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Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. (Page 3)
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 2013-12-17 12:18 PM in reply to: KSH |
Member  465  |  Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control.Originally posted by KSH Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by mehaner I agree, it's an idea not without its flaws...I realize that. I'm just tossing out potential ideas. As it stands, doing nothing...isn't the answer either. Reacting by imposing stricter gun laws, that won't do anything. If someone (a teenager, adult, etc) wishes to hurt others, he/she will find a way to find an accessible weapon to do so. So...to me, it's not about gun control...it's about how to become more proactive to helping troubled kids before they go down a violent path. How to do that, not quite sure. :/ Originally posted by SGirl Yes, exactly.  Agreed. Not an easy or quick fix by any means, but if as a community ...people start reporting 'odd' behaviors at the first signs of them with respect to troubled youth behaviors, then we might see a change. It's not a guarantee, but it's a start in the right direction. It's important to educate students for example, when it comes to facebook, as that is where a lot of troubled kids 'air' their problems. So, students should be mindful to report behaviors they deem as out of the norm, and adults can then take it from there. I know this takes courage, and might seem intrusive at first, but quite a few of these shooting stories have as a common theme...a troubled youth, who many around him thought was troubled, 'different,' 'strange,' depressed, a loner...etc....etc...but, no one took it further than that. Healthy minded, well adjusted teenagers don't shoot people and then commit suicide. Something far deeper was going on here, and the incident at the school, was what pushed him over the edge. Increasing gun control or not...this incident most likely would still have happened...and will likely happen again and again, until we start getting to the heart of what ails these kids. Just my $.02 dealing with depression is hard enough for a teenager to deal with, now let's add being labeled a potential psychopath. i dunno, there are lots of weird lonely kids out there that wouldn't hurt a soul. i agree that mental illness is the root cause, but you can't just lock up every person you think is odd. and giving teenagers the right to report that? a whole new weapon in a bullying arsenal. Here's my question... so teenagers were bullied and depressed 20-30 years ago. What has changed that now those teenagers go on a shooting rampage vs. not going on one? When I was in school there were weird kids who were picked on, but they never came into school shooting up the place. What occurred that made these kids cross that line? What has made them start doing it?
Just my opinion..... Moral decay and the rejection of traditional values and spirituality in favor of progressive change. The end result it that you reap what you sow. |
| 2013-12-17 12:21 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655  | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by KSH Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by mehaner I agree, it's an idea not without its flaws...I realize that. I'm just tossing out potential ideas. As it stands, doing nothing...isn't the answer either. Reacting by imposing stricter gun laws, that won't do anything. If someone (a teenager, adult, etc) wishes to hurt others, he/she will find a way to find an accessible weapon to do so. So...to me, it's not about gun control...it's about how to become more proactive to helping troubled kids before they go down a violent path. How to do that, not quite sure. :/ Originally posted by SGirl Yes, exactly. Agreed. Not an easy or quick fix by any means, but if as a community ...people start reporting 'odd' behaviors at the first signs of them with respect to troubled youth behaviors, then we might see a change. It's not a guarantee, but it's a start in the right direction. It's important to educate students for example, when it comes to facebook, as that is where a lot of troubled kids 'air' their problems. So, students should be mindful to report behaviors they deem as out of the norm, and adults can then take it from there. I know this takes courage, and might seem intrusive at first, but quite a few of these shooting stories have as a common theme...a troubled youth, who many around him thought was troubled, 'different,' 'strange,' depressed, a loner...etc....etc...but, no one took it further than that. Healthy minded, well adjusted teenagers don't shoot people and then commit suicide. Something far deeper was going on here, and the incident at the school, was what pushed him over the edge. Increasing gun control or not...this incident most likely would still have happened...and will likely happen again and again, until we start getting to the heart of what ails these kids. Just my $.02 dealing with depression is hard enough for a teenager to deal with, now let's add being labeled a potential psychopath. i dunno, there are lots of weird lonely kids out there that wouldn't hurt a soul. i agree that mental illness is the root cause, but you can't just lock up every person you think is odd. and giving teenagers the right to report that? a whole new weapon in a bullying arsenal. Here's my question... so teenagers were bullied and depressed 20-30 years ago. What has changed that now those teenagers go on a shooting rampage vs. not going on one? When I was in school there were weird kids who were picked on, but they never came into school shooting up the place. What occurred that made these kids cross that line? What has made them start doing it?
