Latex tubes.....school me
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2014-03-18 7:54 PM |
Pro 15655 | Subject: Latex tubes.....school me Any benefit at all in a sprint race? How about Oly? I've been hesitant because they just seem like they'd flat easier. Is that true? Thanks |
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2014-03-18 8:15 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by Left Brain Any benefit at all in a sprint race? How about Oly? I've been hesitant because they just seem like they'd flat easier. Is that true? Thanks Times don't add up too much in a sprint, though if you are fighting for seconds in the overall placing it could be important. But I have also been told they really do not make too much of a time difference overall, no data was shown so I'm a bit skeptical on that. If you have solid tires flatting isn't much of a problem. That all said always have a butyl tire as your spare, latex as a spare is just a recipe for disaster. |
2014-03-18 8:21 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by Left Brain Times don't add up too much in a sprint, though if you are fighting for seconds in the overall placing it could be important. But I have also been told they really do not make too much of a time difference overall, no data was shown so I'm a bit skeptical on that. If you have solid tires flatting isn't much of a problem. That all said always have a butyl tire as your spare, latex as a spare is just a recipe for disaster. Any benefit at all in a sprint race? How about Oly? I've been hesitant because they just seem like they'd flat easier. Is that true? Thanks Well, that's the deal for me. If there is a flat in a sprint the race is over.......it's not a matter of finishing..... not happening, it'll be a walk off. For me seconds is no matter, but not for my kids in their races....so are there seconds to be gained? And if so, is a flat so much more common that it would negate any possible small gain? Is there any concrete data on speed gain? Edited by Left Brain 2014-03-18 8:23 PM |
2014-03-18 9:34 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
10 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me The savings from latex tubes varies by tire but data suggests for some tires it is roughly 3 watts per wheel. This has a few comparison numbers: http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf The GP 4000s is supposedly about 3 Watts per wheel as well. You can use something like bikecalculator.com to see what 6W might save you in a sprint or Olympic but probably 15-30s. The flatting question is probably harder to answer. The consensus seems to be that Latex tubes are more prone to installation error flats. Things like bits of tube stuck between tire and rim, or bad rim strips. If you get the installation correct most people claim to actually get less flats. They don't seem to suffer from pinch flats as easy as a butyl. If a nail or glass makes it through your tire you are probably getting a flat either way. Slowtwitch ran a recent test comparing tire sealants and their results showed that latex tubes seem to work better with tire sealants. So best bet against flats may be a latex tube with some sealant. The other con to latex tubes is that they simply lose air faster, so you'll have to inflate your tires before every ride. Personally I think you should be doing that anyway. Oh, CO2 makes this even worse, combined with the installation issues means you should carry a butyl for a spare. |
2014-03-18 9:36 PM in reply to: sbohrer |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by sbohrer The savings from latex tubes varies by tire but data suggests for some tires it is roughly 3 watts per wheel. This has a few comparison numbers: http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf The GP 4000s is supposedly about 3 Watts per wheel as well. You can use something like bikecalculator.com to see what 6W might save you in a sprint or Olympic but probably 15-30s. The flatting question is probably harder to answer. The consensus seems to be that Latex tubes are more prone to installation error flats. Things like bits of tube stuck between tire and rim, or bad rim strips. If you get the installation correct most people claim to actually get less flats. They don't seem to suffer from pinch flats as easy as a butyl. If a nail or glass makes it through your tire you are probably getting a flat either way. Slowtwitch ran a recent test comparing tire sealants and their results showed that latex tubes seem to work better with tire sealants. So best bet against flats may be a latex tube with some sealant. The other con to latex tubes is that they simply lose air faster, so you'll have to inflate your tires before every ride. Personally I think you should be doing that anyway. Oh, CO2 makes this even worse, combined with the installation issues means you should carry a butyl for a spare. How do you do that? (bolded part) |
2014-03-18 9:50 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
10 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Normally you need a latex tube with a removable vale core, which I think most have. You unscrew the valve core and squirt about 2oz of selant then put the core back in and inflate. Here is slowtwitch's sealant test which may help you decide which sealant you may want to try. |
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2014-03-18 10:32 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me LB, here is the deal on latex tubes. Better ride, 3 watts savings per wheel. They are NOT more likely to flat if installed properly. However, you must be a bit more careful that the latex does not get caught under the bead during inflation. Additionally, they lose air more quickly; as in, you will have to pump the tires every day. Not a huge deal, but perhaps something to remember if you have to rack your bike the day before. Biggest thing is if you let it deflate too much, maybe don't inflate for a week, you must be very careful again when you re-inflate to make sure the latex has not slipped under the bead. The latex likes to be sneaky. For "that guy" i would say its a no brainer to do it. You're probably saving him 2% of effort or gaining 2% of speed, who cares what the race distance is, that is certainly significant. As long as you are careful and pre-ride on the tubes before your race (that morning and the week of) there should be no problems. As far as sealant, that will probably make the tubes worse than the butyl you were using. Sealant ruins rolling resistance and doesn't get you anything. A big puncture or blowout will not be helped by sealant.
