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 2014-04-07 10:22 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Elite  3090    Spokane, WA |  Subject: RE: Kona elitism.Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I would argue that Gomez could, Ivan Rana finished 6th in his debut at Kona, and Butterfield finished 7th. They are contenders. EDIT: And Frodeno just blew away everyone at Oceanside. Kona is his aim this year. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 How many do you want? Alistar Brownlee Johnnie Brownlee Javier Gomez (I will argue right now he is the worldest most versatile and best triathlete) Mario Mola Tim Don Jan Frodeno Josh Amberger Aaron Royle Ivan Rana (He is right next to Gomez as one of the most all around athletes, finished 6th in Kona debut, back on ITU circuit, damn) Sven Reiderer Tyler Butterfield There is plenty more then can compete in Kona outside of those that are right now. Point is at least for Pro's, Kona is a career move as they develop over time. It is rare you see a Kona champion that is under 32 (AL-Sultan), Kona is part of the natural career progression in triathlon. See past champions, wonder where Alexander developed his speed? What did Macca do after he won everything? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by marcag Very much a personal opinion Kona is an iconic event with history and tradition. That includes lottery winners. I don't think Kona should be considered the world championship. ITU should take control of world championship and it should be 100% by performance/qualification. Challenge will eventually create a championship event and the owner has made it clear it won't be Roth because he wants Roth to have a special place for ALL triathletes. I think this is the correct perspective. This. Yes I respect those that work hard to get there. But at the end of the day it's not an internationally sanctioned championship. In that respect it is no different than the HITS series of races culminating in the "championships" in Palm Springs. It's a privately owned, made-up "world championship" x3. The sooner people realize that the best triathletes in the world are not racing WTC, the sooner we can put this whole thing about Kona and "World Championship" to bed. The WTC is a business focused on making profits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Their #1 goal is not out to prove who is the #1 pro or the #1 AGer in the world. If that was their goal, then they would pay much bigger pro purses and have a much more even distribution of WC slots among international races. The would also move the WC race around the world as well as get rid of lottery slots. So why has the WTC not made these moves??? You guessed it...because it would hurt their profitability. Keeping a "pseudo" "world championship" race in Kona keeps people coming back for more WTC races and entering the lottery over and over again. It gets people chasing after the legacy program. Moving the IMWC around the world would kill that. The WTC isn't stupid. I can't say I have given this much thought or really feel strongly about it. I originally was going to ask a few questions but a lot of what I was going to ask is clarified above. It does seem like there simply needs to be a "real" world championship that you have to qualify for (and should be able to via several different "brands" of tri events.) It sounds like Kona can still be Kona and have the same routes to get in, like some of the big marathons do (Boston, Chicago, London, NYC etc.) Notice, none of those big name marathons are branded as world championship.
It does seem odd that there are lottery spots for a "world championship" so I can see why some people might feel a little entitled.
There are world championship events. This year's long course world championship is in China. Oh, ok. (I'm assuming everyone that goes has to qualify?) Then, I guess it shouldn't matter! Yes, you must qualify at your country's national championship. I apologize, I am really out of the loop with triathlon. But then why is Kona even a pseduo world championship? Because the company that puts it on writes "World Championship" in the name. It has about as much legitimacy as you give it. I personally give it a great deal of legitimacy. I believe that the person that wins Kona is the "world champion". I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it. There might not be a ton of prize money, but the endorsements that come with winning Kona are very likely the best in the sport. And the fact that the winners in recent history almost all come from Australia and Europe tend to validate that it is truly a World Championship. I'd like to know who these pro triathletes are that could win Kona but elect not to race. Names, please. None of those could win Kona now. The whole discussion was whether Kona was a World Championship for the distance, so this isn't really relevant. Thanks for reinforcing my point. If a pro triathlete wants to compete for a championship at the 140.6 distance, they do it at Kona. For now, it is the World Championship. |
| 2014-04-07 10:53 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655   | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. zed - that was friggin' masterful. I'm not even sure what just happened. LMAO Edited by Left Brain 2014-04-07 10:57 PM |
| 2014-04-07 11:03 PM in reply to: zed707 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by zed707 Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I would argue that Gomez could, Ivan Rana finished 6th in his debut at Kona, and Butterfield finished 7th. They are contenders. EDIT: And Frodeno just blew away everyone at Oceanside. Kona is his aim this year. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 How many do you want? Alistar Brownlee Johnnie Brownlee Javier Gomez (I will argue right now he is the worldest most versatile and best triathlete) Mario Mola Tim Don Jan Frodeno Josh Amberger Aaron Royle Ivan Rana (He is right next to Gomez as one of the most all around athletes, finished 6th in Kona debut, back on ITU circuit, damn) Sven Reiderer Tyler Butterfield There is plenty more then can compete in Kona outside of those that are right now. Point is at least for Pro's, Kona is a career move as they develop over time. It is rare you see a Kona champion that is under 32 (AL-Sultan), Kona is part of the natural career progression in triathlon. See past champions, wonder where Alexander developed his speed? What did Macca do after he won everything? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by marcag Very much a personal opinion Kona is an iconic event with history and tradition. That includes lottery winners. I don't think Kona should be considered the world championship. ITU should take control of world championship and it should be 100% by performance/qualification. Challenge will eventually create a championship event and the owner has made it clear it won't be Roth because he wants Roth to have a special place for ALL triathletes. I think this is the correct perspective. This. Yes I respect those that work hard to get there. But at the end of the day it's not an internationally sanctioned championship. In that respect it is no different than the HITS series of races culminating in the "championships" in Palm Springs. It's a privately owned, made-up "world championship" x3. The sooner people realize that the best triathletes in the world are not racing WTC, the sooner we can put this whole thing about Kona and "World Championship" to bed. The WTC is a business focused on making profits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Their #1 goal is not out to prove who is the #1 pro or the #1 AGer in the world. If that was their goal, then they would pay much bigger pro purses and have a much more even distribution of WC slots among international races. The would also move the WC race around the world as well as get rid of lottery slots. So why has the WTC not made these moves??? You guessed it...because it would hurt their profitability. Keeping a "pseudo" "world championship" race in Kona keeps people coming back for more WTC races and entering the lottery over and over again. It gets people chasing after the legacy program. Moving the IMWC around the world would kill that. The WTC isn't stupid. I can't say I have given this much thought or really feel strongly about it. I originally was going to ask a few questions but a lot of what I was going to ask is clarified above. It does seem like there simply needs to be a "real" world championship that you have to qualify for (and should be able to via several different "brands" of tri events.) It sounds like Kona can still be Kona and have the same routes to get in, like some of the big marathons do (Boston, Chicago, London, NYC etc.) Notice, none of those big name marathons are branded as world championship.
