General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Let's talk tires! Rss Feed  
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2014-04-10 11:24 AM

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Subject: Let's talk tires!
I'm looking at getting new tires for the upcoming season, and I'm trying to decide between two options: Splitting hairs, yes, but that's what these forums are for! Both will have latex inner tubes and be mounted to FLO 90/Disc Combo.

Conti GP4000s or Conti Force/Attack II

Discuss.


2014-04-10 11:31 AM
in reply to: pburnett

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!
4000s

The Combo pack doesn't have enough proof/data that it's "better" to not just get the 4ks
2014-04-10 12:04 PM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!

I would get the 4000S because if you look hard enough, they can be had cheaper.  I've gotten mine for as low as $33 each including shipping.  I have never seen the attack/force combo that cheap...and as already mentioned above, there isn't anything I've seen to prove that the attack/force combo is any faster.  It's possibly slower.  Add to the fact that FLO and Zipp both recommend the 23mm 4000S tire for their wider rims and I think for now the choice is pretty clear.

2014-04-10 3:27 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!

4000S for the win. Unless you race against me.

2014-04-10 6:12 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!
another 4000s vote. And damn a 90/disc combo is going to be nasty aero!!!
2014-04-10 6:42 PM
in reply to: m.a.burghart

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!
4000s


2014-04-11 6:56 AM
in reply to: EKH

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!
I was discussing this same topic with some of my hardcore roadie friends, and they brought up a really interesting point. They ride, and race, mostly on Gatorskins. Their point, and it's a decent one, is that a flat will more than kill any time gains made by switching to fast tires. They race crits on Gatorskins.

I still haven't bought a new set of tires, and I've been mulling over the risk/reward calculus for a while - odds of actually getting a flat v. time lost v. speed gained v. flat risks of Gatorskins v. 4000s . . .

Anyone have any thoughts on the subject?
2014-04-11 8:42 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!

Originally posted by mirthfuldragon I was discussing this same topic with some of my hardcore roadie friends, and they brought up a really interesting point. They ride, and race, mostly on Gatorskins. Their point, and it's a decent one, is that a flat will more than kill any time gains made by switching to fast tires. They race crits on Gatorskins. I still haven't bought a new set of tires, and I've been mulling over the risk/reward calculus for a while - odds of actually getting a flat v. time lost v. speed gained v. flat risks of Gatorskins v. 4000s . . . Anyone have any thoughts on the subject?

I train with Gatorskins but there's no way I'd ever race on them.  They have terrible aero and rolling resistance qualities when compared to something like the 4000s.  The watt savings when using 4000s vs Gatorskins is about 5 watts per wheel.  I would never give up 10 watts of free speed.

Al Morrison, who does the rolling resistance analysis for his site: biketechreview.com, has stated the time lost using Gatorskins vs 4000s is about 3-4 seconds per mile.  Doesn't sound like a lot but that's like 6-8 minutes over the course of an IM bike ride.  I can change a tube much faster than 6-8 minutes.  The shorter the distance obviously the less of a time savings vs changing a flat.

All this assumes the Gatorskin would not have flatted when the 4000s did and that's an ignorant assumption to make.  The 4000s is is a pretty stout tire in its own right.  That's why it's such an amazing tire.  It rolls great, has great aero qualities and it's a pretty durable tire.  The Gatorskin is very durable but rolls like crap and is not all that aero.  What punctures a 4000s would probably puncture a Gatorskin.  You also must remember that most flats are due to user error.  I think the statistic is something like 90% of flats are pinch flats which are caused by poor installation of the tube and tire.  A pinch flat is going to happen regardless of what tire was used.  Good luck changing a Gatorskin out on the race course if that's the case.

I don't see any reason to run the Gators vs the 4000s on the miniscule chance of enhanced puncture prevention vs the 4000s.  Especially knowing how much time is lost and the fact most flats are pinch flats.

There's also the issue of ride quality.  The 4000s is a more comfy ride than the Gators.



Edited by GMAN 19030 2014-04-11 8:45 AM
2014-04-11 11:36 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Good luck changing a Gatorskin out on the race course if that's the case.


Those Gatorskins tires are so tough to put back on! Good luck indeed changing these on the race course.

4000S ftw! :D
2014-04-11 11:50 AM
in reply to: pburnett


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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!
I'm running Schwalbe Ironman tubeless tires on my Flo 90s and Disc using Orange Sealant and Stan's rim tape.
2014-04-11 4:38 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!

Originally posted by Jason N

I would get the 4000S because if you look hard enough, they can be had cheaper.  I've gotten mine for as low as $33 each including shipping.  I have never seen the attack/force combo that cheap...and as already mentioned above, there isn't anything I've seen to prove that the attack/force combo is any faster.  It's possibly slower.  Add to the fact that FLO and Zipp both recommend the 23mm 4000S tire for their wider rims and I think for now the choice is pretty clear.

I agree, I still get pings from Amazon once in awhile for the older GP4ks cheap. 

