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2013-12-15 10:54 PM

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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Subject: School me on religious arguments please...
So some education jurisdictions in the USA require the teaching of Intelligent Design as the origin of the universe. Some, at least historically, forbid the teaching of evolution. And some believe that evolution only should be taught. That's not what this post is about.

What I am curious about is that I heard in order to satisfy both scientific and religious interests, some states require the teaching of evolution......... as well as discussions into the considerations of "alternate explanations".

To me, this becomes interesting. Instead of simply believing what the teacher says, now children are required to reason critically regarding the validity and shortcomings of both evolution and intelligent design.

What I wish to ask CoJ is, what sort of framework do you foresee intelligent design discussions being centered around? Please, do not interpret this question as, "why would anyone believe in intelligent design?" I am trying to expand my views on life, and since I have been educated in the sciences, I feel I may be predisposed to being partial toward how discovery of ancient hominid characteristics encourages the evolution explanation.

So what axioms, premises, logic styles etc. would one use to consider intelligent design as a potential candidate for the origin of the universe?


2013-12-15 11:12 PM
in reply to: So Fresh So Clean

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

God hates these posts. 

2013-12-16 7:01 AM
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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by Left Brain

God hates these posts. 

Your question is too complicated and my brain hurts.  I am going to pray for you to find a simple way to phrase your question.



Edited by pga_mike 2013-12-16 7:02 AM
2013-12-16 7:09 AM
in reply to: pga_mike

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

I would like to know which jurisdictions require schools to teach intyelligent design. I have never heard of it being a requirement in public schools.

2013-12-16 10:05 AM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by jford2309

I would like to know which jurisdictions require schools to teach intyelligent design. I have never heard of it being a requirement in public schools.

There are some that are attempting to do so but are being shot down in the courts. 

2013-12-16 10:44 AM
in reply to: crowny2

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by crowny2

Originally posted by jford2309

I would like to know which jurisdictions require schools to teach intyelligent design. I have never heard of it being a requirement in public schools.

There are some that are attempting to do so but are being shot down in the courts. 

 

I just realized that I spelled intelligent wrong! whooppssss, that wasn't by design



2013-12-16 11:03 AM
in reply to: So Fresh So Clean


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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
If it’s part of a ‘world religion’ course, I see nothing wrong with students learning about ‘’Intelligent Design,’’ but if it’s designed to compete or run alongside mainstream science/biology, etc…then, no.

It shouldn’t be taught in the public schools, my opinion. The reason being, it will create a slippery slope—where do we draw the line between what religions get more air time than others, should students start probing teachers and asking questions? This is what private religious schools are for, and/or Sunday school, etc. Secular, public schools shouldn’t be ‘’required’’ to teach Intelligent Design. Not to mention, teachers who don’t follow any particular faith, or who are atheists/agnostics, shouldn’t be ‘forced’ to teach religious/theological doctrine to their students, in a secular school setting. This is a can of worms best left to keep the lid on!
2013-12-16 4:17 PM
in reply to: SGirl

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
Originally posted by SGirl

If it’s part of a ‘world religion’ course, I see nothing wrong with students learning about ‘’Intelligent Design,’’ but if it’s designed to compete or run alongside mainstream science/biology, etc…then, no.

It shouldn’t be taught in the public schools, my opinion. The reason being, it will create a slippery slope—where do we draw the line between what religions get more air time than others, should students start probing teachers and asking questions? This is what private religious schools are for, and/or Sunday school, etc. Secular, public schools shouldn’t be ‘’required’’ to teach Intelligent Design. Not to mention, teachers who don’t follow any particular faith, or who are atheists/agnostics, shouldn’t be ‘forced’ to teach religious/theological doctrine to their students, in a secular school setting. This is a can of worms best left to keep the lid on!



X2 To me, there is no credible scientific framework to teach intelligent design. It is simply a ruse to open the door for Christian based creationism.

FYI, I was a Christian creationist for the first 30 years of my life.
2013-12-16 4:57 PM
in reply to: Bodaggit


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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
Originally posted by Bodaggit

Originally posted by SGirl

If it’s part of a ‘world religion’ course, I see nothing wrong with students learning about ‘’Intelligent Design,’’ but if it’s designed to compete or run alongside mainstream science/biology, etc…then, no.