It does seem odd that there are lottery spots for a "world championship" so I can see why some people might feel a little entitled.
There are world championship events. This year's long course world championship is in China. Oh, ok. (I'm assuming everyone that goes has to qualify?) Then, I guess it shouldn't matter! Yes, you must qualify at your country's national championship. I apologize, I am really out of the loop with triathlon. But then why is Kona even a pseduo world championship? Because the company that puts it on writes "World Championship" in the name. It has about as much legitimacy as you give it. I personally give it a great deal of legitimacy. I believe that the person that wins Kona is the "world champion". I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it. There might not be a ton of prize money, but the endorsements that come with winning Kona are very likely the best in the sport. And the fact that the winners in recent history almost all come from Australia and Europe tend to validate that it is truly a World Championship. I'd like to know who these pro triathletes are that could win Kona but elect not to race. Names, please. None of those could win Kona now. The whole discussion was whether Kona was a World Championship for the distance, so this isn't really relevant. Thanks for reinforcing my point. If a pro triathlete wants to compete for a championship at the 140.6 distance, they do it at Kona. For now, it is the World Championship. I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc). |
| 2014-04-07 11:15 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc). Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I would argue that Gomez could, Ivan Rana finished 6th in his debut at Kona, and Butterfield finished 7th. They are contenders. EDIT: And Frodeno just blew away everyone at Oceanside. Kona is his aim this year. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 How many do you want? Alistar Brownlee Johnnie Brownlee Javier Gomez (I will argue right now he is the worldest most versatile and best triathlete) Mario Mola Tim Don Jan Frodeno Josh Amberger Aaron Royle Ivan Rana (He is right next to Gomez as one of the most all around athletes, finished 6th in Kona debut, back on ITU circuit, damn) Sven Reiderer Tyler Butterfield There is plenty more then can compete in Kona outside of those that are right now. Point is at least for Pro's, Kona is a career move as they develop over time. It is rare you see a Kona champion that is under 32 (AL-Sultan), Kona is part of the natural career progression in triathlon. See past champions, wonder where Alexander developed his speed? What did Macca do after he won everything? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by marcag Very much a personal opinion Kona is an iconic event with history and tradition. That includes lottery winners. I don't think Kona should be considered the world championship. ITU should take control of world championship and it should be 100% by performance/qualification. Challenge will eventually create a championship event and the owner has made it clear it won't be Roth because he wants Roth to have a special place for ALL triathletes. I think this is the correct perspective. This. Yes I respect those that work hard to get there. But at the end of the day it's not an internationally sanctioned championship. In that respect it is no different than the HITS series of races culminating in the "championships" in Palm Springs. It's a privately owned, made-up "world championship" x3. The sooner people realize that the best triathletes in the world are not racing WTC, the sooner we can put this whole thing about Kona and "World Championship" to bed. The WTC is a business focused on making profits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Their #1 goal is not out to prove who is the #1 pro or the #1 AGer in the world. If that was their goal, then they would pay much bigger pro purses and have a much more even distribution of WC slots among international races. The would also move the WC race around the world as well as get rid of lottery slots. So why has the WTC not made these moves??? You guessed it...because it would hurt their profitability. Keeping a "pseudo" "world championship" race in Kona keeps people coming back for more WTC races and entering the lottery over and over again. It gets people chasing after the legacy program. Moving the IMWC around the world would kill that. The WTC isn't stupid. I can't say I have given this much thought or really feel strongly about it. I originally was going to ask a few questions but a lot of what I was going to ask is clarified above. It does seem like there simply needs to be a "real" world championship that you have to qualify for (and should be able to via several different "brands" of tri events.) It sounds like Kona can still be Kona and have the same routes to get in, like some of the big marathons do (Boston, Chicago, London, NYC etc.) Notice, none of those big name marathons are branded as world championship.
It does seem odd that there are lottery spots for a "world championship" so I can see why some people might feel a little entitled.