No easy answer, but if I had to put a word on it I would say Hopelessness and Selfishness. For one that has no hope, consequences mean nothing. For a kid that is hopeless and selfish, they want to inflict as much pain on the world as they can when they punch out. There have always been teen suicides, but now the kids have a way they can "go out in infamy". This is one of the reasons I get frustrated with the media reporting everything about these shooters. It's fulfilling their dying wish, IMHO, and letting the next guy know that he'll get the same treatment. It's video games. Over the weekend my kid and 2 of his buddies were playing x-box, Grand Theft Auto.....I wandered down the stairs for something and stood there and watched for a minute.....my kid turns to me at one point and says, "dad, you might want to head back upstairs, we're going to have to shoot alot of cops to get out of here". LOL Edited by Left Brain 2013-12-17 12:22 PM |
| 2013-12-17 12:28 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 3126   Boise, ID | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by KSH Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by mehaner I agree, it's an idea not without its flaws...I realize that. I'm just tossing out potential ideas. As it stands, doing nothing...isn't the answer either. Reacting by imposing stricter gun laws, that won't do anything. If someone (a teenager, adult, etc) wishes to hurt others, he/she will find a way to find an accessible weapon to do so. So...to me, it's not about gun control...it's about how to become more proactive to helping troubled kids before they go down a violent path. How to do that, not quite sure. :/ Originally posted by SGirl Yes, exactly. Agreed. Not an easy or quick fix by any means, but if as a community ...people start reporting 'odd' behaviors at the first signs of them with respect to troubled youth behaviors, then we might see a change. It's not a guarantee, but it's a start in the right direction. It's important to educate students for example, when it comes to facebook, as that is where a lot of troubled kids 'air' their problems. So, students should be mindful to report behaviors they deem as out of the norm, and adults can then take it from there. I know this takes courage, and might seem intrusive at first, but quite a few of these shooting stories have as a common theme...a troubled youth, who many around him thought was troubled, 'different,' 'strange,' depressed, a loner...etc....etc...but, no one took it further than that. Healthy minded, well adjusted teenagers don't shoot people and then commit suicide. Something far deeper was going on here, and the incident at the school, was what pushed him over the edge. Increasing gun control or not...this incident most likely would still have happened...and will likely happen again and again, until we start getting to the heart of what ails these kids. Just my $.02 dealing with depression is hard enough for a teenager to deal with, now let's add being labeled a potential psychopath. i dunno, there are lots of weird lonely kids out there that wouldn't hurt a soul. i agree that mental illness is the root cause, but you can't just lock up every person you think is odd. and giving teenagers the right to report that? a whole new weapon in a bullying arsenal. Here's my question... so teenagers were bullied and depressed 20-30 years ago. What has changed that now those teenagers go on a shooting rampage vs. not going on one? When I was in school there were weird kids who were picked on, but they never came into school shooting up the place. What occurred that made these kids cross that line? What has made them start doing it?
No easy answer, but if I had to put a word on it I would say Hopelessness and Selfishness. For one that has no hope, consequences mean nothing. For a kid that is hopeless and selfish, they want to inflict as much pain on the world as they can when they punch out. There have always been teen suicides, but now the kids have a way they can "go out in infamy". This is one of the reasons I get frustrated with the media reporting everything about these shooters. It's fulfilling their dying wish, IMHO, and letting the next guy know that he'll get the same treatment. It's video games. Over the weekend my kid and 2 of his buddies were playing x-box, Grand Theft Auto.....I wandered down the stairs for something and stood there and watched for a minute.....my kid turns to me at one point and says, "dad, you might want to head back upstairs, we're going to have to shoot alot of cops to get out of here". LOL LOL that is awesome!
Answer to the original question though. I think the media blows things way out of proportion to fit their agenda. I remember an article that went around this time last year, it was about a school bombing in the late 1800's that killed 50 some people (going off memory here). School shootings and other violence are not new, it is just a convenient tool for the current political agenda. Very quick google search shows this article. Not vetted by me in any way but his graph shows the worst of it from 1975-1999 by a wide margin. http://jwilliams61735.hubpages.com/hub/Brief-of-the-History-and-Analysis-of-US-School-Violence |
| 2013-12-17 1:16 PM in reply to: KSH |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by KSH True, bullying has been going on since the dawn of time…but, perhaps, what has changed over the past few decades, is the advancements of technology. The way we expect things done yesterday. An expectation of instant gratification, and if we can’t have whatever we are seeking right this minute, we grow impatient. The way we communicate has also taken a turn. ‘’Likes’’ on facebook and such have caused society as a whole, to ‘expect’ compliments at every turn…even for things that are undeserving of them. (‘’Look at me everyone, I went to Starbucks today…weee!’’) (and a zillion ‘’likes’’ follow suit) Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by mehaner I agree, it's an idea not without its flaws...I realize that. I'm just tossing out potential ideas. As it stands, doing nothing...isn't the answer either. Reacting by imposing stricter gun laws, that won't do anything. If someone (a teenager, adult, etc) wishes to hurt others, he/she will find a way to find an accessible weapon to do so. So...to me, it's not about gun control...it's about how to become more proactive to helping troubled kids before they go down a violent path. How to do that, not quite sure. :/ Originally posted by SGirl Yes, exactly. Agreed. Not an easy or quick fix by any means, but if as a community ...people start reporting 'odd' behaviors at the first signs of them with respect to troubled youth behaviors, then we might see a change. It's not a guarantee, but it's a start in the right direction. It's important to educate students for example, when it comes to facebook, as that is where a lot of troubled kids 'air' their problems. So, students should be mindful to report behaviors they deem as out of the norm, and adults can then take it from there. I know this takes courage, and might seem intrusive at first, but quite a few of these shooting stories have as a common theme...a troubled youth, who many around him thought was troubled, 'different,' 'strange,' depressed, a loner...etc....etc...but, no one took it further than that. Healthy minded, well adjusted teenagers don't shoot people and then commit suicide. Something far deeper was going on here, and the incident at the school, was what pushed him over the edge. Increasing gun control or not...this incident most likely would still have happened...and will likely happen again and again, until we start getting to the heart of what ails these kids. Just my $.02 dealing with depression is hard enough for a teenager to deal with, now let's add being labeled a potential psychopath. i dunno, there are lots of weird lonely kids out there that wouldn't hurt a soul. i agree that mental illness is the root cause, but you can't just lock up every person you think is odd. and giving teenagers the right to report that? a whole new weapon in a bullying arsenal. Here's my question... so teenagers were bullied and depressed 20-30 years ago. What has changed that now those teenagers go on a shooting rampage vs. not going on one? When I was in school there were weird kids who were picked on, but they never came into school shooting up the place. What occurred that made these kids cross that line? What has made them start doing it?