On second thought, please give your son extra thick butyl tubes, lots of sealant, and gatorskins. I could use the extra 40 seconds. ETA: I doubt he is carrying a spare in races, but for training rides definitely use a butyl. Edited by dmiller5 2014-03-18 10:34 PM |
2014-03-18 11:28 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by dmiller5 LB, here is the deal on latex tubes. Better ride, 3 watts savings per wheel. They are NOT more likely to flat if installed properly. However, you must be a bit more careful that the latex does not get caught under the bead during inflation. Additionally, they lose air more quickly; as in, you will have to pump the tires every day. Not a huge deal, but perhaps something to remember if you have to rack your bike the day before. Biggest thing is if you let it deflate too much, maybe don't inflate for a week, you must be very careful again when you re-inflate to make sure the latex has not slipped under the bead. The latex likes to be sneaky. For "that guy" i would say its a no brainer to do it. You're probably saving him 2% of effort or gaining 2% of speed, who cares what the race distance is, that is certainly significant. As long as you are careful and pre-ride on the tubes before your race (that morning and the week of) there should be no problems. As far as sealant, that will probably make the tubes worse than the butyl you were using. Sealant ruins rolling resistance and doesn't get you anything. A big puncture or blowout will not be helped by sealant.
On second thought, please give your son extra thick butyl tubes, lots of sealant, and gatorskins. I could use the extra 40 seconds. ETA: I doubt he is carrying a spare in races, but for training rides definitely use a butyl. great post and you mention most of the imporant aspect -they are harder to install...more delicate (you need to use baby powder..important -once install, they arent anymore prone to flat than butyl -better ride, BETTER CORNERING -faster..less watts -a no brainer for me in races.... but make sure your emergenxy spare is a butyl...you dont want to try to install a latex tube when rush or on the side of the road...or with co2 canister... the only negative is the price and pain to install.... but for those that care about the extra watts...it s worthy! |
2014-03-19 2:11 AM in reply to: jonnyo |
Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by jonnyo Originally posted by dmiller5 great post and you mention most of the imporant aspect -they are harder to install...more delicate (you need to use baby powder..important -once install, they arent anymore prone to flat than butyl -better ride, BETTER CORNERING -faster..less watts -a no brainer for me in races.... but make sure your emergenxy spare is a butyl...you dont want to try to install a latex tube when rush or on the side of the road...or with co2 canister... the only negative is the price and pain to install.... but for those that care about the extra watts...it s worthy! LB, here is the deal on latex tubes. Better ride, 3 watts savings per wheel. They are NOT more likely to flat if installed properly. However, you must be a bit more careful that the latex does not get caught under the bead during inflation. Additionally, they lose air more quickly; as in, you will have to pump the tires every day. Not a huge deal, but perhaps something to remember if you have to rack your bike the day before. Biggest thing is if you let it deflate too much, maybe don't inflate for a week, you must be very careful again when you re-inflate to make sure the latex has not slipped under the bead. The latex likes to be sneaky. For "that guy" i would say its a no brainer to do it. You're probably saving him 2% of effort or gaining 2% of speed, who cares what the race distance is, that is certainly significant. As long as you are careful and pre-ride on the tubes before your race (that morning and the week of) there should be no problems. As far as sealant, that will probably make the tubes worse than the butyl you were using. Sealant ruins rolling resistance and doesn't get you anything. A big puncture or blowout will not be helped by sealant.