There are world championship events. This year's long course world championship is in China. Oh, ok. (I'm assuming everyone that goes has to qualify?) Then, I guess it shouldn't matter! Yes, you must qualify at your country's national championship. I apologize, I am really out of the loop with triathlon. But then why is Kona even a pseduo world championship? Because the company that puts it on writes "World Championship" in the name. It has about as much legitimacy as you give it. I personally give it a great deal of legitimacy. I believe that the person that wins Kona is the "world champion". I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it. There might not be a ton of prize money, but the endorsements that come with winning Kona are very likely the best in the sport. And the fact that the winners in recent history almost all come from Australia and Europe tend to validate that it is truly a World Championship. I'd like to know who these pro triathletes are that could win Kona but elect not to race. Names, please. None of those could win Kona now. The whole discussion was whether Kona was a World Championship for the distance, so this isn't really relevant. Thanks for reinforcing my point. If a pro triathlete wants to compete for a championship at the 140.6 distance, they do it at Kona. For now, it is the World Championship. You're on your own dude.....zed's got some crazy circular ninja mojo.....I'm out. Edited by Left Brain 2014-04-07 11:16 PM |
| 2014-04-07 11:35 PM in reply to: #4977674 |
| Veteran 379 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. I clicked on the study link which "evidences "that a large number of triathletes dope. There's no evidence, and I am aware of a lot of age groupers doping – people who take more than 14 hours to finish an IM. at the end of the day, protect the people who dope are not differentiated by finishing times, it's mentality. I choose to believe the sport is pretty clean. if people working full-time jobs, with limited funds and no coach can manage to do sub 12 hours, it's not so far-fetched that a pro is only a couple hours better - sans doping. regarding elitism - if you get in the allottery and you felt that there was elitism and snobs, make sure and take that person's number and as you see them on the course yell "that's right mofo lottery and I still am close enough to see you! lot-to-ry!" |
| 2014-04-07 11:37 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by sheesleeva I clicked on the study link which "evidences "that a large number of triathletes dope. There's no evidence, and I am aware of a lot of age groupers doping – people who take more than 14 hours to finish an IM. at the end of the day, protect the people who dope are not differentiated by finishing times, it's mentality. I choose to believe the sport is pretty clean. if people working full-time jobs, with limited funds and no coach can manage to do sub 12 hours, it's not so far-fetched that a pro is only a couple hours better - sans doping. regarding elitism - if you get in the allottery and you felt that there was elitism and snobs, make sure and take that person's number and as you see them on the course yell "that's right mofo lottery and I still am close enough to see you! lot-to-ry!" No. Still, the fact that it's only 9:37 in San Diego makes that post pretty impressive. Edited by Left Brain 2014-04-07 11:39 PM |
| 2014-04-07 11:38 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by bcagle25 I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc). I think that's a good point, but competition in the ITU circuit & Competition at IM distance are 2 different specializations...I don't think you can draw general conclusions based on speculation. Will those pros in the list you gave go on to be future champions at the IM distance? Probably. But there are also pros that choose to specialize in the IM distance from the start. Could it be because they are not "fast enough" for the ITU circuit or because they are for whatever reason drawn to the longer distance? I don't think it matters. Who are we to judge motivations? i think the original point of the thread has been lost. WTC owns the race. There are qualifying spots and there are lottery spots. Those who qualify BETTER beat the pants off of every one in the lotter for obvious reasons. So it's a moot point. You have to be an elite age grouper to be able to race against other elite age groupers at Kona. Why should they care about lottery participants and why should anyone else who gets a shot at Kona for whatever reason...care what anyone else thinks about it? We all need to stop judging other people's motivations and stop making up stories about people we don't understand. |
| 2014-04-07 11:40 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Elite 3090 Spokane, WA | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc). Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I would argue that Gomez could, Ivan Rana finished 6th in his debut at Kona, and Butterfield finished 7th. They are contenders. EDIT: And Frodeno just blew away everyone at Oceanside. Kona is his aim this year. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 How many do you want? Alistar Brownlee Johnnie Brownlee Javier Gomez (I will argue right now he is the worldest most versatile and best triathlete) Mario Mola Tim Don Jan Frodeno Josh Amberger Aaron Royle Ivan Rana (He is right next to Gomez as one of the most all around athletes, finished 6th in Kona debut, back on ITU circuit, damn) Sven Reiderer Tyler Butterfield There is plenty more then can compete in Kona outside of those that are right now. Point is at least for Pro's, Kona is a career move as they develop over time. It is rare you see a Kona champion that is under 32 (AL-Sultan), Kona is part of the natural career progression in triathlon. See past champions, wonder where Alexander developed his speed? What did Macca do after he won everything? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by marcag Very much a personal opinion Kona is an iconic event with history and tradition. That includes lottery winners. I don't think Kona should be considered the world championship. ITU should take control of world championship and it should be 100% by performance/qualification. Challenge will eventually create a championship event and the owner has made it clear it won't be Roth because he wants Roth to have a special place for ALL triathletes. I think this is the correct perspective. This. Yes I respect those that work hard to get there. But at the end of the day it's not an internationally sanctioned championship. In that respect it is no different than the HITS series of races culminating in the "championships" in Palm Springs. It's a privately owned, made-up "world championship" x3. The sooner people realize that the best triathletes in the world are not racing WTC, the sooner we can put this whole thing about Kona and "World Championship" to bed. The WTC is a business focused on making profits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Their #1 goal is not out to prove who is the #1 pro or the #1 AGer in the world. If that was their goal, then they would pay much bigger pro purses and have a much more even distribution of WC slots among international races. The would also move the WC race around the world as well as get rid of lottery slots. So why has the WTC not made these moves??? You guessed it...because it would hurt their profitability. Keeping a "pseudo" "world championship" race in Kona keeps people coming back for more WTC races and entering the lottery over and over again. It gets people chasing after the legacy program. Moving the IMWC around the world would kill that. The WTC isn't stupid. I can't say I have given this much thought or really feel strongly about it. I originally was going to ask a few questions but a lot of what I was going to ask is clarified above. It does seem like there simply needs to be a "real" world championship that you have to qualify for (and should be able to via several different "brands" of tri events.) It sounds like Kona can still be Kona and have the same routes to get in, like some of the big marathons do (Boston, Chicago, London, NYC etc.) Notice, none of those big name marathons are branded as world championship.
It does seem odd that there are lottery spots for a "world championship" so I can see why some people might feel a little entitled.