Having said that—I can’t help but wonder if kids just don’t ‘like’ reality anymore. They don’t like being told no. They don’t deal well with rejection, because technology has made it such that they never really need to face it. Technology is great, but it has caused society as a whole, to become dependent upon it. Dependent upon it for satisfaction, and approval. When we shut the computer off…there is our life. Good bad, whatever. Dealing with struggles and such, is part of life. And you don’t get a bunch of ‘thumbs up’ and ‘likes’ for every positive thing you do. (Although, that would be cool, I have to admit) lol I’m guessing, but I think technology plays a big role in how kids deal with the stresses of everyday life, and reality. OFFLINE reality. |
| 2013-12-17 2:02 PM in reply to: SGirl |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by KSH True, bullying has been going on since the dawn of time…but, perhaps, what has changed over the past few decades, is the advancements of technology. The way we expect things done yesterday. An expectation of instant gratification, and if we can’t have whatever we are seeking right this minute, we grow impatient. The way we communicate has also taken a turn. ‘’Likes’’ on facebook and such have caused society as a whole, to ‘expect’ compliments at every turn…even for things that are undeserving of them. (‘’Look at me everyone, I went to Starbucks today…weee!’&rsquoOriginally posted by SGirl Originally posted by mehaner I agree, it's an idea not without its flaws...I realize that. I'm just tossing out potential ideas. As it stands, doing nothing...isn't the answer either. Reacting by imposing stricter gun laws, that won't do anything. If someone (a teenager, adult, etc) wishes to hurt others, he/she will find a way to find an accessible weapon to do so. So...to me, it's not about gun control...it's about how to become more proactive to helping troubled kids before they go down a violent path. How to do that, not quite sure. :/ Originally posted by SGirl Yes, exactly. Agreed. Not an easy or quick fix by any means, but if as a community ...people start reporting 'odd' behaviors at the first signs of them with respect to troubled youth behaviors, then we might see a change. It's not a guarantee, but it's a start in the right direction. It's important to educate students for example, when it comes to facebook, as that is where a lot of troubled kids 'air' their problems. So, students should be mindful to report behaviors they deem as out of the norm, and adults can then take it from there. I know this takes courage, and might seem intrusive at first, but quite a few of these shooting stories have as a common theme...a troubled youth, who many around him thought was troubled, 'different,' 'strange,' depressed, a loner...etc....etc...but, no one took it further than that. Healthy minded, well adjusted teenagers don't shoot people and then commit suicide. Something far deeper was going on here, and the incident at the school, was what pushed him over the edge. Increasing gun control or not...this incident most likely would still have happened...and will likely happen again and again, until we start getting to the heart of what ails these kids. Just my $.02 dealing with depression is hard enough for a teenager to deal with, now let's add being labeled a potential psychopath. i dunno, there are lots of weird lonely kids out there that wouldn't hurt a soul. i agree that mental illness is the root cause, but you can't just lock up every person you think is odd. and giving teenagers the right to report that? a whole new weapon in a bullying arsenal. Here's my question... so teenagers were bullied and depressed 20-30 years ago. What has changed that now those teenagers go on a shooting rampage vs. not going on one? When I was in school there were weird kids who were picked on, but they never came into school shooting up the place. What occurred that made these kids cross that line? What has made them start doing it?
 (and a zillion ‘’likes’’ follow suit) Having said that—I can’t help but wonder if kids just don’t ‘like’ reality anymore. They don’t like being told no. They don’t deal well with rejection, because technology has made it such that they never really need to face it. Technology is great, but it has caused society as a whole, to become dependent upon it. Dependent upon it for satisfaction, and approval. When we shut the computer off…there is our life. Good bad, whatever. Dealing with struggles and such, is part of life. And you don’t get a bunch of ‘thumbs up’ and ‘likes’ for every positive thing you do. (Although, that would be cool, I have to admit) lol I’m guessing, but I think technology plays a big role in how kids deal with the stresses of everyday life, and reality. OFFLINE reality. Yes it does, but I had technology growing up, with one big difference. As I was leaving high school things started to change. Teachers couldn't grade out papers in red, because it might hurt our feelings. seriously. We didn't get F's, we got E's because they didn't want people to "fail." Retakes were required to be offered on one test per semester if you got a bad grade. Regular English was disbanded and everyone had to take honors English, because they wanted everyone to be able to take an honors class. Dodgeball was gone, soon followed by other ball sports in the younger schools. The list goes on. It is almost like the schools are so afraid of letting little johny or jane get hurt in any way that they removed anything that could be negative. Then they try to blame video games and the internet when the kids don't have the skills to handle negative things in their life. |
