Oly race speed = Long ride speed (Page 3)
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2014-06-11 7:32 PM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed If you have zones and your garmin, even better! How much time in each of zones 1 to 5? ETA. - as for a typical training week, it shouldn't always be the same but if you ride for 4 hours and it's all easy, then likely your training load is too low to see improvements. Shane Edited by gsmacleod 2014-06-11 7:34 PM |
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2014-06-11 7:34 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed He'll give you information that he thinks you need which will probably include some of both. Since it feels like you're being picked on from all angles, it might help to simplify who you're listening too. That is one guy you do want to pay attention to when he shows up. What he's asking can very well help in figuring out how to get more out of the training you put in and also why your speeds seem kind of flat for the effort put in. I'm also curious about spending time in aero. Any idea how much and has it included harder efforts? |
2014-06-11 8:06 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by gsmacleod If you have zones and your garmin, even better! How much time in each of zones 1 to 5? ETA. - as for a typical training week, it shouldn't always be the same but if you ride for 4 hours and it's all easy, then likely your training load is too low to see improvements. Shane Shane, it's not showing me those specific things. Did a search and apparently that's not available in garmin connect... Eyeballing it tells me that I spend >3 hours upper z1 1 hour z2-3 Mere minutes in z4 No time in z5, but I'm not sure how that can be because my z5 would be >188 and I know I do that on occassion, though not for "minutes" theres usually a hill involved when it happens. It's been mny miles since I tested (I used sufferfest rubber glove), should I do it again, and if so when? How (taper, etc)? |
2014-06-11 8:12 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Btw, I don't think I could actually hold my FTP for an hour unless I shift to a very low gear and just pedal away at 110rpms. It's not the lungs that really start hurting, it's my legs, does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm explaining it right. |
2014-06-11 10:58 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
265 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by gsmacleod If you have zones and your garmin, even better! How much time in each of zones 1 to 5? ETA. - as for a typical training week, it shouldn't always be the same but if you ride for 4 hours and it's all easy, then likely your training load is too low to see improvements. Shane Shane, it's not showing me those specific things. Did a search and apparently that's not available in garmin connect... Eyeballing it tells me that I spend >3 hours upper z1 1 hour z2-3 Mere minutes in z4 No time in z5, but I'm not sure how that can be because my z5 would be >188 and I know I do that on occassion, though not for "minutes" theres usually a hill involved when it happens. It's been mny miles since I tested (I used sufferfest rubber glove), should I do it again, and if so when? How (taper, etc)? If you're saying you've pedaled so hard and given it all you've got in the tank on some of these rides then either THAT is not true or you're HR zones are off. Spinning in a recovery endurance zone1-2 will not make you faster. And regardless of your "smoking gun" you are looking for physics does not support your statement that regardless of effort your speed is the same. |
2014-06-12 7:46 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 Shane, it's not showing me those specific things. Did a search and apparently that's not available in garmin connect... Eyeballing it tells me that I spend >3 hours upper z1 1 hour z2-3 Mere minutes in z4 No time in z5, but I'm not sure how that can be because my z5 would be >188 and I know I do that on occassion, though not for "minutes" theres usually a hill involved when it happens. It's been mny miles since I tested (I used sufferfest rubber glove), should I do it again, and if so when? How (taper, etc)? Assuming your zones are properly determined, you are not riding hard enough when you are on the bike - training load is the result of duration and intensity and since your duration is limited (like most athletes) you need to increase the intensity. If you are focused on short course, pretty much every ride should involve riding in either z4 or z5 for portions of the ride and time in z2 should be warmup, cooldown and recovery between harder periods. If you are focus on HIM, then at this point some z4 and lots of z3 is what you would be looking for while IM would see some z4, probably some z3 and lots of z2. Table 1 and 2 here are good resources to see what the training response is for various efforts: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels Shane |
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2014-06-12 8:19 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Ok. I'm double checking the information on Garmin Connect and in my watch. My zones are entered into my watch do not match what i see when I look at the chart on garmin connect that shows zones. Perhaps I'm not reading it right. I'm currently trying to share my long workout so you can see it. I think it looks like I'm actually in z2 for most of it, but z3 for the last part. The new Garmin Connect doesn't like my iPad and keeps crashing my browser... Grrr. Here are the zones as I have them on my sufferfest chart (and what I entered into my watch) Z1 98-121 Z2 121-148 Z3 148-167 Z4 167-187 Z5 187-220 FTP 178 |
2014-06-12 8:25 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Shane (or anybody who's still around) see if this works: This is my long ride from Sunday: http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/517123387 If it does, I'll also post my shorter ride from earlier last week that was 15 miles and greater RPE. |