There are world championship events. This year's long course world championship is in China. Oh, ok. (I'm assuming everyone that goes has to qualify?) Then, I guess it shouldn't matter! Yes, you must qualify at your country's national championship. I apologize, I am really out of the loop with triathlon. But then why is Kona even a pseduo world championship? Because the company that puts it on writes "World Championship" in the name. It has about as much legitimacy as you give it. I personally give it a great deal of legitimacy. I believe that the person that wins Kona is the "world champion". I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it. There might not be a ton of prize money, but the endorsements that come with winning Kona are very likely the best in the sport. And the fact that the winners in recent history almost all come from Australia and Europe tend to validate that it is truly a World Championship. I'd like to know who these pro triathletes are that could win Kona but elect not to race. Names, please. None of those could win Kona now. The whole discussion was whether Kona was a World Championship for the distance, so this isn't really relevant. Thanks for reinforcing my point. If a pro triathlete wants to compete for a championship at the 140.6 distance, they do it at Kona. For now, it is the World Championship. You're funny. Nobody on the ITU circuit can lay down the bike and run splits that the winners at Kona are doing there (just about everyone knows this). |
| 2014-04-07 11:48 PM in reply to: AdventureBear |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by AdventureBear Originally posted the bcagle25 I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc). I think that's a good point, but competition in the ITU circuit & Competition at IM distance are 2 different specializations...I don't think you can draw general conclusions based on speculation. Will those pros in the list you gave go on to be future champions at the IM distance? Probably. But there are also pros that choose to specialize in the IM distance from the start. Could it be because they are not "fast enough" for the ITU circuit or because they are for whatever reason drawn to the longer distance?. I think you just opened a new can of worms. Triathlon at the pointy end is changing. Ben, Shane, and others have valid points. The future of ALL fast triathlon comes out of ITU racing. I don't think that could be said even 10 years ago, but it certainly can now. That's where the big engines get built. From the day Triathlon became an Olympic sport the top athletes were grown there......and it's filtered down to the Jr. and Youth level. It may take a few more years, or even a bit longer, but all future triathlon champions, at all distances, will come from those ranks. Watch and see. It's a different game than the rest of us play. |
| 2014-04-07 11:49 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by zed707 Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc). Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I would argue that Gomez could, Ivan Rana finished 6th in his debut at Kona, and Butterfield finished 7th. They are contenders. EDIT: And Frodeno just blew away everyone at Oceanside. Kona is his aim this year. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 How many do you want? Alistar Brownlee Johnnie Brownlee Javier Gomez (I will argue right now he is the worldest most versatile and best triathlete) Mario Mola Tim Don Jan Frodeno Josh Amberger Aaron Royle Ivan Rana (He is right next to Gomez as one of the most all around athletes, finished 6th in Kona debut, back on ITU circuit, damn) Sven Reiderer Tyler Butterfield There is plenty more then can compete in Kona outside of those that are right now. Point is at least for Pro's, Kona is a career move as they develop over time. It is rare you see a Kona champion that is under 32 (AL-Sultan), Kona is part of the natural career progression in triathlon. See past champions, wonder where Alexander developed his speed? What did Macca do after he won everything? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by marcag Very much a personal opinion Kona is an iconic event with history and tradition. That includes lottery winners. I don't think Kona should be considered the world championship. ITU should take control of world championship and it should be 100% by performance/qualification. Challenge will eventually create a championship event and the owner has made it clear it won't be Roth because he wants Roth to have a special place for ALL triathletes. I think this is the correct perspective. This. Yes I respect those that work hard to get there. But at the end of the day it's not an internationally sanctioned championship. In that respect it is no different than the HITS series of races culminating in the "championships" in Palm Springs. It's a privately owned, made-up "world championship" x3. The sooner people realize that the best triathletes in the world are not racing WTC, the sooner we can put this whole thing about Kona and "World Championship" to bed. The WTC is a business focused on making profits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Their #1 goal is not out to prove who is the #1 pro or the #1 AGer in the world. If that was their goal, then they would pay much bigger pro purses and have a much more even distribution of WC slots among international races. The would also move the WC race around the world as well as get rid of lottery slots. So why has the WTC not made these moves??? You guessed it...because it would hurt their profitability. Keeping a "pseudo" "world championship" race in Kona keeps people coming back for more WTC races and entering the lottery over and over again. It gets people chasing after the legacy program. Moving the IMWC around the world would kill that. The WTC isn't stupid. I can't say I have given this much thought or really feel strongly about it. I originally was going to ask a few questions but a lot of what I was going to ask is clarified above. It does seem like there simply needs to be a "real" world championship that you have to qualify for (and should be able to via several different "brands" of tri events.) It sounds like Kona can still be Kona and have the same routes to get in, like some of the big marathons do (Boston, Chicago, London, NYC etc.) Notice, none of those big name marathons are branded as world championship.
It does seem odd that there are lottery spots for a "world championship" so I can see why some people might feel a little entitled.
There are world championship events. This year's long course world championship is in China. Oh, ok. (I'm assuming everyone that goes has to qualify?) Then, I guess it shouldn't matter! Yes, you must qualify at your country's national championship. I apologize, I am really out of the loop with triathlon. But then why is Kona even a pseduo world championship? Because the company that puts it on writes "World Championship" in the name. It has about as much legitimacy as you give it. I personally give it a great deal of legitimacy. I believe that the person that wins Kona is the "world champion". I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it. There might not be a ton of prize money, but the endorsements that come with winning Kona are very likely the best in the sport. And the fact that the winners in recent history almost all come from Australia and Europe tend to validate that it is truly a World Championship. I'd like to know who these pro triathletes are that could win Kona but elect not to race. Names, please. None of those could win Kona now. The whole discussion was whether Kona was a World Championship for the distance, so this isn't really relevant. Thanks for reinforcing my point. If a pro triathlete wants to compete for a championship at the 140.6 distance, they do it at Kona. For now, it is the World Championship. You're funny. Nobody on the ITU circuit can lay down the bike and run splits that the winners at Kona are doing there (just about everyone knows this). You had such a good thing going......and then this. LMAO What you should have said is that everyone on the pointy end of IM would get their arse handed to them at the Olympic distance ITU level. It will always be that way.....the only difference will be the speed that is carried over to IM distance by athletes who were grown at the ITU level. If you didn't build your engine there you will be sucking wind. The future of all fast triathlon is in ITU racing.
