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2013-08-23 1:46 PM
in reply to: lifejustice

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?

Originally posted by lifejustice HI GUYZZZZ!!!! IF A PLANE IS ON A TREADMILL RUNWAY, WILL IT BE ABLE TO TAKE OFF?!?! TOTZ CURIOUS!

Apparently.....if it has more gears.



2013-08-23 1:48 PM
in reply to: lifejustice

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by lifejustice

HI GUYZZZZ!!!!


IF A PLANE IS ON A TREADMILL RUNWAY, WILL IT BE ABLE TO TAKE OFF?!?!

TOTZ CURIOUS!


B.

2013-08-23 1:51 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by lifejustice HI GUYZZZZ!!!! IF A PLANE IS ON A TREADMILL RUNWAY, WILL IT BE ABLE TO TAKE OFF?!?! TOTZ CURIOUS!

Apparently.....if it has more gears.

It needs to slow down less faster.

2013-08-23 1:51 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?

What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

2013-08-23 1:54 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by Rogillio

It can be easier only if you slow your cadence.

You guys are aguing 10th grade physics and I am not disagreeing with that. My point is, if you keep the same cadence swimming it is NOT easier. If you keep the same cadence biking it IS easier.



As I said, reduce length of pull phase so you can maintain cadence. You're arguing to compare apples and oranges. You are arguing you should equate cadence with effort. Of course it is harder to swim at the same effort than to bike easier. That's not even 10th grade level.
2013-08-23 1:54 PM
in reply to: bradleyd3

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?

Originally posted by bradleyd3 What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

42



2013-08-23 1:58 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by bradleyd3 What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

42

African or European?

2013-08-23 3:13 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by bradleyd3 What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

42

African or European?



You have to know these things when you're king, you know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2R3FvS4xr4
2013-08-23 3:38 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Don't go getting too excited.

I did the Chattanooga Tri a couple of years ago.

First off all there is a dam just down river, so you are swimming in the pool.
Secondly, the swim course is well out of what little current there is. Now they may have a different swim course for IM, but the course description is almost word for word that of the Chattanooga Waterfront Tri.
2013-08-23 3:41 PM
in reply to: RZ0

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?

I would be really impressed by the dedicated swimmer who would actually put forth the same effort if they knew they had the current to help them.  Just like you see so many bikers coasting down hills (???), I suspect most swimmers would pull a little less hard in a river.

I swam in an unnoticeable current in the Tennessee River in Knoxville for Rev 3 a few years back.  It "felt" the same, but I got out a good 6 minutes faster than usual.  I am pretty sure that would have helped me later, if I wasn't doing a relay.

I swam in the Mississippi with a VERY strong current.  My 500 yard swim was over twice as fast as usual, literally.  I pretty much put my arms out and floated downstream at a rate of 100 yards/minute.  Honestly the hardest part about that was getting out without overshooting the exit!

2013-08-23 3:51 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl


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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
I did my first Olympic in a race with a river swim last month. There were participants who didn't even put their faces in the water, and finished in 35 minutes. Float, talk, crack jokes, wave at people on the shore....

I honestly had to ask myself why I went to a coach and put in all that time at the pool. Then I remembered that my next race is a lake swim.


2013-08-23 3:58 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by BikerGrrrl

I would be really impressed by the dedicated swimmer who would actually put forth the same effort if they knew they had the current to help them.  Just like you see so many bikers coasting down hills (???), I suspect most swimmers would pull a little less hard in a river.

I swam in an unnoticeable current in the Tennessee River in Knoxville for Rev 3 a few years back.  It "felt" the same, but I got out a good 6 minutes faster than usual.  I am pretty sure that would have helped me later, if I wasn't doing a relay.

I swam in the Mississippi with a VERY strong current.  My 500 yard swim was over twice as fast as usual, literally.  I pretty much put my arms out and floated downstream at a rate of 100 yards/minute.  Honestly the hardest part about that was getting out without overshooting the exit!


Well...coasting down a hill is a little different than swimming with less effort with the current...you probably had to pedal up that hill first, but in this situation, you didn't swim upstream first to enjoy the benefits of coming back down stream.

And, yeah, I'm a little lazy when I've crested a hill...I'll coast for a short bit. No lies.
2013-08-23 4:22 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Of course it is easier in a race to swim with a current than in calm water or against the current. Since races are measured based on position relative to the land, you either get a speed boost or a shorter course depending on how you want to look at it. In an oly, if you're swimming at threshold for 25 minutes in calm conditions and then swim 20 with the current, you've done less work and will have more left for the bike and run.

The problem with comparing this to biking downhill (which isn't really valid since many coast downhill) or with a tailwind is that it is possible to get to the point that you can't maintain power as you run out of gears so the downhill or tailwind section feels easier because you are not working as hard even though you may be going faster. With swimming, you are also going faster (relative to the ground, not the water) but because of the viscosity of water, it is hard to "run out of gears" since you will be able to establish a good pull on the water. The same is not true on the bike as the fluid is less dense but also you are applying the force to the ground while moving through the fluid. If you were flying and pulling the air instead, flying downwind would be very similar to swimming downstream.

Shane
2013-08-23 5:05 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Rogillio

It can be easier only if you slow your cadence.

You guys are aguing 10th grade physics and I am not disagreeing with that. My point is, if you keep the same cadence swimming it is NOT easier. If you keep the same cadence biking it IS easier.



As I said, reduce length of pull phase so you can maintain cadence. You're arguing to compare apples and oranges. You are arguing you should equate cadence with effort. Of course it is harder to swim at the same effort than to bike easier. That's not even 10th grade level.


