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2013-07-07 4:51 PM

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Subject: Bike ability vs Running ability
Hi,

I am intrigued as to why an individual's natural ability at cycling can be so different their natural ability at running.

I have been running for years and consider myself a very average runner (23 min 5k, 49 min 10k). I could get faster by training more, but I don't think I could ever be a great distance runner. I train 3 times per week, including some intervals and some longer runs. My run split is normally about halfway down the overall field in sprints and Olympic races.

I started cycling a couple of years ago, mainly to do triathlons, and I don't train very much. In the winter I don't cycle at all, and then for 6 months I cycle 1-2 times per week. Despite this lack of training, I can always finish in the top 20% overall in sprints and olympics. If I had the time and the inclination to train hard on the bike, I think I could become a very strong cyclist.

I clearly have a lot more natural ability at cycling, and I am struggling to understand why. Both running and cycling are endurance sports that use the leg muscles, yet I find cycling so much easier than running.





2013-07-07 6:18 PM
in reply to: lengthcroft

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Biking can be pretty equipment dependant. In any given short course race, there are more than a few people who are good runners but are racing on hybrid or road bikes, racing without clipless pedals or without any aero gear.
2013-07-07 7:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Slightly different muscles and difference in weight impact.

Cycling on most triathlong (flattish) courses has much less of a penalty for weight compared to running, which gives great advantage to lighter riders. So if you're a bigger guy, you'll likely outperform on flat courses since your speed is dictated by speed:aerodynamic ratio (not weight) on these flatter courses, compared to hills and running which is heavily impacted by how light you are.

Cycling also uses slightly different muscles and in a different way. When you start getting to FOP speeds, there's almost no overlap between improving on bike vs run since those differences are what gives you that top-end speed in both.

I'll also add that you're nowhere near your running potential if 3x/week is a 23:xx 5k for you. You could very well be a 17:xx-18:xx 5k runner if you ran to your potential, but it would take a lot more volume that what you're doing now. (I run 18:xx now, but prior to my years of pure running background, I was pretty much at 22-23 for 5k on similar training as you.)

Edited by yazmaster 2013-07-07 7:02 PM
2013-07-07 7:20 PM
in reply to: lengthcroft

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
What's your height and weight? And how do you fare on climbs on the bike? That's where you might expect a closer parallel between run and bike performance. Also, what kind of bike are you riding, and do you have a fairly well dialed-in aero position.

One of the easiest ways to get a bike > run difference is to be a big guy with a good aero position on the bike, on a flattish course. As already pointed out, that allows you to go fast on the bike without a weight penalty.

For my part, I'm the opposite. I'm no waif, but I guess I'm on the light-ish side for a triathlete (6'0, 162 lbs), and I'm a runner with less-than-perfect equipment and aero position. So I do moderately on flat bike courses, but far better on climbs.
2013-07-07 7:58 PM
in reply to: colinphillips

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Lot of different muscles in the legs, man.
2013-07-07 8:06 PM
in reply to: Batcheldor

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
I agree with the poster with people having different bikes. It also depends on who signs up.  When I ran my last marathon, I placed in the top 15%, top 30% for AG.  It sounds good but you have to remember that that includes people who "run" 6-7 hour marathons.  I just did my first HIM and I placed in the bottom 40%.  Big difference there.  It wasn't my best race but it does show the difference in caliber in people who sign up for different races.  Some races anyone joins and goes with a hybrid and are just having fun, other races more serious people sign up for.


2013-07-07 8:16 PM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by Blastman

I agree with the poster with people having different bikes. It also depends on who signs up.  When I ran my last marathon, I placed in the top 15%, top 30% for AG.  It sounds good but you have to remember that that includes people who "run" 6-7 hour marathons.  I just did my first HIM and I placed in the bottom 40%.  Big difference there.  It wasn't my best race but it does show the difference in caliber in people who sign up for different races.  Some races anyone joins and goes with a hybrid and are just having fun, other races more serious people sign up for.