It shouldn’t be taught in the public schools, my opinion. The reason being, it will create a slippery slope—where do we draw the line between what religions get more air time than others, should students start probing teachers and asking questions? This is what private religious schools are for, and/or Sunday school, etc. Secular, public schools shouldn’t be ‘’required’’ to teach Intelligent Design. Not to mention, teachers who don’t follow any particular faith, or who are atheists/agnostics, shouldn’t be ‘forced’ to teach religious/theological doctrine to their students, in a secular school setting. This is a can of worms best left to keep the lid on!



X2 To me, there is no credible scientific framework to teach intelligent design. It is simply a ruse to open the door for Christian based creationism.

FYI, I was a Christian creationist for the first 30 years of my life.


Agree...
(and fyi) >> I used to also be a devout Christian...but, now I hold an Agnostic view. I personally see it from both sides, and even when I was religious, I felt this same way.
2013-12-16 10:04 PM
in reply to: SGirl

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Walk away. 

2013-12-16 10:11 PM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by jford2309

I would like to know which jurisdictions require schools to teach intyelligent design. I have never heard of it being a requirement in public schools.

Not to mention where evolution is forbid.



2013-12-17 7:56 AM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jford2309

I would like to know which jurisdictions require schools to teach intyelligent design. I have never heard of it being a requirement in public schools.

Not to mention where evolution is forbid.

ditto, I'm not aware of anywhere that it's forbidden other than maybe some religious schools.  However, even in most religious schools I'm aware of they teach creationism and evolution in their respective classes.  I believe they teach them as competing theories.

My opinion is ID should not be taught in science because it's not a science topic.  Evolution is the leading scientific theory, so it should be taught in science.  I do think schools should have more religion classes offered as well because there is a lot of good information available in them.  I know in college I had to take a few world religion type classes and they were very good classes.  There's nothing wrong with offering them at the High School level.

2013-12-17 7:39 PM
in reply to: Bodaggit

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
Originally posted by Bodaggit

Originally posted by SGirl

If it’s part of a ‘world religion’ course, I see nothing wrong with students learning about ‘’Intelligent Design,’’ but if it’s designed to compete or run alongside mainstream science/biology, etc…then, no.

It shouldn’t be taught in the public schools, my opinion. The reason being, it will create a slippery slope—where do we draw the line between what religions get more air time than others, should students start probing teachers and asking questions? This is what private religious schools are for, and/or Sunday school, etc. Secular, public schools shouldn’t be ‘’required’’ to teach Intelligent Design. Not to mention, teachers who don’t follow any particular faith, or who are atheists/agnostics, shouldn’t be ‘forced’ to teach religious/theological doctrine to their students, in a secular school setting. This is a can of worms best left to keep the lid on!



X2 To me, there is no credible scientific framework to teach intelligent design. It is simply a ruse to open the door for Christian based creationism.

FYI, I was a Christian creationist for the first 30 years of my life.


x3. A while back, there were some "intelligent design" books that were word for word, exactly the same as creationist propaganda...only difference? They changed the word creationism to intelligent design.
"intelligent design" has no place in a science classroom...it is best left to "religious theory" or "philosophy" classes in private religious schools.
2013-12-20 9:06 PM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
Texas, I think, may be one state where the duality is proposed.

But I am not asking whether ID should be taught in schools.

And I agree, there is no scientific framework behind intelligent design. I am asking, what framework would you propose to continue a discussion on intelligent design.
2013-12-20 10:50 PM
in reply to: So Fresh So Clean

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
To me I have no problem with religious after school programs as long as they are no disruptive with the school. If they want to discuss ID or any other topic like that I have no problems with it. It could even be apart of a after school science club if they wanted it. If they did it as part of a science club I would hope they would give a religious disclaimer. I think my bio class in high school that talk evolution had that. I do think we talked about a creationism a bit too.

What I am curious is there another idea other than the other 2? Before evoluation what did they teach?
2013-12-21 12:08 AM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
I found part of my answer thanks to Steven Hawkin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality


2013-12-21 8:00 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jford2309

I would like to know which jurisdictions require schools to teach intyelligent design. I have never heard of it being a requirement in public schools.

Not to mention where evolution is forbid.

ditto, I'm not aware of anywhere that it's forbidden other than maybe some religious schools.  However, even in most religious schools I'm aware of they teach creationism and evolution in their respective classes.  I believe they teach them as competing theories.

