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2012-06-14 11:21 AM

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Subject: body weight & bike performance correlation

So in my head, if one were to drop 10 pounds overnight, he or she should automatically pick up some speed on the bike.  You've simply got less mass to push around.  This would seem to be especially true on inclines.  I guess another way to look at it is, put on a 10-pound backpack or giant water bottle and you're going to slow down a certain amount.

First...is this true?  Second...anyone seen studies, articles or the actual science behind it?  Is there any way we can say...if you weigh 200 pounds and drop 10 you will almost automatically gain X mph on the bike?  I'm sure there are other mitigating factors that would not make that type of statement totally reliable, but I'm sure there's been some thought put into this and some conclusions drawn.  I'm wondering that they are.  Thanks.



2012-06-14 11:25 AM
in reply to: #4261592

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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
I think you are really going to be disappointed by the amount of speed you get with 10 pound reduction.  I will dig around as I have good comparison, but really the sport is all about how many watts you can put out.

Edited by ThomasGerlach ProTri 2012-06-14 11:49 AM
2012-06-14 11:26 AM
in reply to: #4261592

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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
On steep hills, this would be very true and fairly easy to estimate.  On flat ground, less so on both counts.  Weight plays a very small role in the speed of a bike on level ground.  Aerodynamics play a large role.  10 pounds could mean marginally less ar resistance and perhaps an ability to hold a more aero body position but the lower weight, by itself, wouldn't change the bike speed much.
2012-06-14 11:31 AM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
There are calculators out ther (e.g., analytic cycling) that will do what you ask but the bottom lone is that weight (rider, bike, rotational) is nearly irrelevant in triathlon. Certainly aerodynamics trump weight by a significant margin. If you're a really big guy then losing frontal area will make you faster.
2012-06-14 11:40 AM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
Running, on the other hand... might get a noticeable benefit.
2012-06-14 11:41 AM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation

ThomasGerlach ProTri - 2012-06-14 11:25 AM I think you are really going to be disappointed by the amount of speed you get with 10 pound reduction.  I will dig are around as I have good comparison but really the sport is all about how many watts you can put out. 

No, I wouldn't be disappointed at all!  If there's nothing to gain, then I don't need to lose the weight!



2012-06-14 11:44 AM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
Running will likely see some improvement more so than cycling.  However, if you can crank out the same watts at 135 pounds vs. 190 pounds, then I suspect that you'll notice a difference.
2012-06-14 11:45 AM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation

JohnnyKay - 2012-06-14 11:26 AM On steep hills, this would be very true and fairly easy to estimate.  On flat ground, less so on both counts.  Weight plays a very small role in the speed of a bike on level ground.  Aerodynamics play a large role.  10 pounds could mean marginally less ar resistance and perhaps an ability to hold a more aero body position but the lower weight, by itself, wouldn't change the bike speed much.

Considering all this, it's fairly amazing how much people will pay to shed like 6oz. off their bike, no?  I know for a fact people literally count ounces when picking out components for their bikes...is that all just a big waste of time and money?  Or is bike weight more relevant than body weight?

2012-06-14 11:47 AM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
duder5189 - 2012-06-14 1:45 PM

I know for a fact people literally count ounces when picking out components for their bikes...is that all just a big waste of time and money?


For triathlon, yes. If you are doing a number of uphill TT's, then it might be worth it.

Shane
2012-06-14 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
Aero is the key on the bike not weight.
2012-06-14 11:49 AM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
I should have added, for triathlons. As others have stated if you are doing other types of riding then weight can be a bigger factor.


2012-06-14 11:56 AM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation

Duct tape two bags of sugar to your bike, ride one of your typical training rides and let us know the reuslts!  Don't have a clue what you might find out, but I am almost thinking about trying myself!

On a related subject, my wife and I were discussing my weight loss (45#) and its effect on some lower back problems I had been having.  She didn't think it really would make much difference.  I said, well, think about if you had to carry around a 40# bag of softener salt all day.  She then decided the weight loss prolly made a big difference.

2012-06-14 12:12 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
TriBoilermaker - 2012-06-14 11:48 AM

Aero is the key on the bike not weight.


Doesn't this depend on the type of course you're preparing for? If you are racing a hilly course like IM Wisconsin or LP, I think weight reduction helps quite a bit. At least that's been my admittedly unscientific experience.
2012-06-14 12:24 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
MUL98 - 2012-06-14 2:12 PM

TriBoilermaker - 2012-06-14 11:48 AM

Aero is the key on the bike not weight.


