Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? (Page 2)
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2012-05-22 12:04 PM in reply to: #4222919 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? rwsads - 2012-05-22 11:03 AM DanielG - 2012-05-22 10:58 AM Do 'em if you wanna do 'em. Don't do 'em if you don't wanna do 'em. Just swim.
Daniel has the best answer on here. Hey...some of us are trying to have a controversial discussion here...let us have our fun, lol. |
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2012-05-22 12:05 PM in reply to: #4222895 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? dewybuck - 2012-05-22 11:54 PM TriAya - 2012-05-22 12:12 PM I am not afraid ... nor tired of discussing this. Katie asked a good question and I think she deserves a good answer. Are flip turns necessary for becoming adequate/proficient at swim training in a pool? No. Are flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? Absolutely. Here are some of my reasons, and after I give them I'll dig up some good "how to" videos (I think there are some right here on BT). I will add that the vast majority (I can only think of one exception on this site) of good swimmers advocate learning and doing them.
4. It gives you better technique and better water awareness. It helps you become aware of your arms, hands, legs, and torso in the water. All these little things add up in the long run and help you become better aware of yourself in the water. I have plagiarized mercilessly from other good swimmers in stating these reasons. I agree with almost everything you mention, and would love to be able to do flip turns, will get it eventually, BUT....I have to disagree with the bolded section, however you look at it, you are going one direction, then completely reversing direction, one way or another there is a stop and reverse. it's smoother with a GOOD flip turn, it helps maintain rhythm, but a bad flip turn (too early, too late) can halt you just as effectively as an open turn. (my qualifications for this statement...I can only manage bad flip turns right now and I definitely lose pace/time and rhythm). Are they worth it to the OP's post, I think so, but they are not similar to open water swimming in the lack of dead stops IMO. Nope. No stop in a flip turn. If you watch the lead arm of a good swimmer going into a flip turn and out of it, IT NEVER STOPS. Then watch the lead arm of a swimmer doing an open turn. It ALWAYS has to stop its motion at the wall. It's like doing a U-turn with a car ... you can do the turn smoothly around (flip turn) and not have to slow down as much and get all that momentum to speed back up, OR you can stop at the turn (open turn) and have to get back up to speed going the other direction. There is a slight slowing down with a flip turn, but there's never the inevitable dead stop like there is in open turns. |
2012-05-22 12:19 PM in reply to: #4222685 |
Extreme Veteran 640 | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? My opinion is that they are worth it. It only takes a few sessions before you can do it adequately, so that's not a ton of effort to learn it. My personal experience is that when I do an open turn, even though I never stop and I do it quickly, I can still get 2 quick breaths at the wall as I am turning around. In open water, unless you're on your back, you'll never get more than one breath at a time. Flip turns force you to pay even more attention to breathing and never lets you get more than 1 breath. Therefore, I think it is, at least minimally, advantageous to open water training. |
2012-05-22 12:21 PM in reply to: #4222685 |
Member 560 Utah | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? Holy crap, I had NO idea this was such a hot topic on here, I should have just searched previous threads! Good feed back, though with lots of things to think about. I spent an hour at the pool with a very experienced competitive swimmer working on them, and I left wondering if it was worth the effort. I can see some benefits to them, but if nothing else, if you do them well, they do up your "bad @$$" factor, right? |
2012-05-22 12:28 PM in reply to: #4222969 |
Master 2759 Los Angeles, CA | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? KatieLimb - 2012-05-22 10:21 AM if you do them well, they do up your "bad @$$" factor, right? Yes, they do. =) |
2012-05-22 12:29 PM in reply to: #4222774 |
Extreme Veteran 1942 In front of computer when typing this. | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? bryancd - 2012-05-22 12:13 PM brigby1 - 2012-05-22 10:12 AM So maybe one saltine cracker? I say eat a saltine and do a flip turn, it's energy nuetral!tuwood - 2012-05-22 11:10 AM bryancd - 2012-05-22 10:48 AM How many calories does it take to do a flip turn? I would guess... Umm, carry the 3 and divide by 7.... approximately .02 calories to do a flip turn I would have said 0.42. So do you eat the saltine before or after each flip turn? You obviously don't want to bonk during the turn itself, so getting that 0.42 of a calorie down BEFORE the turn is probably smartest. So on a 3K swim in a 25yd pool, that is ~119 saltines. Seems reasonable and something to aim for. I wonder if there is a device to carry the saltines in to grab as you go by, because you wouldn't want to stop to pick one up (defeats the purpose of the flip turn). |
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2012-05-22 12:30 PM in reply to: #4222969 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? KatieLimb - 2012-05-22 11:21 AM I can see some benefits to them, but if nothing else, if you do them well, they do up your "bad @$$" factor, right? Totally!!! And you get to take sides in future threads on flip turns. |
2012-05-22 12:36 PM in reply to: #4222969 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? KatieLimb - 2012-05-23 12:21 AM Holy crap, I had NO idea this was such a hot topic on here, I should have just searched previous threads! Good feed back, though with lots of things to think about. I spent an hour at the pool with a very experienced competitive swimmer working on them, and I left wondering if it was worth the effort. I can see some benefits to them, but if nothing else, if you do them well, they do up your "bad @$$" factor, right? Yup. Also, a very good swimmer may or may not be the best swim/turn teacher. They might, but often someone who is good who once stunk (learned to swim as an adult and has some coaching cred) will be better because they understand the particular difficulties of trying to learn technique-based stuff as an adult. There is a lot to consider, but I'd also look at what all the good swimmers and coaches are saying ... vs what those who are less experienced or accomplished in the water are saying. The lines are THAT clearly drawn, and I personally know which side I'd prefer to stay on. A final note is that some people are going to suck at flip turns no matter what, but that's almost always due to vertigo or serious spatial awareness issues (especially when land gravity and perfectly clear sight are removed from the equation). For those people, it really may not be worth the inordinate amount of time they'd have to put in to learn flip turns vs. what they could spend just swimming. But if you haven't given it a good try, it's hard to say. |
2012-05-22 12:38 PM in reply to: #4222854 |
New user 74 | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? cmscat50 - 2012-05-22 12:41 PM How Phelps can flip then dolphin for 15 yards off turns in 200M races I cannot fathom...LOL. I'd pass out and slowly sink to the bottom of the pool!