| 2013-12-17 2:20 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 4313 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by Left Brain p> It's video games. And rock-n-roll.... Like him or not....Eminem said the below in 99 or 2000 in the song "The way I am"...and it sums a lot of it up: When a dude's getting bullied and shoots up his school And they blame it on Marilyn and the heroin But where were the parents at? Edited by bradleyd3 2013-12-17 2:23 PM |
| 2013-12-17 2:27 PM in reply to: bradleyd3 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by Left Brain p> And rock-n-roll.... Like him or not....Eminem said the below in 99 or 2000 in the song "The way I am"...and it sums a lot of it up: When a dude's getting bullied and shoots up his school And they blame it on Marilyn and the heroin But where were the parents at? It's video games. Interesting that you quote Eminem....he's my kid's favortie artist. When I first listened to the words in the music I told him that I didn't want him listening to that crap. My son pleaded wtih me to actually listen to the words and forget about all the cursing, etc. Then he had me read a few aritcles about Mathers and his life. It's safe to say I lost that round and am now proud that my kids enjoy his music. |
| 2013-12-17 2:33 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by dmiller5 Yes, true. Excellent points. Combination of the two, perhaps? (and of course, for someone to storm into a school …shooting his/her classmates/teachers…there has to be some deeper issues at hand, as well) Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by KSH True, bullying has been going on since the dawn of time…but, perhaps, what has changed over the past few decades, is the advancements of technology. The way we expect things done yesterday. An expectation of instant gratification, and if we can’t have whatever we are seeking right this minute, we grow impatient. The way we communicate has also taken a turn. ‘’Likes’’ on facebook and such have caused society as a whole, to ‘expect’ compliments at every turn…even for things that are undeserving of them. (‘’Look at me everyone, I went to Starbucks today…weee!’’) (and a zillion ‘’likes’’ follow suit) Having said that—I can’t help but wonder if kids just don’t ‘like’ reality anymore. They don’t like being told no. They don’t deal well with rejection, because technology has made it such that they never really need to face it. Technology is great, but it has caused society as a whole, to become dependent upon it. Dependent upon it for satisfaction, and approval. When we shut the computer off…there is our life. Good bad, whatever. Dealing with struggles and such, is part of life. And you don’t get a bunch of ‘thumbs up’ and ‘likes’ for every positive thing you do. (Although, that would be cool, I have to admit) lol I’m guessing, but I think technology plays a big role in how kids deal with the stresses of everyday life, and reality. OFFLINE reality. Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by mehaner I agree, it's an idea not without its flaws...I realize that. I'm just tossing out potential ideas. As it stands, doing nothing...isn't the answer either. Reacting by imposing stricter gun laws, that won't do anything. If someone (a teenager, adult, etc) wishes to hurt others, he/she will find a way to find an accessible weapon to do so. So...to me, it's not about gun control...it's about how to become more proactive to helping troubled kids before they go down a violent path. How to do that, not quite sure. :/ Originally posted by SGirl Yes, exactly. Agreed. Not an easy or quick fix by any means, but if as a community ...people start reporting 'odd' behaviors at the first signs of them with respect to troubled youth behaviors, then we might see a change. It's not a guarantee, but it's a start in the right direction. It's important to educate students for example, when it comes to facebook, as that is where a lot of troubled kids 'air' their problems. So, students should be mindful to report behaviors they deem as out of the norm, and adults can then take it from there. I know this takes courage, and might seem intrusive at first, but quite a few of these shooting stories have as a common theme...a troubled youth, who many around him thought was troubled, 'different,' 'strange,' depressed, a loner...etc....etc...but, no one took it further than that. Healthy minded, well adjusted teenagers don't shoot people and then commit suicide. Something far deeper was going on here, and the incident at the school, was what pushed him over the edge. Increasing gun control or not...this incident most likely would still have happened...and will likely happen again and again, until we start getting to the heart of what ails these kids. Just my $.02 dealing with depression is hard enough for a teenager to deal with, now let's add being labeled a potential psychopath. i dunno, there are lots of weird lonely kids out there that wouldn't hurt a soul. i agree that mental illness is the root cause, but you can't just lock up every person you think is odd. and giving teenagers the right to report that? a whole new weapon in a bullying arsenal. Here's my question... so teenagers were bullied and depressed 20-30 years ago. What has changed that now those teenagers go on a shooting rampage vs. not going on one? When I was in school there were weird kids who were picked on, but they never came into school shooting up the place. What occurred that made these kids cross that line? What has made them start doing it?