Doesn't this depend on the type of course you're preparing for? If you are racing a hilly course like IM Wisconsin or LP, I think weight reduction helps quite a bit. At least that's been my admittedly unscientific experience.


That's actually the key to this; it seems sensible that a heavy bike would be a much larger penalty than it actually is; if you crunch the numbers, the time losses while climbing are mostly recovered when descending and the end result is very close to a wash.

shane
2012-06-14 12:31 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation

Race results are great, but what you really need to impress your friends is a staggering W/kg.  So, lose the weight.

 

2012-06-14 12:39 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
buck1400 - 2012-06-14 12:56 PM

Duct tape two bags of sugar to your bike, ride one of your typical training rides and let us know the reuslts!  Don't have a clue what you might find out, but I am almost thinking about trying myself!

You will be slower, but not primarily due to the weight.  Those two bags of sugar are like to wreck havoc on your aerodynamics.  If you filled your water bottles (that you would carry normally) with something like coins, instead of water, that might make a good test.  Let us know how it goes. 



2012-06-14 1:00 PM
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2012-06-14 1:06 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
gsmacleod - 2012-06-14 12:24 PM

MUL98 - 2012-06-14 2:12 PM

TriBoilermaker - 2012-06-14 11:48 AM

Aero is the key on the bike not weight.


Doesn't this depend on the type of course you're preparing for? If you are racing a hilly course like IM Wisconsin or LP, I think weight reduction helps quite a bit. At least that's been my admittedly unscientific experience.


That's actually the key to this; it seems sensible that a heavy bike would be a much larger penalty than it actually is; if you crunch the numbers, the time losses while climbing are mostly recovered when descending and the end result is very close to a wash.

shane


Interesting. I haven't seen the data, but if this is true, I question why pro cyclists focus on eliminating every ounce of fat. Particularly good climbers. I always assumed it was to create a positive weight to power ratio in order to climb faster/better. (Actually I'm pretty sure I read articles about this)

It appears you are saying that regardless of weight, descending allows for sufficent recovery. Why the obsession with weight then? Or does the nature of triathlon (as opposed to cycling) change this in some way?

I will say I feel like a better climber when I'm lean, and my times seem to reflect that. Of course that is - as stated above - not very scientific. It may just be that leanness is a natural side effect of getting more fit and the fitness is what allows for better climbing. Or maybe it's just the pacebo effect.
2012-06-14 1:12 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
I commute back and forth to work on my road bike with about 10 lbs worth of gear (when you include my work clothes, shower stuff, lunch, bike lock, panniers etc.). One Saturday I decided to strip my bike and ride my normal route to work to see how much difference it made. It made about .4 mph difference in average speed. I will say, however, that it climbed hills and accelerated much faster. Though .4 mph IS a difference, it's not a huge difference; and I attribute much of that small difference to the aerodynamic improvement of not having my panniers and stuff hanging out in the wind.
2012-06-14 1:14 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
MUL98 - 2012-06-14 3:06 PM

It appears you are saying that regardless of weight, descending allows for sufficent recovery. Why the obsession with weight then? Or does the nature of triathlon (as opposed to cycling) change this in some way?


Triathlons are almost always on loop courses so the net elevation gain is zero. In cycling, there are often mountain top finishes where power:weight is going to be critical, especially up the final climb.

Further, when one considers the grades in a hilly grand tour, good climbers will have a chance to put enough time into the pack on the climb that the other athletes will not be able to make it up on the descent or the descent will be technical enough that the required braking to get down the mountain safely do not allow the athlete to make up the lost time.

Shane
2012-06-14 1:25 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
gsmacleod - 2012-06-14 1:14 PM

MUL98 - 2012-06-14 3:06 PM

It appears you are saying that regardless of weight, descending allows for sufficent recovery. Why the obsession with weight then? Or does the nature of triathlon (as opposed to cycling) change this in some way?


Triathlons are almost always on loop courses so the net elevation gain is zero. In cycling, there are often mountain top finishes where power:weight is going to be critical, especially up the final climb.

Further, when one considers the grades in a hilly grand tour, good climbers will have a chance to put enough time into the pack on the climb that the other athletes will not be able to make it up on the descent or the descent will be technical enough that the required braking to get down the mountain safely do not allow the athlete to make up the lost time.

Shane


Ah - so on a pure "I need to get up this hill and this hill only" basis, being lighter does help with climbing?