Edited by Left Brain 2014-04-07 11:56 PM |
| 2014-04-08 12:20 AM in reply to: 0 |
Elite 3090 Spokane, WA | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by zed707 Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc). Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I would argue that Gomez could, Ivan Rana finished 6th in his debut at Kona, and Butterfield finished 7th. They are contenders. EDIT: And Frodeno just blew away everyone at Oceanside. Kona is his aim this year. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 How many do you want? Alistar Brownlee Johnnie Brownlee Javier Gomez (I will argue right now he is the worldest most versatile and best triathlete) Mario Mola Tim Don Jan Frodeno Josh Amberger Aaron Royle Ivan Rana (He is right next to Gomez as one of the most all around athletes, finished 6th in Kona debut, back on ITU circuit, damn) Sven Reiderer Tyler Butterfield There is plenty more then can compete in Kona outside of those that are right now. Point is at least for Pro's, Kona is a career move as they develop over time. It is rare you see a Kona champion that is under 32 (AL-Sultan), Kona is part of the natural career progression in triathlon. See past champions, wonder where Alexander developed his speed? What did Macca do after he won everything? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by marcag Very much a personal opinion Kona is an iconic event with history and tradition. That includes lottery winners. I don't think Kona should be considered the world championship. ITU should take control of world championship and it should be 100% by performance/qualification. Challenge will eventually create a championship event and the owner has made it clear it won't be Roth because he wants Roth to have a special place for ALL triathletes. I think this is the correct perspective. This. Yes I respect those that work hard to get there. But at the end of the day it's not an internationally sanctioned championship. In that respect it is no different than the HITS series of races culminating in the "championships" in Palm Springs. It's a privately owned, made-up "world championship" x3. The sooner people realize that the best triathletes in the world are not racing WTC, the sooner we can put this whole thing about Kona and "World Championship" to bed. The WTC is a business focused on making profits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Their #1 goal is not out to prove who is the #1 pro or the #1 AGer in the world. If that was their goal, then they would pay much bigger pro purses and have a much more even distribution of WC slots among international races. The would also move the WC race around the world as well as get rid of lottery slots. So why has the WTC not made these moves??? You guessed it...because it would hurt their profitability. Keeping a "pseudo" "world championship" race in Kona keeps people coming back for more WTC races and entering the lottery over and over again. It gets people chasing after the legacy program. Moving the IMWC around the world would kill that. The WTC isn't stupid. I can't say I have given this much thought or really feel strongly about it. I originally was going to ask a few questions but a lot of what I was going to ask is clarified above. It does seem like there simply needs to be a "real" world championship that you have to qualify for (and should be able to via several different "brands" of tri events.) It sounds like Kona can still be Kona and have the same routes to get in, like some of the big marathons do (Boston, Chicago, London, NYC etc.) Notice, none of those big name marathons are branded as world championship.
It does seem odd that there are lottery spots for a "world championship" so I can see why some people might feel a little entitled.
There are world championship events. This year's long course world championship is in China. Oh, ok. (I'm assuming everyone that goes has to qualify?) Then, I guess it shouldn't matter! Yes, you must qualify at your country's national championship. I apologize, I am really out of the loop with triathlon. But then why is Kona even a pseduo world championship? Because the company that puts it on writes "World Championship" in the name. It has about as much legitimacy as you give it. I personally give it a great deal of legitimacy. I believe that the person that wins Kona is the "world champion". I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it. There might not be a ton of prize money, but the endorsements that come with winning Kona are very likely the best in the sport. And the fact that the winners in recent history almost all come from Australia and Europe tend to validate that it is truly a World Championship. I'd like to know who these pro triathletes are that could win Kona but elect not to race. Names, please. None of those could win Kona now. The whole discussion was whether Kona was a World Championship for the distance, so this isn't really relevant. Thanks for reinforcing my point. If a pro triathlete wants to compete for a championship at the 140.6 distance, they do it at Kona. For now, it is the World Championship. You're funny. Nobody on the ITU circuit can lay down the bike and run splits that the winners at Kona are doing there (just about everyone knows this). You had such a good thing going......and then this. LMAO What you should have said is that everyone on the pointy end of IM would get their arse handed to them at the Olympic distance ITU level. It will always be that way.....the only difference will be the speed that is carried over to IM distance by athletes who were grown at the ITU level. If you didn't build your engine there you will be sucking wind. The future of all fast triathlon is in ITU racing.
LMAO. How is that different than saying that anyone in ITU racing would be handed their arse at Kona? They're not trained at that distance. It's apples and oranges and I understand that. I'm just saying that Kona is the World Championship of 140.6.
