swim kick (Page 4)

Yep, his hips are massively developed and there is no way you'd ever convince him, or me, that it hasn't helped his bike and run.  He moves very easily from swim focus to bike or run focus, even after months off the bike in the winter. Whether it's XC season, track season, or triathlon season, he never stops swimming, and kicking probably makes up 20-30% of the yearly 1,000,000+ yards he swims.  It's easy on his body, and has built a tremendous core for him.

I don't know if I'm more impressed or depressed.... Definitely both....

Your kick times are significantly faster than my freestyle for 100yards...

In all seriousness I know I have a long way to go so I'm not comparing myself but it does show how much work I have ahead of me...

His kick times are faster than 90% of the people on BT will EVER swim their 100 free.  The same goes for LB's son.  It's good to look at what people like that are doing in their training.  But it's important to recognize the substantial differences before considering how to apply that to the more 'typical AGer' training.  'Immitation' does not always equal 'replication'.

This makes sense... I definitely want to get faster but my short term goals are to correct technique flaws, increase my comfort level for the longer set distances and be more confident in the open water "wash machine" during races.. 

Hitting ~ 1:40-1:45/100yd is my time goal for the free so those kick times took some of my resolve away initially...

There is obviously something to be said for that.  In my kid's case, he started swimming when he was almost 14, and he couldn't kick.  He was like many of us, and practically went backwards when he kicked.  What he had was a really good run (he's a gifted runner and went under 20:00 the first time he tried a 5K as a 13 year old, never having ran the distance before), and an adequate bike, as much as one can be adequate at 13.  After having some limited success that first year when he entered a triathlon, he wanted to see if he could compete at the upper youth levels.  He got his arse absolutely handed to him in the swim and was, therefore, never really in the race.  He wanted to join a swim club to improve his swim.....because he fell in love with triathlon.  I set him up with the best club and coaching I could find.....and from the day he started, all he heard from the deck was "KICK!! KICK!! KICK!!".....and he hated it.  He was swimming a 100 in about 1:35 or so back then (as back then as 3 years ago can be) and was in a group on his club team that consisted of kids 2 and 3 years younger than him.....and he hated that more.  So he never missed a practice (6-8 sessions per week).....and he gradually learned to swim, but he REALLY learned to kick.  Yeah, he can do 100 SCY kick sets on 1:20 all day long now...and he easily hits the wall in 1:05.....and remarkably, he brought his 100 time down to :51.  At 15 1/2 he did his first OLY triathlon and easily won the swim in 18:XX.....he's faster today but doesn't do OLY triathlons.  What he has done is bring himself from a BOP swimmer in the Youth/Jr. Elite series to a BOFOP swimmer.  He still misses the first pack, barely, but next season that looks to be over.  He is nowhere near the usual child swimmer who starts when they are 7-9 years old.  He was already 6' tall when he joined his swim club.  What he did have was a desire and drive to compete with the top kids in his AG......today he is ranked #1 for his AG (USAT rankings) and in the top 10 in the elite series.  It was a ton of work on his part.....and the majority of it spent in the pool....and easily 2-300,000 yards per year on kick sets.

It doesn't do much good to argue against the idea that adult onset AG'ers don't have that kind of time to put in to swimming. I understand the argument.  But what is more correct, from what I see, is that most adult onset AG'ers don't put in the time to get fast in the swim, and they are constantly told that it's really not time well spent anyway since there are easier and bigger gains to be made in the bike and run.  Maybe.... most won't ever try to find out.  They are also told that there is no crossover benefit from large volume of swim work.  Maybe. In his case he didn't increase his run or bike volume (he did train differently than he had been training with lots of intervals added....short work, high intensity) and he also has the benefit of some genetics that allow many in his extended family to run fast......but, during his intense swim focus his mile time dropped  from 5:03 to 4:18.  His 5K from 18:XX to 15:40.  HIs FTP is north of 4.5 w/kg on the bike..  Correlation does not equal causation?  Maybe....but a look at his TP account shows 60% of his 14-20 hour avg. training week over the last 3 years is swimming.

He was a beginner AG triathlete in every sense of the word.

What your son is doing makes perfect sense given his willingness and ability to put in the work and his goals.  I have always been of the belief that too many triathletes neglect the swim--even those with significant time constraints and much less lofty goals than your son's.  How much time should they put into the swim?  It depends.  How much should they kick?  It depends.  What I can say, is that very few of them are in a position to use the specific approach your son has used/is using even if there are some lessons they can learn by seeing how athletes with those kinds of goals train.

