cheers.


This is really good advice, and i'm glad to see it in "print". I unconsciously think about this when doing warm up & cool down. And, I admit it, have sometimes skipped some kicking in warm up because I didn't want to slow down my overall workout average too much!


2006-05-25 10:16 AM
in reply to: #433667

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
amiine - 2006-05-25 7:12 AM

BTW, I think that the emphasis suggested on “efficiency” and drills sometimes is pointless unless you have a coach accessing your swim. Granted it is important but you need to get feedback to know you are doing it correctly and NOT reinforcing bad habits.







this is so very true. reinforcing bad technique is killer because then it is so much harder to relearn how to swim with good technique.

Edited by Swimmer3 2006-05-25 10:29 AM
2006-05-25 11:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim speed work

AdventureBear - 2006-05-25 1:45 PM I echo the sentiments about needing speed work. Speed work isn't necesarily sprints, but you need to do harder work with shorter rests while focusing on form. All the suggestions above are good. Workouts in a binder is great because the same workout applies regardless of yoru speed...the are not "send off" sets, as in, swim 10x100 on 1 minute. The are rest interval sets, like swim 10x100 with 10 sec rest, or whatever. The point is, you can be slow, and still do the workouts. Gordon, if the TI drills feel hard, then you probably have a lot of work you can do on your form to improve overall. I would focus on balance and glide first like Chris M said. At some point, at least in my swim development, you'lll need to focus on the catch/pull and actual arm stregnth. If you have the best balance in the world, strongest abs and can glide like an America's Cup Yacht through the water, but your arms are noodles, you have nothing. Your arms are integral to ultimately transfer all the core energy in to forward motion. Just like you need stiff crank arms on a bicycle to make the bike go forward, you need to train your arm muscles for strenght and endurance as well. But first you need good form.

two great drilsl for strengthening your forearms are fist and doggy paddle. doggy paddle does what it says on the tin and is suprisingly hard. fist is normal free but with closed hands; this improves the strength you get out of the forearm rather than just your open hand.

2006-05-25 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
amiine - 2006-05-25 1:12 PM

Anyway for the OP, here are a couple of killer workouts for speed and adjust depending on your level:
WU: 300-500 drills done as 25 drill 25 swim, MS: 20-40x50 as odds done all out with 10-15 sec rest/ evens done with kickboard mod/hard with 15-20sec rest, CD: 4-8x50 swim golf

WU: 300-500 drills done as 25 drill 25 swim, MS: 10-20x100 at race pace (i.e. if you want to avg 1:20 per 100 on your race shoot for that speed) rest 10-20 sec in between CD: 200-400 easy bilateral breathing

This is more to simulate race swim (speed/endurance) >> WU: 300-500 drills done as 25 drill 25 swim, MS: 3-5x500 continuos swim done as 100steady/100hard with 1 min rest in between, CD: 200-400 easy DPS

 

that set sounds amazing! i'm gonna print it off and give it a whirl asap. well once i've done my sponsored swim to send a girls footie team to the outgames in montreal. ta loads

2006-05-25 11:54 AM
in reply to: #433538

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Subject: RE: Swim speed work
Swimmer3 - 2006-05-24 8:11 PM
ChrisM - 2006-05-24 4:43 PM

And remember - speed is NOT gained by pushing harder against the water (the water pushes back just as hard) but by learning proper form so you are gliding through the water. A lot of people swear by Total Immersion techniques.

i disagree with this. i may not be an expert but i was on a competitve team with one of the elite coaches in the country .....snip

the point being, for a newer swimmer, that shear brute force alone does not increase your speed without proper technique.  Many folks do not know this

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