This exactly. Never know who's going to show up. I did a HITS OLY and had the 4th fastest run split with 43 min. Did a local race and didn't even get top 10% with a 42 min run off the bike
2013-07-07 10:44 PM
in reply to: lengthcroft

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability

You could also look at it this way...if you're comparing your open 5k and 10k times to elite runners...then yes, your times are somewhat MOP.

But if you're finishing top 20% on the bike at Oly's and Sprints, I'd bet if you showed up to a bike race such as a TT or road race where the real elite bikers show up...you'd probably be MOP as well. 

2013-07-07 10:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability

My son is 15.  Nearly 27 mph on 10 mile bike TT, and 16:23 stand alone 5K, and sub 5 minute 500 SCY swim. He works is arse off on all three.....that's your answer. 

You can call it any way you like....the really fast guys work harder and, unfortunately for the rest of us , probably had a genetic edge to begin with.



Edited by Left Brain 2013-07-07 10:53 PM
2013-07-08 12:50 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
From what I've seen Sprint distances attract a lot of slower people (which is 100% super cool!), but that makes it considerably easier to do well if you are just somewhat committed to training. I did two Sprints in preparation for my 70.3 this year and both times I had top 10 placements in my age group (3 and 9 respectively), and had the third fastest overall run time in my first ever triathlon.

It was a very different story for the 70.3. :p
2013-07-08 3:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Just cycling (TT cycling) versus running (distance)in general... There is a lot of overlap. A great athlete in one is likely to respond well to training in the other and to have potential for success.

They both benefit from endurance and high vo2 max.

All else being equal, time trialing tends to favor taller athletes with a little more muscle mass and distance running tends to favor light weights.

However, comparing triathlon standings isn't necessarily a fair comparison of run versus bike ability. I'd say in a typical local triathlon, there are by far more people with competitive running backgrounds than competitive cyclists.

Edited by dredwards 2013-07-08 3:24 AM


2013-07-08 9:01 AM
in reply to: dredwards

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Well, I don't know why, but I have the opposite problem. I am at the top of my age group in Tri's and stand alone running races, in the run portion, but my cycling times are terrible and I am always at the back of the pack on the bike. I am a small woman 63" and about 113 lbs and just can't seem to hang. I always assumed in was just different muscle development. Admittedly I don't bike as much as a run, but since I never see much improvement on the bike, I just stopped trying to improve in that arena. I did upgrade my bike, which helped about a mile per hour, but that is all.
2013-07-08 9:08 AM
in reply to: topolina

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by topolina

Well, I don't know why, but I have the opposite problem. I am at the top of my age group in Tri's and stand alone running races, in the run portion, but my cycling times are terrible and I am always at the back of the pack on the bike. I am a small woman 63" and about 113 lbs and just can't seem to hang. I always assumed in was just different muscle development. Admittedly I don't bike as much as a run, but since I never see much improvement on the bike, I just stopped trying to improve in that arena. I did upgrade my bike, which helped about a mile per hour, but that is all.


In addition to the bolded, it is very likely that your absolute power numbers are lower than the athletes you are competing against due to your smaller size. While this is a benefit with running and would be if you were competing in events that involve bike legs with elevation gains, a typical triathlon bike course rewards absolute power so bigger athletes can tend to do better on the bike in a triathlon.

The improvement from the bike is nice and there are a few other things that you could do with little extra investment that could help improve your speed more (fit, good tires/tubes, aero helmet, disc cover, etc).

Shane
2013-07-08 9:32 AM
in reply to: topolina

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by topolina

Well, I don't know why, but I have the opposite problem. I am at the top of my age group in Tri's and stand alone running races, in the run portion, but my cycling times are terrible and I am always at the back of the pack on the bike. I am a small woman 63" and about 113 lbs and just can't seem to hang. I always assumed in was just different muscle development. Admittedly I don't bike as much as a run, but since I never see much improvement on the bike, I just stopped trying to improve in that arena. I did upgrade my bike, which helped about a mile per hour, but that is all.