2014-06-12 8:41 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed When I do a shorter workout, this is about the intensity that I use: http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/517123258 Again, let me know if those links do or do not work. |
2014-06-12 10:23 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Expert 3126 Boise, ID | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed
Sounds to me like the "aggressive" tri fit on a road bike is part of the problem. I personally could not make the hybrid thing work, hip angle was too closed off and I couldn't create power while in the clip ons. But also if your previous post about zones is correct, you just aren't riding hard enough. I started riding with a group last year, they took me out, blew me up in the first 30 minutes and then dropped me like a bad habit. I had previously thought I was a good cyclists, not even close. I worked hard last year and finally got to where I could at least hold on for a ride. This year has been a compromise. I am in IM training so I try to keep my effort a bit lower than last year. I get dropped a bit on the hills this summer but I am able to catch back up. I have a riding buddy that is very close to the same riding ability as I am. He has been training hills and sprints this year so yes he can beat me up a hill and can take me on a sprint. However when he and I go for 100 mile rides he is out of gas long before I am. I was able to hold 18.2 mph average over 115 miles last weekend, I could have never thought of doing that 2 years ago. The intensity of the group ride has made me a much better cyclist overall. When you get accustomed to being put in the hurt locker on a regular basis, it makes your steady effort faster overall. When a hard effort is 25+mph, the holding 17-18 for a long time becomes much easier. So my advice would be to either figure out some interval training. Or go get beat up by some cyclists that are much better than you. Best way to get better at any sport is to find someone better than you and try to keep up.
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2014-06-12 1:33 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Ok...so what am I missing here. One ride you did at an avg HR of 162 and averaged 19.0 mph. The other ride you did at an avg HR of 144 and averaged 17.6 mph. You rode harder, you went faster. Or were you expecting to go something like 21 mph given the additional 16 bpm on average. If you are looking at the shorter ride, it seems like the first 28 minutes or so you are averaging 160ish HR but only going around 17-18 mph, but it also seems like you are going East into a headwind because as soon as you turn around and head back West, you're averaging between 21-25 mph at the same HR.
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2014-06-12 1:59 PM in reply to: Aarondb4 |
Veteran 721 Naptown, IN | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Aarondb4 >So my advice would be to either figure out some interval training. Or go get beat up by some cyclists that are much better than you. Best way to get better at any sport is to find someone better than you and try to keep up.
X2 I was just getting ready type something similar to this. I've only been doing triathlons for 5 years, but I've been racing road and mountain bikes since 1985. The single best piece of advice I can give you is if you want to ride faster, then you need to ride with people faster than you. Find out when/where the local cycling teams (or clubs) do their training rides and join up with them. Let them know you're new to group riding (if you are) and stay off your aero bars during the ride. You might also want to find out if the ride has a predetermined agenda. For example, our team rides steady effort on Mondays, race simulations on Tuesdays (think interval training), recovery no-drop rides on Wednesdays, and Thursdays vary depending on the race schedule. Also make sure you know the route or the area in case you get dropped. |
2014-06-12 3:33 PM in reply to: thebigb |
Member 622 Franklin, TN | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by thebigb Originally posted by Danno77 A 2010 Trek Madone 5.2 it has a compact and also aero bars. I got my fitting with the aero bars on it, and it's a slightly aggressive fit compared to what ive seen around for a road bike with bars. My back is probably horizontal when in aero. My seat is too far back in my opinion, but I tried shifting everything forward and control became an issue. There are times when I can pull forward on the nose of the seat, but if I try to grip forward on the aero bars that's when things get wobbly. If I ride the nose and hold the bars where I feel most comfortable, I actually hit my knees on my elbows. I never ever get sore from the bike, aside from the first few rides outside in aero when my neck has to build up muscles that I lost indoors (I must look down quite a bit more than I think when on the trainer.) I'm no expert (and I hate Holiday Inn) but maybe your fit is entirely too aggressive given you're on a road bike. Super compacted, closed up hip angle, can't put out any power. Maybe try pulling off the clip ons, getting a road fit and seeing what happens. Then you can introduce the clip ons again later. ^^This is exactly what I was thinking. I'm guessing a closed hip angle could be the smoking gun. |
2014-06-13 6:52 AM in reply to: Jason N |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Jason N Ok...so what am I missing here. One ride you did at an avg HR of 162 and averaged 19.0 mph. The other ride you did at an avg HR of 144 and averaged 17.6 mph. You rode harder, you went faster. Or were you expecting to go something like 21 mph given the additional 16 bpm on average. If you are looking at the shorter ride, it seems like the first 28 minutes or so you are averaging 160ish HR but only going around 17-18 mph, but it also seems like you are going East into a headwind because as soon as you turn around and head back West, you're averaging between 21-25 mph at the same HR.
