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2013-06-12 2:11 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by noelle1230 It is my understanding that the lymphatic system normally processes lactic acid and flushes it out of the body.
Lactic acid is only found in the human body as a transitory compound and does not accumulate. Lactate does accumulate and this is first used in the cell as fuel; when there is more lactate produced (through anaerobic metabolism) than can be used by the cell, it will be passed to the blood stream and transported to other cells. If one continues producing more lactate than can be used by the cells, blood lactate will accumulate and this is typically what is measured during a lactate threshold test. Once one stops exercising, the accumulated lactate will be consumed by the cells as energy and since lactate is no longer being produced faster than the cells are using it so blood lactate returns to baseline levels. Shane

I did not mean to imply that it accumulates for longer than 30 minutes or so, but a tighter muscles will definitely prevent the lymphatic system from flushing it out of your body more quickly.  

I do agree that what people think of as accumulating lactic acid, like in the form of the little crystals or "crunchies" as my masseuse calls them, that this is not lactic acid but actually crystallized toxins.

Either way, a foam roller can help you flush them out of your system.



2013-06-12 2:12 PM
in reply to: FastFish26

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by FastFish26

Originally posted by noelle1230

It is my understanding that the lymphatic system normally processes lactic acid and flushes it out of the body.  One thing that inhibits this process though is muscle tightness--a tight muscle constricts the flow of the lymphatic fluid that does the flushing and eliminating.

One great way to overcome muscle tightness is through deep tissue massage.  The foam roller is simply a way to give yourself a deep tissue massage.  If you use it properly, you can get even deeper into your own muscles than your sports massage therapist does.  I know I do, and my masseuse does NOT take it easy on me!




Exactly!! That was my point. I was not inferring that the foam roller itself flushes out the lactate. It helps the process by self massaging your muscles using your own force and body weight without getting a massage weekly/bi-weekly, which can is costly.


this is not true, see shane's response.
2013-06-12 2:14 PM
in reply to: FastFish26

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by FastFish26

Exactly!! That was my point. I was not inferring that the foam roller itself flushes out the lactate. It helps the process by self massaging your muscles using your own force and body weight without getting a massage weekly/bi-weekly, which can is costly.


What process? That of flushing lactate? Lactate does not need to be flushed and it only accumulates with intense exercise; very shortly after you stop, lactate returns to baseline levels.

Shane
2013-06-12 2:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by noelle1230

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by noelle1230 It is my understanding that the lymphatic system normally processes lactic acid and flushes it out of the body.
Lactic acid is only found in the human body as a transitory compound and does not accumulate. Lactate does accumulate and this is first used in the cell as fuel; when there is more lactate produced (through anaerobic metabolism) than can be used by the cell, it will be passed to the blood stream and transported to other cells. If one continues producing more lactate than can be used by the cells, blood lactate will accumulate and this is typically what is measured during a lactate threshold test. Once one stops exercising, the accumulated lactate will be consumed by the cells as energy and since lactate is no longer being produced faster than the cells are using it so blood lactate returns to baseline levels. Shane

I did not mean to imply that it accumulates for longer than 30 minutes or so, but a tighter muscles will definitely prevent the lymphatic system from flushing it out of your body more quickly.  

I do agree that what people think of as accumulating lactic acid, like in the form of the little crystals or "crunchies" as my masseuse calls them, that this is not lactic acid but actually crystallized toxins.

Either way, a foam roller can help you flush them out of your system.




"crunchies" are not crystallized anything. A knot is an adhesion between different layers of muscle which can be caused by many many things (lack of lubrication due to dehydration or too little blood flow from sitting still for instance). It has absolutely nothing to do with flushing things out of your body from pressure. A massage, or foam rolling, can get rid of the adhesion.

Edited by dmiller5 2013-06-12 2:21 PM
2013-06-12 2:27 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by FastFish26 Exactly!! That was my point. I was not inferring that the foam roller itself flushes out the lactate. It helps the process by self massaging your muscles using your own force and body weight without getting a massage weekly/bi-weekly, which can is costly.
What process? That of flushing lactate? Lactate does not need to be flushed and it only accumulates with intense exercise; very shortly after you stop, lactate returns to baseline levels. Shane

I think the confusion is that you're not technically flushing "lactic acid" out of your system; your system breaks down the lactic acid on its own and there are bi-products of this like pyruvate and oxaloacetate.  Eventually, bi-products your system is not able to breakdown on its own are flushed out by the lymphatic system.