Exactly. Apples and oranges. This is why I started this thread. I had read a comment on ST that the "down river swim in Chattanooga was like biking downhill" and I don't think it is. Certainly the net effect is faster times but when I'm swimming in the river, I don't really know I'm going faster unless I see something stationary. Other swimmers, relative to me, are not moving any faster than they would otherwise. I don't think people judge how fast they are going relative to the bank......they judge their speed by their effort.

I did Chattanooga Waterfront twice and both times my swim pace was 10 seconds/100 faster than my normal pace.

On one hill in IMKY I hit 45 mph. At that rate, there is no pedaling at all. I think that is what the PP was referring to.

I hope IMChatt is an 'easy' swim. But it will be easy because we will be in the water less time. The effort per unit time will not be any easier than a lake or pool swim.
2013-08-24 1:58 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Is swimming 3.6km easier than swimming 3.9km?The effort you put in for each stroke would be near identical so the actual act of swimming in a current isn't any easier, however you are swimming a shorter distance so yes it is easier.
2013-08-24 7:45 AM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by BikerGrrrl

I would be really impressed by the dedicated swimmer who would actually put forth the same effort if they knew they had the current to help them.  Just like you see so many bikers coasting down hills (???), I suspect most swimmers would pull a little less hard in a river.

I swam in an unnoticeable current in the Tennessee River in Knoxville for Rev 3 a few years back.  It "felt" the same, but I got out a good 6 minutes faster than usual.  I am pretty sure that would have helped me later, if I wasn't doing a relay.

I swam in the Mississippi with a VERY strong current.  My 500 yard swim was over twice as fast as usual, literally.  I pretty much put my arms out and floated downstream at a rate of 100 yards/minute.  Honestly the hardest part about that was getting out without overshooting the exit!




I did Chattanooga last year and at one point swam past a group of people (let's call them 'racers') treading water and talking. Made me feel fast.


2013-08-24 7:48 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by Rogillio

I hope IMChatt is an 'easy' swim. But it will be easy because we will be in the water less time. The effort per unit time will not be any easier than a lake or pool swim.


Unless there's a hurricane in the area, *conditions* will not be a factor. So....

It's possible to swim hard. It's possible to swim easy. Make it whatever you want.
2013-08-24 8:36 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by BikerGrrrl

I would be really impressed by the dedicated swimmer who would actually put forth the same effort if they knew they had the current to help them.  Just like you see so many bikers coasting down hills (???), I suspect most swimmers would pull a little less hard in a river.

I swam in an unnoticeable current in the Tennessee River in Knoxville for Rev 3 a few years back.  It "felt" the same, but I got out a good 6 minutes faster than usual.  I am pretty sure that would have helped me later, if I wasn't doing a relay.

I swam in the Mississippi with a VERY strong current.  My 500 yard swim was over twice as fast as usual, literally.  I pretty much put my arms out and floated downstream at a rate of 100 yards/minute.  Honestly the hardest part about that was getting out without overshooting the exit!




I thnk this response best addresses the OP's question. Despite the fact that we often talk about our "engine", we're not machines. The question of easy versus hard has as much to do with our perception of the experience, as it does with our power output. Biking down hill feels easy because it's fun and because we get more reward for our effort. And also because most people tend to put out less effort when gravity is helping them.

I imagine that swimming with the current would be similar, provided that you have reference points that give you a sensation of speed. It will feel easier and many people will tend to back off on the effort. Without those reference points swimming with the current probably feels the same as swimming without current.

If you will finish a swim in half the time shouldn't you swim at s slightly higer power level? In this case it's possible to argue that you are swimming harder. The answer partly depends on how you define easier. Which is the easier race to run - 5km or 10km? 10km requires more total energy output while 5km requires higher power output. Of course it also depends on which race distance you like the most.
Don

Edited by donw 2013-08-24 8:37 AM
2013-08-24 8:40 AM
in reply to: donw

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Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier?
Originally posted by donw

Originally posted by BikerGrrrl

I would be really impressed by the dedicated swimmer who would actually put forth the same effort if they knew they had the current to help them.  Just like you see so many bikers coasting down hills (???), I suspect most swimmers would pull a little less hard in a river.

I swam in an unnoticeable current in the Tennessee River in Knoxville for Rev 3 a few years back.  It "felt" the same, but I got out a good 6 minutes faster than usual.  I am pretty sure that would have helped me later, if I wasn't doing a relay.

I swam in the Mississippi with a VERY strong current.  My 500 yard swim was over twice as fast as usual, literally.  I pretty much put my arms out and floated downstream at a rate of 100 yards/minute.  Honestly the hardest part about that was getting out without overshooting the exit!




I thnk this response best addresses the OP's question. Despite the fact that we often talk about our "engine", we're not machines. The question of easy versus hard has as much to do with our perception of the experience, as it does with our power output. Biking down hill feels easy because it's fun and because we get more reward for our effort. And also because most people tend to put out less effort when gravity is helping them.

I imagine that swimming with the current would be similar, provided that you have reference points that give you a sensation of speed. It will feel easier and many people will tend to back off on the effort. Without those reference points swimming with the current probably feels the same as swimming without current.

If you will finish a swim in half the time shouldn't you swim at s slightly higer power level? In this case it's possible to argue that you are swimming harder. The answer partly depends on how you define easier. Which is the easier race to run - 5km or 10km? 10km requires more total energy output while 5km requires higher power output. Of course it also depends on which race distance you like the most.
Don


Well said.
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