I think that everyone can improve their swim time.....and quite a few people can improve their times dramatically.  The problem I see is that most triathlon coaches really don't have a clue how to train a person to be a "swimmer".  Hell, most triathlon coaches can't swim worth a crap themselves.  And I'll go a step further and say that most people who do triathlon don't have a single idea what fast swimming, and learning to swim fast, feels like.  It's hard work.....much of it done in an aerobic zone most people can't fathom.  If you want to learn to swim fast, you have to find a SWIM COACH who can teach you how to do the things you need to do to be faster.  The problem with that is the fact that there really aren't many swim coaches available outside of youth club swimming that are worth a damn.....and as adults, we aren't getting on a swim club any time soon, so we are left with the 2-3000 yard 3 times a week workout that gets you to the point where you can finish the swim. Obviously, that's fine if that's your goal, but if your goal is to be faster, it won't work.  As far as crossover benefits from REALLY doing a swim program.....people who can't swim (most of us) just can't comment on that....because they've never actually swim trained at that level. There is a reason triathlon development coaches look at swim clubs and college swimmers for future stars in the sport.  They will look at runners too, but if you had no swim background as a kid there is no interest.

If you (the collective you) think you are training properly to swim faster, find a good local swim club and go watch them practice a few times.  Your eyes will be opened wide.  If you're lucky, you'll go watch a club that has 2-4 different level of swimmers working out.....from age group 10-12 up through national prep and national level groups.  It will be worth your time to get an idea of what swim training looks like.

I agree.

I doubt you have much basis to say "most triathlon coaches" and, speaking for myself FWIW, I can fathom hard work.  Almost any decent advice I have seen, here and elsewhere, will tell the 'typical Ag triathlete' that they should be doing most swimming in sets with the effort level above 'race pace', ie, intensity is espoused.  As far as crossover benefits, anyone can comment on that.  Of course they exist.  Any time you build a big engine, you can use that engine in multiple ways--though you may need some specific 'body work' to get the most out of that engine.  An engine built biking or running can be used in swimming, but that 'body work' is so important that it can take a long time to make real use of the engine.  Taking an engine built swimming and doing the body work for biking or running is much easier (not that the work is 'easy', but the process is very straight-forward and doesn't require much technical coaching).  That's still not necessarily the same as saying someone should just swim more because it will help their running.

I have a reasonable understanding how swimmers (and a variety of other single-sport athletes) train.  The collective 'us' simply don't have the time that we are able/willing to commit to train like those swim clubs.  So we have to take what they do and decide how to apply it to what we are able/willing to do. 

I don't think I disagree with many of the ideas you have about swimming for triathletes (most of it is not very controversial).  But your 'advice' often seems to lack a recognition about different constraints and goals, which can have a meaningful impact on how one would implement the principles being employed in your son's training into somebody else's who is not in a similar position.  I maintain it is those principles which are important to recognize and work with--not the 'prescription' of a specific athlete's training program.  That's all.

I'm not trying to argue your points.    But I will argue one with you....after almost 30 years around the sport I have a pretty good idea of the swim knowledge of your avg. triathlon coach....and it sucks.

As for the last part, there are fast people on this board, and more then a few of them have had their eyes opened regarding learning to swim fast, and what a faster swim can mean to their race,  I'm not talking about you, you are probably about as fast as you are going to get, and I'm quite sure you understand most of the principles.

I don't lack perspective on what my kid does vs. what others can do, or how he trains vs. someone else....obviously a lot of us can't do it......but I also recognize that there certainly are beginner triathletes who can, and a different model then what is usually presented here doesn't hurt them, even if it may be down the road before they are interested in seeing just how fast they can be.

My problem is the information that is presented as "this is the way".......nah, not always, and not for everyone.....ESPECIALLY when it comes to swimming and the benefits it can provide.

I was told that my son started to late to ever be able to compete at an elite level .....by a number of coaches.  I'm glad I decided to keep looking and didn't tell him.