Shane is right. Your size is a disadvantage on most bike courses found in triathlons. If you want to shine on the bike, seek out the nastiest, hilliest bike course that you can find

Check out Emma Pooley (UK) - one of the best climbers in cycling, and a pretty useful triathlete too, she recently won the Swissman Extreme Triathlon - she is quite small, and struggles on flatter courses, but kills in the mountains. Same for the riders in the Tour de France. The Colombian kid who got a lot of attention in the Pyrenees on the weekend and is currently leading the best young rider competition will likely get destroyed in Wednesday's time trial stage.
2013-07-08 10:16 AM
in reply to: topolina

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability

Originally posted by topolina Well, I don't know why, but I have the opposite problem. I am at the top of my age group in Tri's and stand alone running races, in the run portion, but my cycling times are terrible and I am always at the back of the pack on the bike. I am a small woman 63" and about 113 lbs and just can't seem to hang. I always assumed in was just different muscle development. Admittedly I don't bike as much as a run, but since I never see much improvement on the bike, I just stopped trying to improve in that arena. I did upgrade my bike, which helped about a mile per hour, but that is all.

If you bike more you will get faster.  In that regard it is the same as running.

Also, can you swim?  If so, find a draft legal race......you can hide in a pack on the bike so it's not nearly as important.

2013-07-08 4:00 PM
in reply to: lengthcroft

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability

For me, I find that I'm relatively strong on the bike and mediocre at best on the run.  In looking at my body, I can see why.  I have above average strength in my quads and calves and below average strength in my hammies and glutes.  I can produce a decent power/weight ratio on the bike and climb better than most.  I had a run analysis perfoemed and the instructor said I was the most calf dominant runner he's ever seen.  Most good runners get the majority of their power from their glutes.  I don't get much from there.  I work on it, but its slow to change body types and run forms.

Anyway, look at your body.  A bit lacking in glute strength relative to other leg muscles?  Probably won't be a great runner.



2013-07-08 4:22 PM
in reply to: colinphillips

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by colinphillips

What's your height and weight? And how do you fare on climbs on the bike? That's where you might expect a closer parallel between run and bike performance. Also, what kind of bike are you riding, and do you have a fairly well dialed-in aero position.

One of the easiest ways to get a bike > run difference is to be a big guy with a good aero position on the bike, on a flattish course. As already pointed out, that allows you to go fast on the bike without a weight penalty.

For my part, I'm the opposite. I'm no waif, but I guess I'm on the light-ish side for a triathlete (6'0, 162 lbs), and I'm a runner with less-than-perfect equipment and aero position. So I do moderately on flat bike courses, but far better on climbs.


That is a very good point, and something I have never thought of before. I am very poor on the hills, relative to other people. I have friends who cannot keep up with me on a flat time trial course but can kill me on the hills.

I ride a road bike with aero bars, but my position is far from ideal.

I wouldn't say I am a bigger guy - I am 5'9 and 158lbs - but I definitely don't have a distance runner's build. My legs are quite short and muscular, whereas most good distance runners seem to have long skinny legs.
2013-07-08 4:25 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by yazmaster

Slightly different muscles and difference in weight impact.

Cycling on most triathlong (flattish) courses has much less of a penalty for weight compared to running, which gives great advantage to lighter riders. So if you're a bigger guy, you'll likely outperform on flat courses since your speed is dictated by speed:aerodynamic ratio (not weight) on these flatter courses, compared to hills and running which is heavily impacted by how light you are.

Cycling also uses slightly different muscles and in a different way. When you start getting to FOP speeds, there's almost no overlap between improving on bike vs run since those differences are what gives you that top-end speed in both.

I'll also add that you're nowhere near your running potential if 3x/week is a 23:xx 5k for you. You could very well be a 17:xx-18:xx 5k runner if you ran to your potential, but it would take a lot more volume that what you're doing now. (I run 18:xx now, but prior to my years of pure running background, I was pretty much at 22-23 for 5k on similar training as you.)