2013-06-12 2:30 PM
in reply to: noelle1230

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by noelle1230

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by FastFish26 Exactly!! That was my point. I was not inferring that the foam roller itself flushes out the lactate. It helps the process by self massaging your muscles using your own force and body weight without getting a massage weekly/bi-weekly, which can is costly.
What process? That of flushing lactate? Lactate does not need to be flushed and it only accumulates with intense exercise; very shortly after you stop, lactate returns to baseline levels. Shane

I think the confusion is that you're not technically flushing "lactic acid" out of your system; your system breaks down the lactic acid on its own and there are bi-products of this like pyruvate and oxaloacetate.  Eventually, bi-products your system is not able to breakdown on its own are flushed out by the lymphatic system.




pyruvate will be either turned into glucose through glucogenesis, or used to make energy through the krebs cycle. oxaloacetate reacts with acetyl coenzyme A, also in the krebs cycle. so neither of those would have to be flushed out of anywhere.


2013-06-12 2:36 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by dmiller5
Originally posted by noelle1230

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by FastFish26 Exactly!! That was my point. I was not inferring that the foam roller itself flushes out the lactate. It helps the process by self massaging your muscles using your own force and body weight without getting a massage weekly/bi-weekly, which can is costly.
What process? That of flushing lactate? Lactate does not need to be flushed and it only accumulates with intense exercise; very shortly after you stop, lactate returns to baseline levels. Shane

I think the confusion is that you're not technically flushing "lactic acid" out of your system; your system breaks down the lactic acid on its own and there are bi-products of this like pyruvate and oxaloacetate.  Eventually, bi-products your system is not able to breakdown on its own are flushed out by the lymphatic system.

pyruvate will be either turned into glucose through glucogenesis, or used to make energy through the krebs cycle. oxaloacetate reacts with acetyl coenzyme A, also in the krebs cycle. so neither of those would have to be flushed out of anywhere.

I mentioned pyruvate and oxaloacetate as bi-products of lactic acid breakdown but did not say that it is those compounds in particular that are being flushed.  

My point was that the lymphatic system definitely has a job it cannot do as efficiently when muscles are tight and it is flushing out things the body cannot process on its own.  And that foam rolling can assist in loosening the muscles thereby assisting with the flushing process.

I am in agreement that technically it is not lactic acid that is being flushed out.

2013-06-12 3:05 PM
in reply to: kingofbanff

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
To roll, or not to roll, that is the question:
Whether 'tis better for the legs to suffer
The tightness and stiffness of punished muscles,
Or to take the foam against bundled up sinew,
And by rolling, ease them: to sigh, to release
Or not; and by not, I say end
The fallicy, and the thousand Natural questions
This issue is heir to? 'Tis a contention
Devoutly to be argued. To dispute, to ignore,
To ignore, perchance to let each the decision make
Or, you could just rub,
2013-06-12 3:13 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by FastFish26

Exactly!! That was my point. I was not inferring that the foam roller itself flushes out the lactate. It helps the process by self massaging your muscles using your own force and body weight without getting a massage weekly/bi-weekly, which can is costly.


What process? That of flushing lactate? Lactate does not need to be flushed and it only accumulates with intense exercise; very shortly after you stop, lactate returns to baseline levels.

Shane


Lactic acid or no lactic acid I am still going to reap the benefits of foam rolling.

If you guys want to sit on a forum all day and argue about lactic acid and the many nuances of sports science and kinesiology have fun.

I am going to go get another workout in!!!
2013-06-12 3:17 PM
in reply to: FastFish26

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by FastFish26

Lactic acid or no lactic acid I am still going to reap the benefits of foam rolling.

If you guys want to sit on a forum all day and argue about lactic acid and the many nuances of sports science and kinesiology have fun.

I am going to go get another workout in!!!