On second thought, please give your son extra thick butyl tubes, lots of sealant, and gatorskins. I could use the extra 40 seconds. ETA: I doubt he is carrying a spare in races, but for training rides definitely use a butyl. x3...sums it up pretty well. Leave the latex tubes in the race wheels and only use them for races. Constantly changing from latex and butyl increases the chances for installation errors. Also, keep in mind that tubes and tires work together. A latex tube in a crappy tire won't make a difference because the tire won't be supple enough to take advantage of latex's supple properties as well. Sort of like buying a really soft down pillow and using a cardboard box as a pillow case. |
2014-03-19 7:08 AM in reply to: Jason N |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Yeah install can be a bit more involved to ensure the tube gets seated properly and not pinched, learned that the 1st time I installed one! Read Tom Anhalt's blog (http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/), he has data on some of the latest tires being produced with expected road wattage saving at 30, 40 and 50 kph. GP4000s w/latex had ~5W saved at 30kph and ~8 at 40kph. With 5W worth ~1 sec per mile it can be worth it regardless of ability given any time saved at the finishline is the goal for most racers. I've been using latex in my tubes for a couple years now, I got lazy and have left them in as I race and train the same wheels (Felt TTR2). Have not had a flat in them since I've been using them, barely! I say barely as if you or your son will be using them make sure you replace the rim tape with some real good rim tape. My wheels had some good cloth tape and during my last sprint race all was well until I came back to transition after the race and found I had a flat, and thought "phew that was close". I checked out the puncture and it was not due to anything in the tire but the tube found its way through a weakness in the cloth tape over a spoke hole, it eventually went through and popped. The hole in the tape was tiny, like 1/32 tiny. |
2014-03-19 7:20 AM in reply to: Donto |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Exposed spoke holes is the only thing that have ever caused me a problem with latex tubes. I've never flatted with them while riding but have flatted plenty with butyl. When I had the spoke hole issue, the tube blew while I was inflating it. It's a sickening sound hearing $15 go *POP*! |
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2014-03-19 10:32 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Member 169 Long Island, NY | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me I have blew up many Latex tubes on install. They key for me is to inflate the tube lightly and then work it into the tire. Check the edges of the tire and rim after tire is on for tube pinch, Inflate. Every time I inflate the tire its like a Jack in the Box. I'm waiting for the explosion. So Far, So Good with this method |
2014-03-19 10:37 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by axteraa Exposed spoke holes is the only thing that have ever caused me a problem with latex tubes. I've never flatted with them while riding but have flatted plenty with butyl. When I had the spoke hole issue, the tube blew while I was inflating it. It's a sickening sound hearing $15 go *POP*! And I've only had 1 latex tube flat. That one was due to a staple working its way in. A butyl most definitely would not have survived because the spare I used did not make it either. (oops) Anything I would have said on care in installation being about the only difference towards this has already been said in earlier posts. |
2014-03-19 11:09 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Member 388 Miami | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me I used to train and race with butyl and switch to latex. I didn't see an increase in flats since then, but I "feel" (I don't have data to prove it) that they help me go faster. As many people mentioned, they lose air rather quickly. You will need to inflate them before every ride, which is something that I used to do with butyl anyways. |
2014-03-19 11:44 AM in reply to: davidfedez |
Expert 3126 Boise, ID | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me
Can I get some more opinions on the "feel and handling" aspect? It surprises me that the tube could really make much difference in the feel and handling, would think the tire does most of that. Is it really enough to feel a difference? If the latex tube is more supple does that mean you have to run a higher pressure in the tire? Would seem if the tube is more supple, the same pressure would give you more slack in the tire and this increase rolling resistance. So do you have to go 120psi in a latex where you would normally go 110psi in a butyl? |