FWIW, Jackmott posted this over in a ST thread the other day about tires, apparently on a FC303 aero wise the Attack was a bit faster at typical race yaws.  TH3FRB stated he may use the attack/force and send them to TomA for some rolling data, which would be nice to end any Crr speculation:



2014-04-11 6:13 PM
in reply to: mirthfuldragon

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!

Originally posted by mirthfuldragon I was discussing this same topic with some of my hardcore roadie friends, and they brought up a really interesting point. They ride, and race, mostly on Gatorskins. Their point, and it's a decent one, is that a flat will more than kill any time gains made by switching to fast tires. They race crits on Gatorskins. I still haven't bought a new set of tires, and I've been mulling over the risk/reward calculus for a while - odds of actually getting a flat v. time lost v. speed gained v. flat risks of Gatorskins v. 4000s . . . Anyone have any thoughts on the subject?

The counter point to that is that your slower than your potential for every race you enter....even the ones that you would have never gotten a flat in.

If flats were so common that most people got at least one flat during every race...then yes, I would understand the point being made by your roadie friends.  But the fact is that most people do not flat...even when using fast tires.  So I rather be faster and just deal with the flat if I have bad luck.

 

 

 

2014-04-11 7:04 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by mirthfuldragon I was discussing this same topic with some of my hardcore roadie friends, and they brought up a really interesting point. They ride, and race, mostly on Gatorskins. Their point, and it's a decent one, is that a flat will more than kill any time gains made by switching to fast tires. They race crits on Gatorskins. I still haven't bought a new set of tires, and I've been mulling over the risk/reward calculus for a while - odds of actually getting a flat v. time lost v. speed gained v. flat risks of Gatorskins v. 4000s . . . Anyone have any thoughts on the subject?

The counter point to that is that your slower than your potential for every race you enter....even the ones that you would have never gotten a flat in.

If flats were so common that most people got at least one flat during every race...then yes, I would understand the point being made by your roadie friends.  But the fact is that most people do not flat...even when using fast tires.  So I rather be faster and just deal with the flat if I have bad luck.

 

Funny, I ride with a roadie that uses nothing but Gatorskins.  Over the past year he's flatted twice with me riding along with him, myself zero flats on the GP4000s!

If the race is that important to you and need more safety margin for piece of mind then use Bontrager TRL sealant in the latex tube.  Doesn't hurt Crr and seemed to work pretty well in the somewhat controlled ST testing.

2014-04-11 7:51 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!

Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by mirthfuldragon I was discussing this same topic with some of my hardcore roadie friends, and they brought up a really interesting point. They ride, and race, mostly on Gatorskins. Their point, and it's a decent one, is that a flat will more than kill any time gains made by switching to fast tires. They race crits on Gatorskins. I still haven't bought a new set of tires, and I've been mulling over the risk/reward calculus for a while - odds of actually getting a flat v. time lost v. speed gained v. flat risks of Gatorskins v. 4000s . . . Anyone have any thoughts on the subject?

The counter point to that is that your slower than your potential for every race you enter....even the ones that you would have never gotten a flat in.

If flats were so common that most people got at least one flat during every race...then yes, I would understand the point being made by your roadie friends.  But the fact is that most people do not flat...even when using fast tires.  So I rather be faster and just deal with the flat if I have bad luck.

 

Funny, I ride with a roadie that uses nothing but Gatorskins.  Over the past year he's flatted twice with me riding along with him, myself zero flats on the GP4000s!

If the race is that important to you and need more safety margin for piece of mind then use Bontrager TRL sealant in the latex tube.  Doesn't hurt Crr and seemed to work pretty well in the somewhat controlled ST testing.

I train with gatorskins and have flatted about 7 times in the past 6 months.  I ride a lot though, and commute on some pretty crappy roads.  About 5 of those flats were in a 4 week span when it rained a lot and glass had an easier time sticking to the tire.

Gatorskins do help...but they are not a 100% solution to flats.



Edited by Jason N 2014-04-11 7:52 PM
2014-04-11 10:18 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Let's talk tires!
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by Jason N

I would get the 4000S because if you look hard enough, they can be had cheaper.  I've gotten mine for as low as $33 each including shipping.  I have never seen the attack/force combo that cheap...and as already mentioned above, there isn't anything I've seen to prove that the attack/force combo is any faster.  It's possibly slower.  Add to the fact that FLO and Zipp both recommend the 23mm 4000S tire for their wider rims and I think for now the choice is pretty clear.

I agree, I still get pings from Amazon once in awhile for the older GP4ks cheap. 

FWIW, Jackmott posted this over in a ST thread the other day about tires, apparently on a FC303 aero wise the Attack was a bit faster at typical race yaws.  TH3FRB stated he may use the attack/force and send them to TomA for some rolling data, which would be nice to end any Crr speculation:




Thats the data that was making me wonder. They are basically the same tire, but that wind tunnel data, plus the attack "should" have a lower CRR (less rubber) than the GP4000s.

Racing on Gatorskins! No thanks!

Good to see a nice discussion though!
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