I apologize - I thought you might be interested in learning a bit about the physiology so the next time this comes up you wouldn't perpetuate misinformation.

My bad,

Shane
2013-06-12 3:23 PM
in reply to: FastFish26

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by FastFish26

Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by FastFish26

Exactly!! That was my point. I was not inferring that the foam roller itself flushes out the lactate. It helps the process by self massaging your muscles using your own force and body weight without getting a massage weekly/bi-weekly, which can is costly.


What process? That of flushing lactate? Lactate does not need to be flushed and it only accumulates with intense exercise; very shortly after you stop, lactate returns to baseline levels.

Shane


Lactic acid or no lactic acid I am still going to reap the benefits of foam rolling.

If you guys want to sit on a forum all day and argue about lactic acid and the many nuances of sports science and kinesiology have fun.

I am going to go get another workout in!!!


right....I forgot that forums aren't places for discussions, my bad. I foam roll quite often, I just prefer to understand what it is doing, and why I am doing it.



2013-06-12 3:25 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by FastFish26

Lactic acid or no lactic acid I am still going to reap the benefits of foam rolling.

If you guys want to sit on a forum all day and argue about lactic acid and the many nuances of sports science and kinesiology have fun.

I am going to go get another workout in!!!


I apologize - I thought you might be interested in learning a bit about the physiology so the next time this comes up you wouldn't perpetuate misinformation.

My bad,

Shane


These forums are for the friendly sharing information. I was doing exactly that sharing how and why I use a foam roller. I am sorry you felt like you had to reply in such a douchie know-it all -in manner attempt to make others feel little. As a "coach"/BT forum member that is definitely not the way to go about it. Maybe you should take a communications class instead of so many physio classes.
2013-06-12 3:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!
Originally posted by FastFish26

As a "coach"/BT forum member that is definitely not the way to go about it. Maybe you should take a communications class instead of so many physio classes.


As a forum member, I'll take the accurate information delivered in a concise fashion over the chatty/friendly misinformation.



Edited by Goosedog 2013-06-12 3:33 PM
2013-06-12 3:38 PM
in reply to: FastFish26

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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!

Originally posted by FastFish26
Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by FastFish26 Exactly!! That was my point. I was not inferring that the foam roller itself flushes out the lactate. It helps the process by self massaging your muscles using your own force and body weight without getting a massage weekly/bi-weekly, which can is costly.
What process? That of flushing lactate? Lactate does not need to be flushed and it only accumulates with intense exercise; very shortly after you stop, lactate returns to baseline levels. Shane
Lactic acid or no lactic acid I am still going to reap the benefits of foam rolling. If you guys want to sit on a forum all day and argue about lactic acid and the many nuances of sports science and kinesiology have fun. I am going to go get another workout in!!!

You got us there.....nobody else here ever works out....thanks for holding up that end of it.

 

2013-06-12 3:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Foam rolling doesn't actually do anything!

Originally posted by FastFish26
Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by FastFish26 Lactic acid or no lactic acid I am still going to reap the benefits of foam rolling. If you guys want to sit on a forum all day and argue about lactic acid and the many nuances of sports science and kinesiology have fun. I am going to go get another workout in!!!
I apologize - I thought you might be interested in learning a bit about the physiology so the next time this comes up you wouldn't perpetuate misinformation. My bad, Shane
These forums are for the friendly sharing information. I was doing exactly that sharing how and why I use a foam roller. I am sorry you felt like you had to reply in such a douchie know-it all -in manner attempt to make others feel little. As a "coach"/BT forum member that is definitely not the way to go about it. Maybe you should take a communications class instead of so many physio classes.

Personally, I don't think there's a thing wrong with Shane's communication skills, plus he's one of the most knowledgeable people here on BT who regularly demonstrates great patience in trying to educate others and dispel the many myths and bro science throughout this sport.  Lactic acid is one of the most stubborn myths that just refuses to go away.

I assume you're on this site because you're interested in the sport of triathlon, which implies an interest in getting better at it.  Understanding the science is necessary to some extent to improve. 

BTW, I agree 100% with the information he's posted in this thread.



Edited by TriMyBest 2013-06-12 3:48 PM
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