Yes it does, but I had technology growing up, with one big difference. As I was leaving high school things started to change. Teachers couldn't grade out papers in red, because it might hurt our feelings. seriously. We didn't get F's, we got E's because they didn't want people to "fail." Retakes were required to be offered on one test per semester if you got a bad grade. Regular English was disbanded and everyone had to take honors English, because they wanted everyone to be able to take an honors class. Dodgeball was gone, soon followed by other ball sports in the younger schools. The list goes on. It is almost like the schools are so afraid of letting little johny or jane get hurt in any way that they removed anything that could be negative. Then they try to blame video games and the internet when the kids don't have the skills to handle negative things in their life. (I never liked Dodgeball as a kid, frankly…) :=}} |
| 2013-12-17 2:44 PM in reply to: bradleyd3 |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by Left Brain p> It's video games. And rock-n-roll.... Like him or not....Eminem said the below in 99 or 2000 in the song "The way I am"...and it sums a lot of it up: When a dude's getting bullied and shoots up his school And they blame it on Marilyn and the heroin But where were the parents at? They're at home, digging through their closet and saying `Where the fu** did I leave my gun???' |
| 2013-12-21 10:26 AM in reply to: jeffnboise |
| 265 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. I'm a few days late here. But as a former CO student there are "meaningful measures" in place in CO schools with the Emily Keyes foundation's standard protocol they promote throughout the US. Something we can all do is stop posting on FB, Stop making such a big deal out of this for the WRONG REASONS. Eric Harris & Dillom Klebold are heroes among the basement dwelling misfits whose parent have done a poor job teaching wrong, right, & Discipline. We so often remember the criminal instead of the victims. We recall the shooters names but not those if the lives the took or affected. The media, and in turn many of us focus on THE SHOOTER or THE GUN instead of the victim. Quit making the people who perform these crimes famous. They are seeking attention and that is exactly what thy know they'll get by acting out. Turn off your tv and go drop off some flowers. We and the media are enabling and feeding the fire by "building up" the shooter, using buzz words like "mass shooting," "total devastation" etc. to increase ratings. These students would have found a way to hurt people with or without a gun. They do not deserve our thoughts or time. Give your attention to the victims. |
| 2013-12-21 11:53 AM in reply to: Jackemy1 |
| Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by Jackemy1 Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... |
| 2013-12-23 10:45 AM in reply to: DanielG |
Expert 2180 Boise, Idaho | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. |
| 2013-12-23 10:50 AM in reply to: jeffnboise |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by jeffnboise Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. The schools pay for it here.......75% of the Officer's salary/benefits, and a percentage (noit sure what it is) of the cost of a vehicle. We split the cost of continued training with the schools, but that's it. |
| 2013-12-23 12:39 PM in reply to: jeffnboise |
| Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by jeffnboise Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. I don't recall saying anything about which good guy with a gun is needed. But now that you bring it up, if you wouldn't mind showing where those schools that have allowed CCW for non-cops for at least 10 years that I'm aware of have had any instance of misuse, unlawful use, wrongful shooting, etc by a CCW holder, you might even make me think twice in pushing to allow it. Previously, prior to about 1986, such arguments as yours "I'm not so sure I want..." held some weight because there wasn't any real history or data to go by to decide if the cost outweighed the benefit. Today, "I'm not so sure I want" means the person hasn't really done any research into the topic and nothing more. Quite a few states allow CCW on campus of universities, more than a few allow it on school property of pretty much all levels so there is data on misuse of firearms. Well, there would be if there had been. Sorry, until you can prove (not "I'm not sure I want" but prove) CCW holders harm more than they help, let's allow the right to keep and bear arms more often than not. |
| 2013-12-30 11:19 PM in reply to: DanielG |
| Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I think they need bigger signs saying that schools are "gun free zones". |
| 2013-12-31 12:23 PM in reply to: DanielG |
Expert 2180 Boise, Idaho | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by jeffnboise I don't recall saying anything about which good guy with a gun is needed. But now that you bring it up, if you wouldn't mind showing where those schools that have allowed CCW for non-cops for at least 10 years that I'm aware of have had any instance of misuse, unlawful use, wrongful shooting, etc by a CCW holder, you might even make me think twice in pushing to allow it. Previously, prior to about 1986, such arguments as yours "I'm not so sure I want..." held some weight because there wasn't any real history or data to go by to decide if the cost outweighed the benefit. Today, "I'm not so sure I want" means the person hasn't really done any research into the topic and nothing more. Quite a few states allow CCW on campus of universities, more than a few allow it on school property of pretty much all levels so there is data on misuse of firearms. Well, there would be if there had been. Sorry, until you can prove (not "I'm not sure I want" but prove) CCW holders harm more than they help, let's allow the right to keep and bear arms more often than not. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. I'm not against guns. I'm against unqualified people with guns. Do you want to be cut on by a surgeon who 'studied' and took a 8 hr course on surgery but never proved his/her ability? OR Do you want someone who has dedicated their life to their craft, who trains frequently and is mandated to regularly demonstrate their proficiency. My misgivings about guns are not just in whose 2A Rights have been protected, but rather the actual capability of the person shooting the gun. Shooting is a skill. And it requires regular practice. Also needed is the mind-set to make the split-second decisions that lead up to pulling a trigger or NOT pulling it? I will continue to demand any person tasked with using a weapon to protect MY kid in his/her classroom should be AT LEAST as qualified as the teacher in his classroom. And as for the research-I looked a bit, but couldn't find any. You likely won't find any, either. The ATF and DOJ were limited years ago from keeping all KINDS of statistics that the NRA thought were anti-gun. So, your claims are as valid, or INvalid as mine, it seems. You'll be pleased to know the ACA (aka OhBahmaCare) also has a provision that limits how the information gathered by medical authorities treating firearm-related injuries is used. That should make the NRA smile, right? Happy New Year! |
| 2013-12-31 10:21 PM in reply to: jeffnboise |
| Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by jeffnboise Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by jeffnboise I don't recall saying anything about which good guy with a gun is needed. But now that you bring it up, if you wouldn't mind showing where those schools that have allowed CCW for non-cops for at least 10 years that I'm aware of have had any instance of misuse, unlawful use, wrongful shooting, etc by a CCW holder, you might even make me think twice in pushing to allow it. Previously, prior to about 1986, such arguments as yours "I'm not so sure I want..." held some weight because there wasn't any real history or data to go by to decide if the cost outweighed the benefit. Today, "I'm not so sure I want" means the person hasn't really done any research into the topic and nothing more. Quite a few states allow CCW on campus of universities, more than a few allow it on school property of pretty much all levels so there is data on misuse of firearms. Well, there would be if there had been. Sorry, until you can prove (not "I'm not sure I want" but prove) CCW holders harm more than they help, let's allow the right to keep and bear arms more often than not. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. I'm not against guns. I'm against unqualified people with guns. Do you want to be cut on by a surgeon who 'studied' and took a 8 hr course on surgery but never proved his/her ability? OR Do you want someone who has dedicated their life to their craft, who trains frequently and is mandated to regularly demonstrate their proficiency. My misgivings about guns are not just in whose 2A Rights have been protected, but rather the actual capability of the person shooting the gun. Shooting is a skill. And it requires regular practice. Also needed is the mind-set to make the split-second decisions that lead up to pulling a trigger or NOT pulling it? I will continue to demand any person tasked with using a weapon to protect MY kid in his/her classroom should be AT LEAST as qualified as the teacher in his classroom. And as for the research-I looked a bit, but couldn't find any. You likely won't find any, either. The ATF and DOJ were limited years ago from keeping all KINDS of statistics that the NRA thought were anti-gun. So, your claims are as valid, or INvalid as mine, it seems. You'll be pleased to know the ACA (aka OhBahmaCare) also has a provision that limits how the information gathered by medical authorities treating firearm-related injuries is used. That should make the NRA smile, right? Happy New Year! You bring up a good point on gun safety & training. It should be taught in school as a mandatory subject shouldn't it? |
| 2013-12-31 11:05 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Part of the issue in my opinion is access to firearms. We see kids getting unglued here as well but it rarely escalates to the use of firearms. My friend spent 5 years as an SRO and I saw his files and my take away is the difference in the gun culture up here. |
| 2014-01-01 4:46 AM in reply to: crusevegas |
Champion 14571 the alamo city, Texas | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by jeffnboise Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by jeffnboise I don't recall saying anything about which good guy with a gun is needed. But now that you bring it up, if you wouldn't mind showing where those schools that have allowed CCW for non-cops for at least 10 years that I'm aware of have had any instance of misuse, unlawful use, wrongful shooting, etc by a CCW holder, you might even make me think twice in pushing to allow it. Previously, prior to about 1986, such arguments as yours "I'm not so sure I want..." held some weight because there wasn't any real history or data to go by to decide if the cost outweighed the benefit. Today, "I'm not so sure I want" means the person hasn't really done any research into the topic and nothing more. Quite a few states allow CCW on campus of universities, more than a few allow it on school property of pretty much all levels so there is data on misuse of firearms. Well, there would be if there had been. Sorry, until you can prove (not "I'm not sure I want" but prove) CCW holders harm more than they help, let's allow the right to keep and bear arms more often than not. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. I'm not against guns. I'm against unqualified people with guns. Do you want to be cut on by a surgeon who 'studied' and took a 8 hr course on surgery but never proved his/her ability? OR Do you want someone who has dedicated their life to their craft, who trains frequently and is mandated to regularly demonstrate their proficiency. My misgivings about guns are not just in whose 2A Rights have been protected, but rather the actual capability of the person shooting the gun. Shooting is a skill. And it requires regular practice. Also needed is the mind-set to make the split-second decisions that lead up to pulling a trigger or NOT pulling it? I will continue to demand any person tasked with using a weapon to protect MY kid in his/her classroom should be AT LEAST as qualified as the teacher in his classroom. And as for the research-I looked a bit, but couldn't find any. You likely won't find any, either. The ATF and DOJ were limited years ago from keeping all KINDS of statistics that the NRA thought were anti-gun. So, your claims are as valid, or INvalid as mine, it seems. You'll be pleased to know the ACA (aka OhBahmaCare) also has a provision that limits how the information gathered by medical authorities treating firearm-related injuries is used. That should make the NRA smile, right? Happy New Year! You bring up a good point on gun safety & training. It should be taught in school as a mandatory subject shouldn't it? absolutely not. our school system is severely lacking already, there is no time to take away from actual education. |
| 2014-01-01 9:58 AM in reply to: mehaner |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by mehaner Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by jeffnboise Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by jeffnboise I don't recall saying anything about which good guy with a gun is needed. But now that you bring it up, if you wouldn't mind showing where those schools that have allowed CCW for non-cops for at least 10 years that I'm aware of have had any instance of misuse, unlawful use, wrongful shooting, etc by a CCW holder, you might even make me think twice in pushing to allow it. Previously, prior to about 1986, such arguments as yours "I'm not so sure I want..." held some weight because there wasn't any real history or data to go by to decide if the cost outweighed the benefit. Today, "I'm not so sure I want" means the person hasn't really done any research into the topic and nothing more. Quite a few states allow CCW on campus of universities, more than a few allow it on school property of pretty much all levels so there is data on misuse of firearms. Well, there would be if there had been. Sorry, until you can prove (not "I'm not sure I want" but prove) CCW holders harm more than they help, let's allow the right to keep and bear arms more often than not. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. I'm not against guns. I'm against unqualified people with guns. Do you want to be cut on by a surgeon who 'studied' and took a 8 hr course on surgery but never proved his/her ability? OR Do you want someone who has dedicated their life to their craft, who trains frequently and is mandated to regularly demonstrate their proficiency. My misgivings about guns are not just in whose 2A Rights have been protected, but rather the actual capability of the person shooting the gun. Shooting is a skill. And it requires regular practice. Also needed is the mind-set to make the split-second decisions that lead up to pulling a trigger or NOT pulling it? I will continue to demand any person tasked with using a weapon to protect MY kid in his/her classroom should be AT LEAST as qualified as the teacher in his classroom. And as for the research-I looked a bit, but couldn't find any. You likely won't find any, either. The ATF and DOJ were limited years ago from keeping all KINDS of statistics that the NRA thought were anti-gun. So, your claims are as valid, or INvalid as mine, it seems. You'll be pleased to know the ACA (aka OhBahmaCare) also has a provision that limits how the information gathered by medical authorities treating firearm-related injuries is used. That should make the NRA smile, right? Happy New Year! You bring up a good point on gun safety & training. It should be taught in school as a mandatory subject shouldn't it? absolutely not. our school system is severely lacking already, there is no time to take away from actual education. Every state that I know of has "hunter safety" courses for kids, which are required before a hunting license can be issued. All of my kids have been through the course even though some of them will never have a hunting license......but I have guns, so I took the course with them. It was a fun weekend. |
| 2014-01-01 10:21 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 14571 the alamo city, Texas | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by mehaner Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by jeffnboise Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by jeffnboise I don't recall saying anything about which good guy with a gun is needed. But now that you bring it up, if you wouldn't mind showing where those schools that have allowed CCW for non-cops for at least 10 years that I'm aware of have had any instance of misuse, unlawful use, wrongful shooting, etc by a CCW holder, you might even make me think twice in pushing to allow it. Previously, prior to about 1986, such arguments as yours "I'm not so sure I want..." held some weight because there wasn't any real history or data to go by to decide if the cost outweighed the benefit. Today, "I'm not so sure I want" means the person hasn't really done any research into the topic and nothing more. Quite a few states allow CCW on campus of universities, more than a few allow it on school property of pretty much all levels so there is data on misuse of firearms. Well, there would be if there had been. Sorry, until you can prove (not "I'm not sure I want" but prove) CCW holders harm more than they help, let's allow the right to keep and bear arms more often than not. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. I'm not against guns. I'm against unqualified people with guns. Do you want to be cut on by a surgeon who 'studied' and took a 8 hr course on surgery but never proved his/her ability? OR Do you want someone who has dedicated their life to their craft, who trains frequently and is mandated to regularly demonstrate their proficiency. My misgivings about guns are not just in whose 2A Rights have been protected, but rather the actual capability of the person shooting the gun. Shooting is a skill. And it requires regular practice. Also needed is the mind-set to make the split-second decisions that lead up to pulling a trigger or NOT pulling it? I will continue to demand any person tasked with using a weapon to protect MY kid in his/her classroom should be AT LEAST as qualified as the teacher in his classroom. And as for the research-I looked a bit, but couldn't find any. You likely won't find any, either. The ATF and DOJ were limited years ago from keeping all KINDS of statistics that the NRA thought were anti-gun. So, your claims are as valid, or INvalid as mine, it seems. You'll be pleased to know the ACA (aka OhBahmaCare) also has a provision that limits how the information gathered by medical authorities treating firearm-related injuries is used. That should make the NRA smile, right? Happy New Year! You bring up a good point on gun safety & training. It should be taught in school as a mandatory subject shouldn't it? absolutely not. our school system is severely lacking already, there is no time to take away from actual education. Every state that I know of has "hunter safety" courses for kids, which are required before a hunting license can be issued. All of my kids have been through the course even though some of them will never have a hunting license......but I have guns, so I took the course with them. It was a fun weekend. i actually think that sounds great. i just think it shouldn't come out of their classroom time. or be mandatory for all people. i have no interest in owning a gun and therefore no interest in a firearms safety course. |
| 2014-01-01 11:40 AM in reply to: mehaner |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by mehaner Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by mehaner Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by jeffnboise Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by jeffnboise I don't recall saying anything about which good guy with a gun is needed. But now that you bring it up, if you wouldn't mind showing where those schools that have allowed CCW for non-cops for at least 10 years that I'm aware of have had any instance of misuse, unlawful use, wrongful shooting, etc by a CCW holder, you might even make me think twice in pushing to allow it. Previously, prior to about 1986, such arguments as yours "I'm not so sure I want..." held some weight because there wasn't any real history or data to go by to decide if the cost outweighed the benefit. Today, "I'm not so sure I want" means the person hasn't really done any research into the topic and nothing more. Quite a few states allow CCW on campus of universities, more than a few allow it on school property of pretty much all levels so there is data on misuse of firearms. Well, there would be if there had been. Sorry, until you can prove (not "I'm not sure I want" but prove) CCW holders harm more than they help, let's allow the right to keep and bear arms more often than not. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. I'm not against guns. I'm against unqualified people with guns. Do you want to be cut on by a surgeon who 'studied' and took a 8 hr course on surgery but never proved his/her ability? OR Do you want someone who has dedicated their life to their craft, who trains frequently and is mandated to regularly demonstrate their proficiency. My misgivings about guns are not just in whose 2A Rights have been protected, but rather the actual capability of the person shooting the gun. Shooting is a skill. And it requires regular practice. Also needed is the mind-set to make the split-second decisions that lead up to pulling a trigger or NOT pulling it? I will continue to demand any person tasked with using a weapon to protect MY kid in his/her classroom should be AT LEAST as qualified as the teacher in his classroom. And as for the research-I looked a bit, but couldn't find any. You likely won't find any, either. The ATF and DOJ were limited years ago from keeping all KINDS of statistics that the NRA thought were anti-gun. So, your claims are as valid, or INvalid as mine, it seems. You'll be pleased to know the ACA (aka OhBahmaCare) also has a provision that limits how the information gathered by medical authorities treating firearm-related injuries is used. That should make the NRA smile, right? Happy New Year! You