Edited by zed707 2014-04-08 12:28 AM |
| 2014-04-08 8:48 AM in reply to: zed707 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by zed707 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by zed707 Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc). Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 I would argue that Gomez could, Ivan Rana finished 6th in his debut at Kona, and Butterfield finished 7th. They are contenders. EDIT: And Frodeno just blew away everyone at Oceanside. Kona is his aim this year. Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by zed707 How many do you want? Alistar Brownlee Johnnie Brownlee Javier Gomez (I will argue right now he is the worldest most versatile and best triathlete) Mario Mola Tim Don Jan Frodeno Josh Amberger Aaron Royle Ivan Rana (He is right next to Gomez as one of the most all around athletes, finished 6th in Kona debut, back on ITU circuit, damn) Sven Reiderer Tyler Butterfield There is plenty more then can compete in Kona outside of those that are right now. Point is at least for Pro's, Kona is a career move as they develop over time. It is rare you see a Kona champion that is under 32 (AL-Sultan), Kona is part of the natural career progression in triathlon. See past champions, wonder where Alexander developed his speed? What did Macca do after he won everything? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by marcag Very much a personal opinion Kona is an iconic event with history and tradition. That includes lottery winners. I don't think Kona should be considered the world championship. ITU should take control of world championship and it should be 100% by performance/qualification. Challenge will eventually create a championship event and the owner has made it clear it won't be Roth because he wants Roth to have a special place for ALL triathletes. I think this is the correct perspective. This. Yes I respect those that work hard to get there. But at the end of the day it's not an internationally sanctioned championship. In that respect it is no different than the HITS series of races culminating in the "championships" in Palm Springs. It's a privately owned, made-up "world championship" x3. The sooner people realize that the best triathletes in the world are not racing WTC, the sooner we can put this whole thing about Kona and "World Championship" to bed. The WTC is a business focused on making profits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Their #1 goal is not out to prove who is the #1 pro or the #1 AGer in the world. If that was their goal, then they would pay much bigger pro purses and have a much more even distribution of WC slots among international races. The would also move the WC race around the world as well as get rid of lottery slots. So why has the WTC not made these moves??? You guessed it...because it would hurt their profitability. Keeping a "pseudo" "world championship" race in Kona keeps people coming back for more WTC races and entering the lottery over and over again. It gets people chasing after the legacy program. Moving the IMWC around the world would kill that. The WTC isn't stupid. I can't say I have given this much thought or really feel strongly about it. I originally was going to ask a few questions but a lot of what I was going to ask is clarified above. It does seem like there simply needs to be a "real" world championship that you have to qualify for (and should be able to via several different "brands" of tri events.) It sounds like Kona can still be Kona and have the same routes to get in, like some of the big marathons do (Boston, Chicago, London, NYC etc.) Notice, none of those big name marathons are branded as world championship.
It does seem odd that there are lottery spots for a "world championship" so I can see why some people might feel a little entitled.
There are world championship events. This year's long course world championship is in China. Oh, ok. (I'm assuming everyone that goes has to qualify?) Then, I guess it shouldn't matter! Yes, you must qualify at your country's national championship. I apologize, I am really out of the loop with triathlon. But then why is Kona even a pseduo world championship? Because the company that puts it on writes "World Championship" in the name. It has about as much legitimacy as you give it. I personally give it a great deal of legitimacy. I believe that the person that wins Kona is the "world champion". I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it. There might not be a ton of prize money, but the endorsements that come with winning Kona are very likely the best in the sport. And the fact that the winners in recent history almost all come from Australia and Europe tend to validate that it is truly a World Championship. I'd like to know who these pro triathletes are that could win Kona but elect not to race. Names, please. None of those could win Kona now. The whole discussion was whether Kona was a World Championship for the distance, so this isn't really relevant. Thanks for reinforcing my point. If a pro triathlete wants to compete for a championship at the 140.6 distance, they do it at Kona. For now, it is the World Championship. You're funny. Nobody on the ITU circuit can lay down the bike and run splits that the winners at Kona are doing there (just about everyone knows this). You had such a good thing going......and then this. LMAO What you should have said is that everyone on the pointy end of IM would get their arse handed to them at the Olympic distance ITU level. It will always be that way.....the only difference will be the speed that is carried over to IM distance by athletes who were grown at the ITU level. If you didn't build your engine there you will be sucking wind. The future of all fast triathlon is in ITU racing.
LMAO. How is that different than saying that anyone in ITU racing would be handed their arse at Kona? They're not trained at that distance. It's apples and oranges and I understand that. I'm just saying that Kona is the World Championship of 140.6.
The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. |
| 2014-04-08 8:58 AM in reply to: 0 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Left Brain The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. I'm gonna one up you with the awesome logic that's been applied above. Kona is not a real world championship because there are at least 5 people in the world that have never done a triathlon, but have spectacular genetics and if they ever start training then they will surely beat the pants off of any of the current top racers. So there, i thumb my nose at your ICU speculation garbage and say that even those guys aren't the "best" in the world because of some russian farmer that just hasn't trained yet is really the best. Just wait until he starts training. [ETA: that wasn't really a reply to that comment, LB, it was more to the whole set of comments, I was just tired of scrolling down so much through comment quotes] Edited by Danno77 2014-04-08 8:59 AM |
| 2014-04-08 9:03 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm gonna one up you with the awesome logic that's been applied above. Kona is not a real world championship because there are at least 5 people in the world that have never done a triathlon, but have spectacular genetics and if they ever start training then they will surely beat the pants off of any of the current top racers. So there, i thumb my nose at your ICU speculation garbage and say that even those guys aren't the "best" in the world because of some russian farmer that just hasn't trained yet is really the best. Just wait until he starts training. The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. Not true, it's too late for your Russian farmer. The body's pathways needed for real speed are built early in life, and it passed him by. I will say this to your point. There are LOTS of young people who carry the genetics to be really fast triathletes, but they'll never get the chance because it's too expensive for them to play. ETA - don't worry about me getting sideways with comments.....I enjoy the discussion. Edited by Left Brain 2014-04-08 9:05 AM |