Out of interest, what would I need to do to get to be a 18min 5k runner? I have been stuck on 23mins for 5k for a long time and am keen to get quicker.
2013-07-08 4:31 PM
in reply to: lengthcroft

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability

Originally posted by lengthcroft Out of interest, what would I need to do to get to be a 18min 5k runner? I have been stuck on 23mins for 5k for a long time and am keen to get quicker.

You need to run a lot more...consistently...over a long period of time.  Once you get up to that fitness level, it doesn't take as much to maintain it...but most sub 18 min 5kers likely have spent years running nearly everyday, around 50+ mpw.  Of course there are outliers who can do it on much less...and there are also outliers who need to do much more in order to get to that level.

2013-07-08 4:36 PM
in reply to: lengthcroft

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability

Originally posted by lengthcroftThat is a very good point, and something I have never thought of before. I am very poor on the hills, relative to other people. I have friends who cannot keep up with me on a flat time trial course but can kill me on the hills. I ride a road bike with aero bars, but my position is far from ideal. I wouldn't say I am a bigger guy - I am 5'9 and 158lbs - but I definitely don't have a distance runner's build. My legs are quite short and muscular, whereas most good distance runners seem to have long skinny legs.

 

I've been on and off bicycles since I was a kid, but only started running a couple years ago.  Yet I'll run 10K at a training pace that's faster than your PR and carry it for another 11.1K.  But you'd probably crush me on a bike, especially on a flat course.

Crush being a kind description of how that would go down.

Then again, I'm short, thin, have skinny legs, and I'm built like a distance runner.  It just took me 38 years to figure out that I should be a runner.

My AG in the one sprint Tri I've done was won by a cyclist though.  His time in the water was mediocre, and his run split was mid-pack, but he was 6 minutes faster on the bike than the 2nd place guy (who ran a 19m 5K). 

2013-07-08 4:40 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by lengthcroft Out of interest, what would I need to do to get to be a 18min 5k runner? I have been stuck on 23mins for 5k for a long time and am keen to get quicker.

You need to run a lot more...consistently...over a long period of time.  Once you get up to that fitness level, it doesn't take as much to maintain it...but most sub 18 min 5kers likely have spent years running nearly everyday, around 50+ mpw.  Of course there are outliers who can do it on much less...and there are also outliers who need to do much more in order to get to that level.

I don't think that's true.....or maybe it's just not true for young people.  I spend a considerable amount of time around running teenagers.....and many of them are sub sub 16 - 17:00 5K runners.  Most run ALOT less than 50 mpw....my son runs less than 20.  He swims a ton, and rides quite a bit, but we keep the run miles very low on his growing body.  It is the same for his peers who are also very fast. 

I think that most sub 18 and certainly sub 16 minute 5k'ers are born.  Yes, you have to put in the work at some point....but as you know, running 50 mpw won't make the majority of people sub 18:00 for 5K.  They'll get faster, but most people can't run a sub 18:00 5K no matter what they do.

 



2013-07-08 4:42 PM
in reply to: lengthcroft


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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by lengthcroft

Originally posted by yazmaster

Slightly different muscles and difference in weight impact.

Cycling on most triathlong (flattish) courses has much less of a penalty for weight compared to running, which gives great advantage to lighter riders. So if you're a bigger guy, you'll likely outperform on flat courses since your speed is dictated by speed:aerodynamic ratio (not weight) on these flatter courses, compared to hills and running which is heavily impacted by how light you are.

Cycling also uses slightly different muscles and in a different way. When you start getting to FOP speeds, there's almost no overlap between improving on bike vs run since those differences are what gives you that top-end speed in both.

I'll also add that you're nowhere near your running potential if 3x/week is a 23:xx 5k for you. You could very well be a 17:xx-18:xx 5k runner if you ran to your potential, but it would take a lot more volume that what you're doing now. (I run 18:xx now, but prior to my years of pure running background, I was pretty much at 22-23 for 5k on similar training as you.)


Out of interest, what would I need to do to get to be a 18min 5k runner? I have been stuck on 23mins for 5k for a long time and am keen to get quicker.


Pure running volume, for the most part. To get down to 17-18:xx, you'll likely have to train as a pure runner for at least 6-9 months at 50, then 70+mpw of running.