My opinion is ID should not be taught in science because it's not a science topic.  Evolution is the leading scientific theory, so it should be taught in science.  I do think schools should have more religion classes offered as well because there is a lot of good information available in them.  I know in college I had to take a few world religion type classes and they were very good classes.  There's nothing wrong with offering them at the High School level.

One of our local school districts was involved in a law suit over this issue that received national news attention several years ago:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

My personal feelings are that if religious groups want creationism and their other beliefs taught in public schools, there is nothing wrong with offering theology classes that discuss multiple religions.  I'm opposed to school administrators or teachers only providing religious education based on their personal faith.  The science classroom is no place to be discussing faith based beliefs, and should be reserved for fact based education.

 

2013-12-23 9:10 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jford2309

I would like to know which jurisdictions require schools to teach intyelligent design. I have never heard of it being a requirement in public schools.

Not to mention where evolution is forbid.

ditto, I'm not aware of anywhere that it's forbidden other than maybe some religious schools.  However, even in most religious schools I'm aware of they teach creationism and evolution in their respective classes.  I believe they teach them as competing theories.

My opinion is ID should not be taught in science because it's not a science topic.  Evolution is the leading scientific theory, so it should be taught in science.  I do think schools should have more religion classes offered as well because there is a lot of good information available in them.  I know in college I had to take a few world religion type classes and they were very good classes.  There's nothing wrong with offering them at the High School level.

One of our local school districts was involved in a law suit over this issue that received national news attention several years ago:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

My personal feelings are that if religious groups want creationism and their other beliefs taught in public schools, there is nothing wrong with offering theology classes that discuss multiple religions.  I'm opposed to school administrators or teachers only providing religious education based on their personal faith.  The science classroom is no place to be discussing faith based beliefs, and should be reserved for fact based education.

 



I agree with you, but what's funny is various peoples interpretations of what is "fact".  Many people who believe in creation (or ID) believe it as "fact", but it's just not a scientifically provable fact.

Different topic, but I personally have a lot of scientific issues with AGW, but it's still taught as "fact" in schools.  I feel that's one that is scientifically provable, yet due to political pressure it's pushed as fact.

I'm not suggesting ID be taught as fact in a science class because as I mentioned it's an un-provable theory that belongs in a religious type class and not a science class.

2013-12-23 9:39 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jford2309

I would like to know which jurisdictions require schools to teach intyelligent design. I have never heard of it being a requirement in public schools.

Not to mention where evolution is forbid.

ditto, I'm not aware of anywhere that it's forbidden other than maybe some religious schools.  However, even in most religious schools I'm aware of they teach creationism and evolution in their respective classes.  I believe they teach them as competing theories.

My opinion is ID should not be taught in science because it's not a science topic.  Evolution is the leading scientific theory, so it should be taught in science.  I do think schools should have more religion classes offered as well because there is a lot of good information available in them.  I know in college I had to take a few world religion type classes and they were very good classes.  There's nothing wrong with offering them at the High School level.

One of our local school districts was involved in a law suit over this issue that received national news attention several years ago:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

My personal feelings are that if religious groups want creationism and their other beliefs taught in public schools, there is nothing wrong with offering theology classes that discuss multiple religions.  I'm opposed to school administrators or teachers only providing religious education based on their personal faith.  The science classroom is no place to be discussing faith based beliefs, and should be reserved for fact based education.

 



I agree with you, but what's funny is various peoples interpretations of what is "fact".  Many people who believe in creation (or ID) believe it as "fact", but it's just not a scientifically provable fact.

Different topic, but I personally have a lot of scientific issues with AGW, but it's still taught as "fact" in schools.  I feel that's one that is scientifically provable, yet due to political pressure it's pushed as fact.

I'm not suggesting ID be taught as fact in a science class because as I mentioned it's an un-provable theory that belongs in a religious type class and not a science class.

Actually, neither are taught as facts.  They are taught as theory.  Specifically scientific theory.  I know you put them in quotes, but it still does not represent what is true as it relates to the debate.  Now, there are scientific facts that support the various theories.  And you are 100% correct that ID cannot be tested and/or proven from a scientific theory and inquiry perspective.  But neither are truly facts.  And I know you know the difference between the two, but others that are joining in this discussion might not. 