You should check out races before FINA changed the underwater rules. Since the mid 90s, swimmers have to come up after 15 meters. David Berkoff used to "Berkoff balast off" about 35 meters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oTlD6SuvNk |
2012-05-22 12:40 PM in reply to: #4222685 |
Expert 839 Anaheim Hills, CA | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? I would do them if I could but I haven't put in the time or effort to learn how yet. Plus I'm also really afraid of bashing my ankles on the pool deck when I flip so I may never try. |
2012-05-22 12:42 PM in reply to: #4223009 |
Master 6834 Englewood, Florida | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? AdventureBear - 2012-05-22 1:30 PM KatieLimb - 2012-05-22 11:21 AM I can see some benefits to them, but if nothing else, if you do them well, they do up your "bad @$$" factor, right? Totally!!! And you get to take sides in future threads on flip turns. Thus the reason I am learning them. Actually, I was on the fence, but have spent a bit of time the past few months working on them. If nothing else, it has made me more comfortable in the water, and that alone was worth the time spent. |
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2012-05-22 12:43 PM in reply to: #4222685 |
Veteran 273 | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? Flip turns are cool. It is a well known fact of life that doing flip turns is superior to not doing flip turns. |
2012-05-22 1:40 PM in reply to: #4223062 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? What are flip turns? Side note. I thought swimming should be fun, no? When I see kids, they are always doing summersaults, rolls, handstands, etc. I just see flip turns as a grownup version of summersaults/flips They are just plain fun. I do them to make a swim more enjoyable, if anything, and don't even worry if they are "good for me" or not (which, btw, I'm in the camp they are good). I also often cool down with trying to see how far I can go underwater or practice my porpoising. Any proven benifit - not sure. I think it's just fun AND if you play, you get more comfortable in the water, so less likely to panic if something comes up in an OWS.
ETA: Off to the pool for a lunchtime swim. And going to do flipturns, BTW. Edited by Kido 2012-05-22 1:41 PM |
2012-05-22 2:09 PM in reply to: #4223212 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? Kido - 2012-05-22 12:40 PM What are flip turns? Side note. I thought swimming should be fun, no? When I see kids, they are always doing summersaults, rolls, handstands, etc. I just see flip turns as a grownup version of summersaults/flips They are just plain fun. I do them to make a swim more enjoyable, if anything, and don't even worry if they are "good for me" or not (which, btw, I'm in the camp they are good). I also often cool down with trying to see how far I can go underwater or practice my porpoising. Any proven benifit - not sure. I think it's just fun AND if you play, you get more comfortable in the water, so less likely to panic if something comes up in an OWS.
ETA: Off to the pool for a lunchtime swim. And going to do flipturns, BTW. PLaying is good. Anytime I do a swim talk for a club ,I show videos of my 2 nephews who are totally comfortable in the water, playing, disco dancing underwater...and swimming freestyle! |
2012-05-22 2:09 PM in reply to: #4222685 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? I don't shower before getting into the pool so I can save that energy to do flip turns. |
2012-05-22 2:58 PM in reply to: #4223301 |
Member 137 | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? powerman - 2012-05-22 3:09 PM I don't shower before getting into the pool so I can save that energy to do flip turns. Super LOL. What a great thread. My two cents: I'm a new swimmer and this time last year I couldn't make it 50 yards without pulling my head out of the water. Got swim coaching, and last season touch turned as I learned how to swim - average workouts around 2000 yards. Finished last season with a half iron man and the swim was horrible, like 45 minutes, lots of doggie paddling and I wanted to pull out horrible. This season I wanted to improve my open water swimming so I decided to teach myself flip turns. Why? Because in open water, there are walls to take a breath on and flip turning makes you manage your breathing over the entire set. I was cheating on my touch turns and grabbing extra air and the flip turns stop that right away. How: youtube videos and lots of water up my nose. About a month in and I can manage a half decent turn and like others say, my breathing has improved along with my times. Over very hard sets I struggle to do them, and I still gasp for air after the turn, but it's already paid dividends in the open water. Everyone's different but I vote for do them if you can, even if they aren't pretty. |
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2012-05-22 4:18 PM in reply to: #4223300 |
Expert 1566 Prattville Insane Asylum San Antonio | Subject: RE: Flip turns worth the energy/effort to learn? AdventureBear - 2012-05-22 2:09 PM Kido - 2012-05-22 12:40 PM PLaying is good. Anytime I do a swim talk for a club ,I show videos of my 2 nephews who are totally comfortable in the water, playing, disco dancing underwater...and swimming freestyle!What are flip turns? Side note. I thought swimming should be fun, no? When I see kids, they are always doing summersaults, rolls, handstands, etc. I just see flip turns as a grownup version of summersaults/flips They are just plain fun. I do them to make a swim more enjoyable, if anything, and don't even worry if they are "good for me" or not (which, btw, I'm in the camp they are good). I also often cool down with trying to see how far I can go underwater or practice my porpoising. Any proven benifit - not sure. I think it's just fun AND if you play, you get more comfortable in the water, so less likely to panic if something comes up in an OWS.
ETA: Off to the pool for a lunchtime swim. And going to do flipturns, BTW. Ok, now I have a new drill for this week! |
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