| 2014-04-08 9:04 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm gonna one up you with the awesome logic that's been applied above. Kona is not a real world championship because there are at least 5 people in the world that have never done a triathlon, but have spectacular genetics and if they ever start training then they will surely beat the pants off of any of the current top racers. So there, i thumb my nose at your ICU speculation garbage and say that even those guys aren't the "best" in the world because of some russian farmer that just hasn't trained yet is really the best. Just wait until he starts training. The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. Not true, it's too late for your Russian farmer. The body's pathways needed for real speed are built early in life, and it passed him by. I will say this to your point. There are LOTS of young people who carry the genetics to be really fast triathletes, but they'll never get the chance because it's too expensive for them to play. He's 12. They start farming young in Soviet Russia. |
| 2014-04-08 9:14 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Left Brain He's 12. They start farming young in Soviet Russia. Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm gonna one up you with the awesome logic that's been applied above. Kona is not a real world championship because there are at least 5 people in the world that have never done a triathlon, but have spectacular genetics and if they ever start training then they will surely beat the pants off of any of the current top racers. So there, i thumb my nose at your ICU speculation garbage and say that even those guys aren't the "best" in the world because of some russian farmer that just hasn't trained yet is really the best. Just wait until he starts training. The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. Not true, it's too late for your Russian farmer. The body's pathways needed for real speed are built early in life, and it passed him by. I will say this to your point. There are LOTS of young people who carry the genetics to be really fast triathletes, but they'll never get the chance because it's too expensive for them to play. HA!! But he's poor....forget it. |
| 2014-04-08 9:17 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Left Brain HA!! But he's poor....forget it. Darnit. I submit. |
| 2014-04-08 9:27 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 631 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm gonna one up you with the awesome logic that's been applied above. Kona is not a real world championship because there are at least 5 people in the world that have never done a triathlon, but have spectacular genetics and if they ever start training then they will surely beat the pants off of any of the current top racers. So there, i thumb my nose at your ICU speculation garbage and say that even those guys aren't the "best" in the world because of some russian farmer that just hasn't trained yet is really the best. Just wait until he starts training. The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. Not true, it's too late for your Russian farmer. The body's pathways needed for real speed are built early in life, and it passed him by. I will say this to your point. There are LOTS of young people who carry the genetics to be really fast triathletes, but they'll never get the chance because it's too expensive for them to play. ETA - don't worry about me getting sideways with comments.....I enjoy the discussion. You could say this about every sport. People that grew up in warm climates were never exposed to winter sports. I would be willing to say that the best male volleyball players are playing in the NBA. I can't say that someone is really the "best" just because they had the genetic potential. |
| 2014-04-08 9:33 AM in reply to: Sidney Porter |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Sidney Porter Originally posted by Left Brain You could say this about every sport. People that grew up in warm climates were never exposed to winter sports. I would be willing to say that the best male volleyball players are playing in the NBA. I can't say that someone is really the "best" just because they had the genetic potential. Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm gonna one up you with the awesome logic that's been applied above. Kona is not a real world championship because there are at least 5 people in the world that have never done a triathlon, but have spectacular genetics and if they ever start training then they will surely beat the pants off of any of the current top racers. So there, i thumb my nose at your ICU speculation garbage and say that even those guys aren't the "best" in the world because of some russian farmer that just hasn't trained yet is really the best. Just wait until he starts training. The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. Not true, it's too late for your Russian farmer. The body's pathways needed for real speed are built early in life, and it passed him by. I will say this to your point. There are LOTS of young people who carry the genetics to be really fast triathletes, but they'll never get the chance because it's too expensive for them to play. ETA - don't worry about me getting sideways with comments.....I enjoy the discussion. No....I can teach you how to hit a baseball. Someone else can teach you how to dribble a basketball, or ski, or play volleyball. I can't teach you to run a 4 minute mile if you haven't built that speed and endurance from a young age. (and have some really good genetics) We are talkig about FAST triathletes.....not the guy who wins your local triathlon. |
| 2014-04-08 9:33 AM in reply to: Sidney Porter |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Sidney Porter Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm gonna one up you with the awesome logic that's been applied above. Kona is not a real world championship because there are at least 5 people in the world that have never done a triathlon, but have spectacular genetics and if they ever start training then they will surely beat the pants off of any of the current top racers. So there, i thumb my nose at your ICU speculation garbage and say that even those guys aren't the "best" in the world because of some russian farmer that just hasn't trained yet is really the best. Just wait until he starts training. The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. Not true, it's too late for your Russian farmer. The body's pathways needed for real speed are built early in life, and it passed him by. I will say this to your point. There are LOTS of young people who carry the genetics to be really fast triathletes, but they'll never get the chance because it's too expensive for them to play. ETA - don't worry about me getting sideways with comments.....I enjoy the discussion. You could say this about every sport. People that grew up in warm climates were never exposed to winter sports. I would be willing to say that the best male volleyball players are playing in the NBA. I can't say that someone is really the "best" just because they had the genetic potential. And THAT is my point regarding all the ICU are the best crap. They have NOT trained for it, they clearly have genetic potential, no doubt, but like my Russian Farmer (funding excluded) unless they train for the competition it's all just armchair conjecture. SO, Even if you win Kona two years from now, you can't say "Remember when I was dropping awesome 70.3 times in 2014? and you won Kona that year? Yeah, I was really better than you I just wasn't racing 140.6s." |
| 2014-04-08 9:40 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Left Brain What you should have said is that everyone on the pointy end of IM would get their arse handed to them at the Olympic distance ITU level. It will always be that way.....the only difference will be the speed that is carried over to IM distance by athletes who were grown at the ITU level. If you didn't build your engine there you will be sucking wind. The future of all fast triathlon is in ITU racing.