bring up a good point on gun safety & training. It should be taught in school as a mandatory subject shouldn't it? absolutely not. our school system is severely lacking already, there is no time to take away from actual education. Every state that I know of has "hunter safety" courses for kids, which are required before a hunting license can be issued. All of my kids have been through the course even though some of them will never have a hunting license......but I have guns, so I took the course with them. It was a fun weekend. i actually think that sounds great. i just think it shouldn't come out of their classroom time. or be mandatory for all people. i have no interest in owning a gun and therefore no interest in a firearms safety course. Yeah, I don't think it should be taught in school either......although I guess I could see it as an elective in high school.......it's at least as worthy as "foods" or some of the other electives offered at my kid's school. I get the point of no interest if you don't have guns....makes sense to me. But for people who do have guns in the house, no matter how locked up, you really owe it to your kids to get them some safety instruction. |
| 2014-01-02 12:12 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Yet ANOTHER school shooting...and another thread about gun control. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by mehaner Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by mehaner Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by jeffnboise Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by jeffnboise I don't recall saying anything about which good guy with a gun is needed. But now that you bring it up, if you wouldn't mind showing where those schools that have allowed CCW for non-cops for at least 10 years that I'm aware of have had any instance of misuse, unlawful use, wrongful shooting, etc by a CCW holder, you might even make me think twice in pushing to allow it. Previously, prior to about 1986, such arguments as yours "I'm not so sure I want..." held some weight because there wasn't any real history or data to go by to decide if the cost outweighed the benefit. Today, "I'm not so sure I want" means the person hasn't really done any research into the topic and nothing more. Quite a few states allow CCW on campus of universities, more than a few allow it on school property of pretty much all levels so there is data on misuse of firearms. Well, there would be if there had been. Sorry, until you can prove (not "I'm not sure I want" but prove) CCW holders harm more than they help, let's allow the right to keep and bear arms more often than not. Originally posted by DanielG Originally posted by Jackemy1 So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun before doing near as much damage as others. If only someone had suggested that earlier... Originally posted by SGirl Great points, yes, true. It definitely isn't an easy nor quick fix. There are no fixes really, it's an ongoing battle if you will...to keep schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces safe from those who 'snap.' I'm reminded of a guy in PA, who went on a shooting spree in an LA Fitness I think? He shot a few women, then killed himself. ''After the fact,'' people who knew him/worked with him...all said how odd he was, never had a girlfriend, or wife, etc...seemed like a loner. But, that of course isn't enough to suspect someone of going balistic and shooting up a gym. So, yeah. It's hard, indeed. But, I think it is something that over time, could be trickled into the school system... Slow and steady wins the race, so to speak. There is one important fact in this school shooting that prevented it from being the mass carnage it could have been. That fact is that the shooter was not the only one with a gun in that school that day. There was an armed resource officer who cornered the shooter within a couple of minutes of entering the school causing the shooter to give up and take his own life. Yes the violence that did happen was absolutely tragic and unspeakable but there is something wrong with the mindset that gathering our children and then announce to every psychopath with gun free signs that they are defenseless is a good idea. How many more of these do we have to have before we defend our schools? I don't think anyone questions having a Law Enforcement officer in the schools is the right way to go (but who pays for it?). I'm just not so sure I want a "20-something" educator with their newly issued CWP roaming the halls looking for a gunfight. I'm not against guns. I'm against unqualified people with guns. Do you want to be cut on by a surgeon who 'studied' and took a 8 hr course on surgery but never proved his/her ability? OR Do you want someone who has dedicated their life to their craft, who trains frequently and is mandated to regularly demonstrate their proficiency. My misgivings about guns are not just in whose 2A Rights have been protected, but rather the actual capability of the person shooting the gun. Shooting is a skill. And it requires regular practice. Also needed is the mind-set to make the split-second decisions that lead up to pulling a trigger or NOT pulling it? I will continue to demand any person tasked with using a weapon to protect MY kid in his/her classroom should be AT LEAST as qualified as the teacher in his classroom. And as for the research-I looked a bit, but couldn't find any. You likely won't find any, either. The ATF and DOJ were limited years ago from keeping all KINDS of statistics that the NRA thought were anti-gun. So, your claims are as valid, or INvalid as mine, it seems. You'll be pleased to know the ACA (aka OhBahmaCare) also has a provision that limits how the information gathered by medical authorities treating firearm-related injuries is used. That should make the NRA smile, right? Happy New Year! You bring up a good point on gun safety & training. It should be taught in school as a mandatory subject shouldn't it? absolutely not. our school system is severely lacking already, there is no time to take away from actual education. Every state that I know of has "hunter safety" courses for kids, which are required before a hunting license can be issued. All of my kids have been through the course even though some of them will never have a hunting license......but I have guns, so I took the course with them. It was a fun weekend. i actually think that sounds great. i just think it shouldn't come out of their classroom time. or be mandatory for all people. i have no interest in owning a gun and therefore no interest in a firearms safety course. Yeah, I don't think it should be taught in school either......although I guess I could see it as an elective in high school.......it's at least as worthy as "foods" or some of the other electives offered at my kid's school. I get the point of no interest if you don't have guns....makes sense to me. But for people who do have guns in the house, no matter how locked up, you really owe it to your kids to get them some safety instruction. On the pro-mandatory training side, I think getting some people exposure to guns would probably help make them a little less demonized in some communities, but I also don't want it to be mandatory. OTOH, I can think of a number of things that I'd want to make a mandatory part of every kid's education before we got to gun safety (how to swim, how to open a bank account and balance a checkbook, how to write a resume and go on an interview, just to name a few.) |
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