Doesn't it follow then that over the course of say 112 miles, being fresher at the top of each climb - even if there is zero elevation gain over the whole course - will have cumulative benefit? For instance, won't you get off fresher for the run than if you were 10 lbs heavier?


2012-06-14 1:26 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation

Not exactly a test, but definitely something that I saw and humbling, and may actually prove some of the questions. 

At Irongirl - I didn't use my aerobars, because I was fairly new to them, so I just used the drops (Road bike with clipons).

At Irongirl, I was cranking up a largish hill, and I passed on two ladies who HAD Tribikes and used their aerobars, but they look like they had a little bit of a relaxed fit.   HOWEVER, there was this girl who had a blue Cervelo, and she is a large woman. She's probably about 50-70 pounds heavier than me (I'm not thin).  She BLEW past me on the ascent of that hill so easily until she became a blip in the distance. All I could think of was, "OMFG!! Just to prove that you don't have to be pencil thin to do well on the bike." I was so happy for her actually!!".  Her fit was very aero - low in the front, straight back, and it was obvious that she had a great fit on her bike.  (Sadly, I passed her on the run...but that's okay!)

So, my takeaway from this is...it's really more the aerodynamics that plays a bigger role on the bike.  However, I also believe fitness also plays a role. I've passed some people on the ascents easily while they were on tri bikes and in their aerobars...probably because I ride big hills weekly, and they're not used to it. 

Weight reduction may help, but like Shawn says...it'll help better on the run. 

2012-06-14 1:34 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation

Basically losing weight is a small advantage on the flats but a greater advantage on the hills.

You can play with this calculator but for someone 5'10 @200 watts on a triathlon bike (CdA is calculated for you, I used all other defaults):

150lbs, 0% incline = 22.3 mph

160lbs, 0% incline = 22.1 mph

170lbs,  0% incline = 20.9 mph

150lbs, 2% incline = 16.2 mph

160lbs, 2% incline = 15.8 mph

170lbs, 2% incline = 15.4 mph

140lbs, 4% incline = 11.6 mph

150lbs, 4% incline = 11.1 mph

160lbs, 4% incline = 10.6 mph

 

 

 

2012-06-14 1:39 PM
in reply to: #4261854

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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation

MUL98 - 2012-06-14 7:25 PM
gsmacleod - 2012-06-14 1:14 PM
MUL98 - 2012-06-14 3:06 PM It appears you are saying that regardless of weight, descending allows for sufficent recovery. Why the obsession with weight then? Or does the nature of triathlon (as opposed to cycling) change this in some way?
Triathlons are almost always on loop courses so the net elevation gain is zero. In cycling, there are often mountain top finishes where power:weight is going to be critical, especially up the final climb. Further, when one considers the grades in a hilly grand tour, good climbers will have a chance to put enough time into the pack on the climb that the other athletes will not be able to make it up on the descent or the descent will be technical enough that the required braking to get down the mountain safely do not allow the athlete to make up the lost time. Shane
Ah - so on a pure "I need to get up this hill and this hill only" basis, being lighter does help with climbing? Doesn't it follow then that over the course of say 112 miles, being fresher at the top of each climb - even if there is zero elevation gain over the whole course - will have cumulative benefit? For instance, won't you get off fresher for the run than if you were 10 lbs heavier?

Yes you would be fresher if you went the same speed up the hill as your heavier comparitive competitor, but then your buddy would use less energy getting down the hill at the same speed, so you'd be equally wiped when you reach the bottom.

If you were to go up and down the hill at the same effort you would both be equally tired at top and bottom but the heavier guy would be behind you at the top and caught up at the bottom.

2012-06-14 1:42 PM
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Subject: RE: body weight & bike performance correlation
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-06-14 7:34 PM

Basically losing weight is a small advantage on the flats but a greater advantage on the hills.

You can play with this calculator but for someone 5'10 @200 watts on a triathlon bike (CdA is calculated for you, I used all other defaults):

150lbs, 0% incline = 22.3 mph

160lbs, 0% incline = 22.1 mph

170lbs,  0% incline = 20.9 mph

150lbs, 2% incline = 16.2 mph

160lbs, 2% incline = 15.8 mph

170lbs, 2% incline = 15.4 mph

140lbs, 4% incline = 11.6 mph

150lbs, 4% incline = 11.1 mph

160lbs, 4% incline = 10.6 mph

 

 

 

~1/2mph?  To me thats worth dropping the weight - damn back on the diet

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