2014-03-19 11:52 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Member 285 | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me I train and race on the same wheels (PT) and it's not worth it for me. I'm not paying $15 a tube and then baby-powdering it on install, and switching back and forth for racing. That's wayyyyy too much effort for 2 Watts/wheel. Someone posted 2% times savings....which would imply ~1:00 on a sprint which seems like a very bold statement. For all the time and hassle they are, I'd rather be sitting on my trainer and earning those extra watts. and if we're really splitting hairs...why not just run tubulars? does anyone REALLY repair a flat in a sprint anyway? |
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2014-03-19 11:56 AM in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I train and race on the same wheels (PT) and it's not worth it for me. I'm not paying $15 a tube and then baby-powdering it on install, and switching back and forth for racing. That's wayyyyy too much effort for 2 Watts/wheel. Someone posted 2% times savings....which would imply ~1:00 on a sprint which seems like a very bold statement. For all the time and hassle they are, I'd rather be sitting on my trainer and earning those extra watts. and if we're really splitting hairs...why not just run tubulars? does anyone REALLY repair a flat in a sprint anyway? If you assume 300 watts average power, which I believe LB's son is close to, 3 watts per wheel, 6 watts total, is 2% of the total power. Running tubulars would require him to get new wheels. And you spend how much time running and cycling and swimming to gain a few seconds in a race? Taking a few minutes to put in tires would seem like an easy investment. |
2014-03-19 11:59 AM in reply to: Aarondb4 |
Extreme Veteran 933 Connecticut | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me And another question, what do you all favor brand wise? Only see pink and blue vittorias out there, and then only with 50mm, is everyone using valve extenders for deep rim wheels? If so..if the tubes are all 50mm valves, the smallest valve extender I can find is 30mm, that's a lot of valve sticking up on my 52mm rims. Am I missing something? Are the valve extenders re-usable? |
2014-03-19 12:04 PM in reply to: Aarondb4 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by Aarondb4
Can I get some more opinions on the "feel and handling" aspect? It surprises me that the tube could really make much difference in the feel and handling, would think the tire does most of that. Is it really enough to feel a difference? If the latex tube is more supple does that mean you have to run a higher pressure in the tire? Would seem if the tube is more supple, the same pressure would give you more slack in the tire and this increase rolling resistance. So do you have to go 120psi in a latex where you would normally go 110psi in a butyl? Its snake oil!!! It does just about anything, that's all you need to know. The test that are out there for the public to look at have several variables that are not tested, and therefore you cannot draw conclusions from. Although most do as you have seen. |
2014-03-19 12:09 PM in reply to: Aarondb4 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by Aarondb4
Can I get some more opinions on the "feel and handling" aspect? It surprises me that the tube could really make much difference in the feel and handling, would think the tire does most of that. Is it really enough to feel a difference? If the latex tube is more supple does that mean you have to run a higher pressure in the tire? Would seem if the tube is more supple, the same pressure would give you more slack in the tire and this increase rolling resistance. So do you have to go 120psi in a latex where you would normally go 110psi in a butyl? Being more supple does not mean you need more pressure. A tire can be more supple. For instance your conti 4000s has a higher thread count than your gatorskin, making it more supple; you would use the same pressure. Optimal pressure is governed by load and by weather conditions. The feel and handling is better because of how the tire will conform to the road. a more supple tire (and tube) will conform with less pressure applied, giving you better "grip." Tubular tires tend to have a better road feel because they do not have tubes inside them like a clincher does. A latex tube gets you closer to a tubular "feel." |
2014-03-19 12:11 PM in reply to: fisherman76 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by fisherman76 And another question, what do you all favor brand wise? Only see pink and blue vittorias out there, and then only with 50mm, is everyone using valve extenders for deep rim wheels? If so..if the tubes are all 50mm valves, the smallest valve extender I can find is 30mm, that's a lot of valve sticking up on my 52mm rims. Am I missing something? Are the valve extenders re-usable? I tend to just use what brand I can find. Most of them have removable valve cores so you could replace it with a longer stem, and move that stem from tube to tube if you so desired. |
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2014-03-19 12:12 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Aarondb4 Its snake oil!!! It does just about anything, that's all you need to know. The test that are out there for the public to look at have several variables that are not tested, and therefore you cannot draw conclusions from. Although most do as you have seen.