Agreed; I certainly see different speeds for different efforts in those files. While it's not always the case, as Jason points out, it is very likely due to a headwind/tailwind confounding things a bit. Again, assuming zones are properly determined, here's what I would try based on a HIM focus: More than 12 weeks out VO2max - 10-20 minutes warmup, 5:00 steady build to low zone 4, 5:00 z2, 5x3:00 hard (build to z5), 2:00 z2, 5:00 z2, 10-20 minutes steady in high z3/low z4, 10-20 minutes cooldown Threshold - 10-20 minutes, 5x30s hard, 30s easy, 5:00 z2, 5x5:00 moderately hard (build to z4), 2:00 z2 between, 5:00 easy, 10x10s all out, 50s easy, 10-20 minutes cooldown Long - 3-4 hours including at least 60 minutes total riding in high z3/low z4 and can also include some 30s hard/30s easy and/or 5-10 minutes steady in z4 Within 12 weeks Threshold - 10-20 minutes wu, 5x30s hard, 30s easy, 5:00 z2, 2x20 minutes build to z4 in first 5 minutes then steady, 5:00 z2 between, 5x30s hard, 30s easy, 10-20 minutes cd Sweet spot - 10-20 minutes wu, 60 minutes total riding in high z3/low z4 Long - 3-4 hour with significant chunks of time locked into the aero position riding in low to mid z3. If you have hills and/or wind in your race, ride a similar course and/or include efforts of high z3/low z4 and then return right back to low/mid z3 Shane |
2014-06-13 7:36 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Jason N Ok...so what am I missing here. One ride you did at an avg HR of 162 and averaged 19.0 mph. The other ride you did at an avg HR of 144 and averaged 17.6 mph. You rode harder, you went faster. Or were you expecting to go something like 21 mph given the additional 16 bpm on average. If you are looking at the shorter ride, it seems like the first 28 minutes or so you are averaging 160ish HR but only going around 17-18 mph, but it also seems like you are going East into a headwind because as soon as you turn around and head back West, you're averaging between 21-25 mph at the same HR.