Nah, by the time I saw the difference between a triathlon coach and an actual swim club coach my day had come and gone and my times weren't important to me at all.  But I am able to watch the difference in knowledge passed on to my kids....and it's dramatic.  Besides, like I said, the really good swim coaches are too busy with club teams to spend much time with adults, especially those looking for an easy fix instead of really hard work.

The best triathlon development coaches I know stay out of the swimming aspect and advise their charges to join a club.  The smart ones take the advice.

I hope I'm not as fast as I'm going to get.  But I do realize that my constraints (many self-imposed) do limit how fast I will get.  That works in all 3 sports.  Because the principles involved in endurance sports don't vary that much.  The complications all come when you take a specific individual and try to plot a path to take them where they want to go while managing a host of different constraints (some forced upon them, others self-selected).  The fewer constraints, the easier coaching becomes.

And of course I agree that there are some beginner triathletes that can more closely follow the kind of path your son is on.  Obviously, being young would help but even a few 'oldsters' can follow significant aspects of it.  Especially if they are really content to keep their big goals 'down the road' and be very patient with the process.  Although, I've been around the sport enough to know that those are the minority.

Most of us fall into "this is the way" when we post to some extent (myself, certainly included).  Because usually we don't want spend the time on a detailed explanation and all the caveats that might go along with what we post as if it's intended to apply to all athletes, in all situations.  Usually, people assume the fat of the bell curve unless directed to specifically assume otherwise (like when you ask a question related to your kid).  As bets go, that's one I'll take most of the time.

Agree with most all of your points, but especially this one. I am constantly shocked at how little a tri coach knows about swimming. The unfortunate part is that it's being taught like this. When I did my USAT coach certification, what the swim "expert" taught everyone in the room absolute garbage. I was embarrassed it was so bad. But most in the room knew even less than the teacher, so they soaked it up and took it home with them.

Thanks! You know, I had a handful of pretty cool moment's in racing (one included the crew of "Baywatch"), but rarely if ever do they get caught on camera. Good times.

The coach laughed when we showed up and he asked my son what his swim background was..  I have no doubt you are right and they figured he would quit. (yes, they put him with 11-12 year olds)  He could not do any of the other 4 strokes in addition to coming in last in every meet he was entered in. Today he is on their National Squad with Sectional cuts in the distance freestlye events.  He still struggles with the other strokes compared to other swimmers, but he can go 100fly in under a minute....basically he has A times in the other strokes and AA-AAAA in freestyle.  He's really not wired to hear "no", or "you can't"......I guess that's not surprising, huh?

I agree with you completely on this point.  I would also add that "spending the time" is also on the reader to read and think through the points made by posters before responding in dissent.  

I try to be cognizant of this all the time because for an example, even though I know LB likes to stir the pot with his response style and will never miss an opportunity to brag on his kid, he does provide good thinking points.... If I merely skim his response without reading to comprehend, I may miss the fact he may toss in a conciliatory response (it's possible) or clarify a previous point that I would otherwise miss if I just chalked it up to LB being LB...  

As for message boards and the inherent risk for argument, I can't help but remember something my dad always said about communication in written form.  That being, it should be like a woman's skirt, long enough to cover the subject but short enough to be interesting.  

So even if you did spend time to cover every caveat, much of what you say might get missed anyway as disputes to your post are being busily typed...

I'm just glad there are so many viewpoints on this site so I can see the different perspectives. 

You know, it's really not bragging as much as it seems....although I get it.  The fact is, my eyes have been opened up WIDE in the last 3 years of being around elite triathletes.....not just Jr. Elite triathletes, but Elite triathletes of every level.  I get to spend time and talk to the father of the #1 ranked open water female swimmer in the world.  I get to sit and talk to athletes who are world champions, been to the olympics, trained world champions, etc.....the list is endless since my son has been accepted into those types of programs.  It's amazing the amount of work that has went into their successes......it's also facinating to listen to their stories about coaching, training, etc. 

Look, I'm proud of my son.......but I'm more of a fan.  I don't do the work. I don't train him. In order for me to pass on what I've seen from his training I have to use his times and methods......I know it's not useful to everyone, but I also know that some of it is, and I know from the PM's I get that some people want to know more about how he trained to get to the level he is at his age. He is an AG'er, yeah?  How he got to the top of his AG is information that some poeple are nterested in.

It really doesn't matter how I post the information, some people will get their feathers ruffled......well, I just hope I have never given the impression that I care one bit about that....because I don't worry at all about it.