Can I get some more opinions on the "feel and handling" aspect? It surprises me that the tube could really make much difference in the feel and handling, would think the tire does most of that. Is it really enough to feel a difference? If the latex tube is more supple does that mean you have to run a higher pressure in the tire? Would seem if the tube is more supple, the same pressure would give you more slack in the tire and this increase rolling resistance. So do you have to go 120psi in a latex where you would normally go 110psi in a butyl? Not sure what you are on about, could you provide some evidence to back up whatever you are trying to say? There have been multiple published tests by third party sources that have all confirmed something close to a 3 watt/wheel difference when using a latex tube. |
2014-03-19 12:13 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I train and race on the same wheels (PT) and it's not worth it for me. I'm not paying $15 a tube and then baby-powdering it on install, and switching back and forth for racing. That's wayyyyy too much effort for 2 Watts/wheel. Someone posted 2% times savings....which would imply ~1:00 on a sprint which seems like a very bold statement. For all the time and hassle they are, I'd rather be sitting on my trainer and earning those extra watts. and if we're really splitting hairs...why not just run tubulars? does anyone REALLY repair a flat in a sprint anyway? If you assume 300 watts average power, which I believe LB's son is close to, 3 watts per wheel, 6 watts total, is 2% of the total power. Running tubulars would require him to get new wheels. And you spend how much time running and cycling and swimming to gain a few seconds in a race? Taking a few minutes to put in tires would seem like an easy investment. Yeah, he'll go 300 avg. watts pretty easy on a flat sprint course....and unlike my race, seconds absolutely count for him and could easily be the difference of a podium or not. Last year at Sprint nationals the difference between 4th and 6th place overall was 1.18 seconds, with less than 25 seconds between 4th and 11th. |
2014-03-19 12:21 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I train and race on the same wheels (PT) and it's not worth it for me. I'm not paying $15 a tube and then baby-powdering it on install, and switching back and forth for racing. That's wayyyyy too much effort for 2 Watts/wheel. Someone posted 2% times savings....which would imply ~1:00 on a sprint which seems like a very bold statement. For all the time and hassle they are, I'd rather be sitting on my trainer and earning those extra watts. and if we're really splitting hairs...why not just run tubulars? does anyone REALLY repair a flat in a sprint anyway? If you assume 300 watts average power, which I believe LB's son is close to, 3 watts per wheel, 6 watts total, is 2% of the total power. Running tubulars would require him to get new wheels. And you spend how much time running and cycling and swimming to gain a few seconds in a race? Taking a few minutes to put in tires would seem like an easy investment. Yeah, he'll go 300 avg. watts pretty easy on a flat sprint course....and unlike my race, seconds absolutely count for him and could easily be the difference of a podium or not. Last year at Sprint nationals the difference between 4th and 6th place overall was 1.18 seconds, with less than 25 seconds between 4th and 11th. You want latex tubes and good tires for sure. Install the tubes a few days ahead of time and get a couple of rides in on them to make sure they are installed ok and you'll be good to go. and check the rim tape! twice! |
2014-03-19 12:26 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Latex tubes.....school me Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Aarondb4 Its snake oil!!! It does just about anything, that's all you need to know. The test that are out there for the public to look at have several variables that are not tested, and therefore you cannot draw conclusions from. Although most do as you have seen.
Can I get some more opinions on the "feel and handling" aspect? It surprises me that the tube could really make much difference in the feel and handling, would think the tire does most of that. Is it really enough to feel a difference? If the latex tube is more supple does that mean you have to run a higher pressure in the tire? Would seem if the tube is more supple, the same pressure would give you more slack in the tire and this increase rolling resistance. So do you have to go 120psi in a latex where you would normally go 110psi in a butyl? Not sure what you are on about, could you provide some evidence to back up whatever you are trying to say? There have been multiple published tests by third party sources that have all confirmed something close to a 3 watt/wheel difference when using a latex tube. + 1. It isn't snake oil. For someone like me who is closer to 200 watts (or less) for a HIM, 6 watts is an even bigger percentage of my power. Being somewhat deficient in the biking power department, I do everything I can to mazimize that power. Good, low CRR tires with latex tubes absolutely make a difference. It may not be much but it is there. Add that to some aerodynamic tweaks (get all of that stuff that is hanging off of your bike out of the air) and some wheels (with a disc cover--because that may only be seconds too, but it is seconds!) and a helmet and it all starts to add up. I am interested in making the most of what I have. You may not feel like latex tubes and good tires are worth it to you. Once I added them to my racing arsenal, I am never going back. Add in the fact that once installed, they are actually more flat resistant and I can't understand why you wouldn't run them. FWIW, I have averaged about $30/year for the last two years on latex tubes. Edited by wannabefaster 2014-03-19 12:30 PM |
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