Agreed; I certainly see different speeds for different efforts in those files. While it's not always the case, as Jason points out, it is very likely due to a headwind/tailwind confounding things a bit. Again, assuming zones are properly determined, here's what I would try based on a HIM focus: More than 12 weeks out VO2max - 10-20 minutes warmup, 5:00 steady build to low zone 4, 5:00 z2, 5x3:00 hard (build to z5), 2:00 z2, 5:00 z2, 10-20 minutes steady in high z3/low z4, 10-20 minutes cooldown Threshold - 10-20 minutes, 5x30s hard, 30s easy, 5:00 z2, 5x5:00 moderately hard (build to z4), 2:00 z2 between, 5:00 easy, 10x10s all out, 50s easy, 10-20 minutes cooldown Long - 3-4 hours including at least 60 minutes total riding in high z3/low z4 and can also include some 30s hard/30s easy and/or 5-10 minutes steady in z4 Within 12 weeks Threshold - 10-20 minutes wu, 5x30s hard, 30s easy, 5:00 z2, 2x20 minutes build to z4 in first 5 minutes then steady, 5:00 z2 between, 5x30s hard, 30s easy, 10-20 minutes cd Sweet spot - 10-20 minutes wu, 60 minutes total riding in high z3/low z4 Long - 3-4 hour with significant chunks of time locked into the aero position riding in low to mid z3. If you have hills and/or wind in your race, ride a similar course and/or include efforts of high z3/low z4 and then return right back to low/mid z3 Shane Thanks Shane. When you say "build to zX" what should that look like? Also, I have a sprint in two weeks, any advice between now an then? |
2014-06-13 10:36 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed I'd have to say that yes, you could've probably gone harder on race day. Some of us have a built in mental sensor that says we can only go 'x' speed, when we can go faster. For me its running. How long where your chain stops? That probably zapped a few tenths off your speed. For myself, I'm a good 1.5-2 mph faster doing an oly than my long day speed on a similar style course, and still had a good run. So assuming all things are equal(weather, terrain) you should be much faster than that racing 24 miles compared to an easy going 60 miles. |
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2014-06-13 10:41 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by gsmacleod I'm not insinuating anything; I'm saying that, assuming similar course and not just a bad day, the swim (pacing and/or fitness) is taking more out of you than you think. Further, a race swim right before a bike is going to impact your ride much more than an easy 9 mile run and 35 mile ride bike the day before. Perhaps it's just a bad day but, if courses and conditions are similar, then at race efforts you should be riding significantly faster than your easy long ride. Shane I second this as well...there seem to be very little differences between your conditions going in, and a 1500 meter swim in a race is very likely to amp your heart rate up like you mentioned. It's not necessarily saying that your swim fitness is poor, but a race swim will jack your heart rate up |
2014-06-13 12:25 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 Also, I have a sprint in two weeks, any advice between now an then? Two weeks may not be enough to make a huge difference, but I still suggest swimming more. It looks like you clearly can go faster on shorter, hard riding days than long ones (didn't look at those files, but trust those that did and just noticed your 5k post where you said you were just under 17mph for a long ride and then 19+ for a short one a few days later). So, aside from conditions and terrain, the only (physical) reason you would not be able to exceed your long ride pace in a shorter race is that the swim is taking more out of you than you think. Certainly work on varying your riding intensities as Shane suggests (and spending more time at harder intensities if you are able), but to realize the full benefit of that work you need to get out of the water in good shape--so need to work on fitness there, too. |
2014-06-13 1:10 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Jason N Thanks Shane. When you say "build to zX" what should that look like? Also, I have a sprint in two weeks, any advice between now an then? What I see in a statement like that is since HR has a delayed reaction, try your best to keep the effort consistent and allow HR to ramp up early in the interval and then (mostly) level off. If you had a direct output (like power) it would be really flat the whole interval, but HR has the delayed reaction to such an output and takes time to get there. So "build" would be allowing for this to occur instead of having someone smash themselves right away to jump HR up more immediately. And between now and then, I'd consider working a little more on swimming as Johnny said for one thing. It might not do much now, but blending short and longer term goals as I'd guess you have more events coming later in the year too. Then also look at the workouts. Try to get in some of the threshold and VO2 work Shane wrote on. Learn how work them. I find that when I'm not executing things like this well, or not doing them at all, I get a bit flat. Like what you've described throughout this thread in that everything feels harder, but not really having the results to show for it. Closer to a race (like the week of) I'll still get in a couple decent workouts, but not for as long. So do reach the intensity you're supposed to, but do fewer of the intervals so that you don't fatigue yourself so much. |
2014-07-07 10:15 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by gsmacleod VO2max - 10-20 minutes warmup, 5:00 steady build to low zone 4, 5:00 z2, 5x3:00 hard (build to z5), 2:00 z2, 5:00 z2, 10-20 minutes steady in high z3/low z4, 10-20 minutes cooldown Threshold - 10-20 minutes, 5x30s hard, 30s easy, 5:00 z2, 5x5:00 moderately hard (build to z4), 2:00 z2 between, 5:00 easy, 10x10s all out, 50s easy, 10-20 minutes cooldown Long - 3-4 hours including at least 60 minutes total riding in high z3/low Shane, as my plan grows what is a good way to follow with these sets? More sets of the z5? (on the vo2max) what about on the threshold? |
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