From one scientist to another. 

2013-12-23 9:52 AM
in reply to: crowny2

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by crowny2

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jford2309

I would like to know which jurisdictions require schools to teach intyelligent design. I have never heard of it being a requirement in public schools.

Not to mention where evolution is forbid.

ditto, I'm not aware of anywhere that it's forbidden other than maybe some religious schools.  However, even in most religious schools I'm aware of they teach creationism and evolution in their respective classes.  I believe they teach them as competing theories.

My opinion is ID should not be taught in science because it's not a science topic.  Evolution is the leading scientific theory, so it should be taught in science.  I do think schools should have more religion classes offered as well because there is a lot of good information available in them.  I know in college I had to take a few world religion type classes and they were very good classes.  There's nothing wrong with offering them at the High School level.

One of our local school districts was involved in a law suit over this issue that received national news attention several years ago:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

My personal feelings are that if religious groups want creationism and their other beliefs taught in public schools, there is nothing wrong with offering theology classes that discuss multiple religions.  I'm opposed to school administrators or teachers only providing religious education based on their personal faith.  The science classroom is no place to be discussing faith based beliefs, and should be reserved for fact based education.

 



I agree with you, but what's funny is various peoples interpretations of what is "fact".  Many people who believe in creation (or ID) believe it as "fact", but it's just not a scientifically provable fact.

Different topic, but I personally have a lot of scientific issues with AGW, but it's still taught as "fact" in schools.  I feel that's one that is scientifically provable, yet due to political pressure it's pushed as fact.

I'm not suggesting ID be taught as fact in a science class because as I mentioned it's an un-provable theory that belongs in a religious type class and not a science class.

Actually, neither are taught as facts.  They are taught as theory.  Specifically scientific theory.  I know you put them in quotes, but it still does not represent what is true as it relates to the debate.  Now, there are scientific facts that support the various theories.  And you are 100% correct that ID cannot be tested and/or proven from a scientific theory and inquiry perspective.  But neither are truly facts.  And I know you know the difference between the two, but others that are joining in this discussion might not. 

From one scientist to another. 

lol, thanks.  

yeah the "fact" portion of AGW I was referring to was how much of the non scientific alarmism that gets taught in the schools.  I have one son in College, and two in High School and it's alarming how much of the non scientific propaganda gets fed to them.  In a bit of irony, it makes me see the other side of the creationism type discussion because I can see how someone who does not believe in creationism would react to creation "propaganda" being taught to their kids by teachers.

2013-12-23 2:29 PM
in reply to: So Fresh So Clean

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
My other question would revolve around the teachers. I don't think most universities teach ID as part of their biology curriculum. How would districts know if a boilogy teacher was trained to sufficiently teach ID?


2013-12-23 2:43 PM
in reply to: jlruhnke

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...

Originally posted by jlruhnke My other question would revolve around the teachers. I don't think most universities teach ID as part of their biology curriculum. How would districts know if a boilogy teacher was trained to sufficiently teach ID?

The training is actually pretty short, yeah?....."a supreme being created the universe" ..... the end. 

2013-12-23 2:46 PM
in reply to: jlruhnke

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
Originally posted by jlruhnke

My other question would revolve around the teachers. I don't think most universities teach ID as part of their biology curriculum. How would districts know if a boilogy teacher was trained to sufficiently teach ID?


from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design_movement#Higher_edu...

Two universities have offered courses in intelligent design: Oklahoma Baptist University, where ID advocate Michael Newton Keas taught 'Unified Studies: Introduction to Biology', and Biola University, host of the Mere Creation conference.[110] Additionally, numerous Christian evangelical institutions have faculty with interests in intelligent design. These include Oral Roberts University[111] and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.[112] Patrick Henry University teaches creationism but also exposes its students to both Darwinian evolution and intelligent design

2013-12-23 2:49 PM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
I can understand some Christians being against evolution because somehow that destories there faith but I really never understood what they are against the big bang.
2013-12-23 3:02 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: School me on religious arguments please...
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jlruhnke My other question would revolve around the teachers. I don't think most universities teach ID as part of their biology curriculum. How would districts know if a boilogy teacher was trained to sufficiently teach ID?

The training is actually pretty short, yeah?....."a supreme being created the universe" ..... the end. 




Yep, right up there with "it started with a bang".
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