If that's wayyy too much running for you to fathom as a triathlete, you could still substantially improve just by bumping up your mileage by 30% (gradually) next season. That should shave a good 30-60 sec off your 5k based on how infrequently you run now.
2013-07-08 4:50 PM
in reply to: lengthcroft

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by lengthcroft

Out of interest, what would I need to do to get to be a 18min 5k runner? I have been stuck on 23mins for 5k for a long time and am keen to get quicker.


It's hard to say, because we don't know so much about your limiters (genetic and non-genetic). But if you run more for a while (like every day and 40+ mpw), and get as light as possible, then it'll become possible to see your trajectory more clearly. Doing these things will definitely get you faster, but it's hard to know by how much.
2013-07-08 6:06 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by lengthcroft Out of interest, what would I need to do to get to be a 18min 5k runner? I have been stuck on 23mins for 5k for a long time and am keen to get quicker.

You need to run a lot more...consistently...over a long period of time.  Once you get up to that fitness level, it doesn't take as much to maintain it...but most sub 18 min 5kers likely have spent years running nearly everyday, around 50+ mpw.  Of course there are outliers who can do it on much less...and there are also outliers who need to do much more in order to get to that level.

I don't think that's true.....or maybe it's just not true for young people.  I spend a considerable amount of time around running teenagers.....and many of them are sub sub 16 - 17:00 5K runners.  Most run ALOT less than 50 mpw....my son runs less than 20.  He swims a ton, and rides quite a bit, but we keep the run miles very low on his growing body.  It is the same for his peers who are also very fast. 

I think that most sub 18 and certainly sub 16 minute 5k'ers are born.  Yes, you have to put in the work at some point....but as you know, running 50 mpw won't make the majority of people sub 18:00 for 5K.  They'll get faster, but most people can't run a sub 18:00 5K no matter what they do.

If you're going to cite young athletes who are competing at the top of the state and national levels, then you are talking about some of the outliers...as you mention that some of them are "born."  Especially those who can go sub 16...which is a HUGE difference from sub 18. 

2013-07-08 10:54 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Bike ability vs Running ability
Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by lengthcroft Out of interest, what would I need to do to get to be a 18min 5k runner? I have been stuck on 23mins for 5k for a long time and am keen to get quicker.

You need to run a lot more...consistently...over a long period of time.  Once you get up to that fitness level, it doesn't take as much to maintain it...but most sub 18 min 5kers likely have spent years running nearly everyday, around 50+ mpw.  Of course there are outliers who can do it on much less...and there are also outliers who need to do much more in order to get to that level.

I don't think that's true.....or maybe it's just not true for young people.  I spend a considerable amount of time around running teenagers.....and many of them are sub sub 16 - 17:00 5K runners.  Most run ALOT less than 50 mpw....my son runs less than 20.  He swims a ton, and rides quite a bit, but we keep the run miles very low on his growing body.  It is the same for his peers who are also very fast. 

I think that most sub 18 and certainly sub 16 minute 5k'ers are born.  Yes, you have to put in the work at some point....but as you know, running 50 mpw won't make the majority of people sub 18:00 for 5K.  They'll get faster, but most people can't run a sub 18:00 5K no matter what they do.

If you're going to cite young athletes who are competing at the top of the state and national levels, then you are talking about some of the outliers...as you mention that some of them are "born."  Especially those who can go sub 16...which is a HUGE difference from sub 18. 

Jason...my point, though admittedly not well put together in my post, is that most of the folks who can run sub 18:00 didn't get there running 200 miles per month....and most people who run 200 miles per month will never get there.  In order to run sub 18, and yes, sub 16 (go spend some time at your local High school XC invitationals.....you're going to be stunned at how many of these kids run 15:XX - 16:XX for 5k and aren't at the top of anything) you have to have ability that in itself is an outlier...because 99% of the population can't get there, and I don't care how much they run.  Most of the 1% who can get there run a lot less than most people think they do.  I disagree that "most of them spent years running 50+ mpw"....ESPECIALLY triathletes who can do it.

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