You mean the future of all fast triathlon HAS ALWAYS been ITU Racing. I believe all of the IM greats had their start in ITU. It's no different. |
| 2014-04-08 9:41 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Sidney Porter And THAT is my point regarding all the ICU are the best crap. They have NOT trained for it, they clearly have genetic potential, no doubt, but like my Russian Farmer (funding excluded) unless they train for the competition it's all just armchair conjecture. SO, Even if you win Kona two years from now, you can't say "Remember when I was dropping awesome 70.3 times in 2014? and you won Kona that year? Yeah, I was really better than you I just wasn't racing 140.6s." Originally posted by Left Brain You could say this about every sport. People that grew up in warm climates were never exposed to winter sports. I would be willing to say that the best male volleyball players are playing in the NBA. I can't say that someone is really the "best" just because they had the genetic potential. Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm gonna one up you with the awesome logic that's been applied above. Kona is not a real world championship because there are at least 5 people in the world that have never done a triathlon, but have spectacular genetics and if they ever start training then they will surely beat the pants off of any of the current top racers. So there, i thumb my nose at your ICU speculation garbage and say that even those guys aren't the "best" in the world because of some russian farmer that just hasn't trained yet is really the best. Just wait until he starts training. The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. Not true, it's too late for your Russian farmer. The body's pathways needed for real speed are built early in life, and it passed him by. I will say this to your point. There are LOTS of young people who carry the genetics to be really fast triathletes, but they'll never get the chance because it's too expensive for them to play. ETA - don't worry about me getting sideways with comments.....I enjoy the discussion. Dude - people come along and break sportiong records all the time......so yeah, they were better but just not there yet. Triathlon is so young and there never has been a wave of really young, fast, triathletes like the one that is coming. Gomex, Brownlee, etc. are just the beginning of the flood. I easily remember the day when a 15-19 year old kid had ZERO chance of winning even a local triathlon.....it was basically unheard of. If one of these kids from any of a dozen High Performance youth teams shows up at your race it's over. I was a duathlon this weekend.....the top FIVE women overall were 13-16 years old. All of them from the same youth team. That's a new trend.....and it's growing and growing. I'm sorry that you haven't been exposed to more of this type of racing......it's not crap. ITU triathlon contains the best triathletes in the world....and a stampede is coming. |
| 2014-04-08 9:45 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Sidney Porter And THAT is my point regarding all the ICU are the best crap. They have NOT trained for it, they clearly have genetic potential, no doubt, but like my Russian Farmer (funding excluded) unless they train for the competition it's all just armchair conjecture. SO, Even if you win Kona two years from now, you can't say "Remember when I was dropping awesome 70.3 times in 2014? and you won Kona that year? Yeah, I was really better than you I just wasn't racing 140.6s." Originally posted by Left Brain You could say this about every sport. People that grew up in warm climates were never exposed to winter sports. I would be willing to say that the best male volleyball players are playing in the NBA. I can't say that someone is really the "best" just because they had the genetic potential. Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm gonna one up you with the awesome logic that's been applied above. Kona is not a real world championship because there are at least 5 people in the world that have never done a triathlon, but have spectacular genetics and if they ever start training then they will surely beat the pants off of any of the current top racers. So there, i thumb my nose at your ICU speculation garbage and say that even those guys aren't the "best" in the world because of some russian farmer that just hasn't trained yet is really the best. Just wait until he starts training. The difference is that the ITU guys can train up for the distance.....the IM guys can't train up for speed. Down the road it will be ex ITU guys who own everything. Watch and see. It's a simple formula. Not true, it's too late for your Russian farmer. The body's pathways needed for real speed are built early in life, and it passed him by. I will say this to your point. There are LOTS of young people who carry the genetics to be really fast triathletes, but they'll never get the chance because it's too expensive for them to play. ETA - don't worry about me getting sideways with comments.....I enjoy the discussion. Dude - people come along and break sportiong records all the time......so yeah, they were better but just not there yet. Triathlon is so young and there never has been a wave of really young, fast, triathletes like the one that is coming. Gomex, Brownlee, etc. are just the beginning of the flood. I easily remember the day when a 15-19 year old kid had ZERO chance of winning even a local triathlon.....it was basically unheard of. If one of these kids from any of a dozen High Performance youth teams shows up at your race it's over. I was a duathlon this weekend.....the top FIVE women overall were 13-16 years old. All of them from the same youth team. That's a new trend.....and it's growing and growing. I'm sorry that you haven't been exposed to more of this type of racing......it's not crap. ITU triathlon contains the best triathletes in the world....and a stampede is coming. No, I'm not saying it's crap, I'm saying that the concept that you are faster at a 140.6 just because you are fast at a 70.3 is crap. Breaking records is awesome, I get it, but you are only as fast as you are today. You cannot say you were the best before you are the best. This doesn't even address all the stuff that can happen to an athlete. Too many variables. all a win says is who is the best on the day of the race, who is injury free, who's bike had no issues, etc. |
| 2014-04-08 9:46 AM in reply to: Marvarnett |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Marvarnett Originally posted by Left Brain What you should have said is that everyone on the pointy end of IM would get their arse handed to them at the Olympic distance ITU level. It will always be that way.....the only difference will be the speed that is carried over to IM distance by athletes who were grown at the ITU level. If you didn't build your engine there you will be sucking wind. The future of all fast triathlon is in ITU racing. You mean the future of all fast triathlon HAS ALWAYS been ITU Racing. I believe all of the IM greats had their start in ITU. It's no different.
Really? Dave Scott? Scott Tinley? Mark Allen? ITU guys? Crowie, yeah, but the influx of ITU racers is really just starting.....I'd argue that Crowie was ahead of his time, and look what he's done.
here, this is a fun read:
http://triathlon.competitor.com/2013/09/news/dave-scott-chats-from-events-dc-nations-triathlon_83593 |
| 2014-04-08 9:48 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Subject: RE: Kona elitism. In general...the people who think the cream of the crop is racing WTC...haven't watched ITU racing. I was one of them when I first got into the sport and only knew about Kona. Do yourself a favor and watch the ITU World Cup circuit. It just started in Auckland this past weekend. Amazing stuff. |
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