Oly race speed = Long ride speed
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2014-06-10 7:19 PM |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: Oly race speed = Long ride speed May 18th I did an Oly race and averaged 17.7mph. (properly tapered and after a swim) June 8th I rode 60 miles and averaged 17.6mph (ran 9 miles day before) I could have pushed a little harder on race, and had to fix my chain twice on a hill. The long ride was easy peasy effort, admittedly tougher towards the end just because of the distance, but I certainly wasn't killing myself to do that. What gives? Do I only have one speed? (slow) (p.s. today I did a 14 mile ride that was hillier than normal and pushed as hard as I could and averaged 17.9) |
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2014-06-10 7:45 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
239 | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed I can't answer but can commiserate. I seem to have a very similar issue and am anxious to see what the masses have to say. |
2014-06-10 7:52 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
Regular 585 Pueblo, Colorado | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 What gives? Do I only have one speed? (slow) (p.s. today I did a 14 mile ride that was hillier than normal and pushed as hard as I could and averaged 17.9) This was my experience for the first couple of years of doing triathlon. I would do only slightly better during a race compared to training, but I always had plenty left for the run. Last summer I started riding (a lot) more and started including more interval work, etc. Since then I've seen an improvement in my speed. |
2014-06-10 8:45 PM in reply to: tedjohn |
1055 | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed If 17 on your long ride was easy, how did it feel during your race? How much of your training do you do each week and what does it look like in terms of intensity? |
2014-06-10 9:01 PM in reply to: ziggie204 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by ziggie204 If 17 on your long ride was easy, how did it feel during your race? How much of your training do you do each week and what does it look like in terms of intensity? With regards to intensity, I can add this data: The race average HR was 169, the long ride was avg HR of 144. I'm not sure I can give you a straight answer regarding cycling training. My logs are 100% complete except for maybe yesterday's and today's workouts. I'd appreciate input, even though i know it can be painstaking to look at the details. Really, I know that my cycling has been inconsistent since about mid May, but not necessarily poor training. I have lacked intense rides until recently, and I think I've noticed some issues with cadence lately. I swear that indoor training did some sort of awesome cadence reset, and then that really helped for most of the early spring, but it's like I need some sort of cadence retraining, lol. |
2014-06-10 9:49 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed How is your swimming and how did you feel coming out of the water? How did the course compare to where you train? Does the bike time include T1 and/or T2? Shane |
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2014-06-10 9:55 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by gsmacleod How is your swimming and how did you feel coming out of the water? How did the course compare to where you train? Does the bike time include T1 and/or T2? Shane Swim on race day went well. Kinda dogged it, so felt strong after leaving the water. Both my long ride and the Oly course have a few hills (long ride has at least two times as many, so it works out). I'd say they are commensurate with difficulty. No T1/T2 in the speeds listed. |
2014-06-10 10:28 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed How long to fix your chain? If it wasn't long, then I would guess you either had an equipment issue (brake rubbing, tire pressure issue, etc) or that while you are swimming easy, it is taking way more out of you than you think. Also, how does your race day bike setup compare to training setup? That should be worth at least a small speed increase itself. Shane |
2014-06-10 10:39 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by gsmacleod How long to fix your chain? If it wasn't long, then I would guess you either had an equipment issue (brake rubbing, tire pressure issue, etc) or that while you are swimming easy, it is taking way more out of you than you think. Also, how does your race day bike setup compare to training setup? That should be worth at least a small speed increase itself. Shane Easy fix, probably 30 seconds, but the cost was more stopping on an uphill. I'm not sure what you mean by training and race setups. Absolutely no difference other than I carry more fluids and nutrition (and cell phone) on the long ride. Tire pressure is always checked before my rides/races (105ish psi). I should mention that these speeds seem to be the norm, neither was flukish. I have had random speeds that varied, really slow that I attributed to previous workouts or nutrition, and really fast (for me - >18) that I could not explain. |
2014-06-10 10:47 PM in reply to: Danno77 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Training versus racing setup I would expect at least include going from jersey and shorts to a trisuit? Beyond that, here's what I would do: Swim more, mostly hard, sometimes easy Ride more, mostly, sometimes easy The high HR for speed, all else being equal, would say that you were quite fatigued on the bike compared to your long rides, very likely due to swim fitness pacing. Once that is addressed, then having better bike fitness should allow you to ride faster on race day. Shane |
2014-06-10 10:54 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed So you're insinuating that my swim fitness is so poor that it basically impacts my cycling more than running 9 miles the day before and adding an extra 35 miles of cycling? I'm having a hard time swallowing that. I do not dispute that I need better swim fitness or bike fitness (or running fitness), so I appreciate the advice. I just don't understand. |
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2014-06-11 5:52 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 I think I've noticed some issues with cadence lately. I swear that indoor training did some sort of awesome cadence reset, and then that really helped for most of the early spring, but it's like I need some sort of cadence retraining, lol. What do you mean by this exactly? How do you pace your rides? By cadence, speed, RPE? Unless you're riding identical courses in identical conditions, then speed may not be the best way to compare your performance. Mark
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2014-06-11 6:14 AM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 14571 the alamo city, Texas | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 So you're insinuating that my swim fitness is so poor that it basically impacts my cycling more than running 9 miles the day before and adding an extra 35 miles of cycling? I'm having a hard time swallowing that. I do not dispute that I need better swim fitness or bike fitness (or running fitness), so I appreciate the advice. I just don't understand. nm Edited by mehaner 2014-06-11 6:15 AM |
2014-06-11 7:08 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed I'm not insinuating anything; I'm saying that, assuming similar course and not just a bad day, the swim (pacing and/or fitness) is taking more out of you than you think. Further, a race swim right before a bike is going to impact your ride much more than an easy 9 mile run and 35 mile ride bike the day before. Perhaps it's just a bad day but, if courses and conditions are similar, then at race efforts you should be riding significantly faster than your easy long ride. Shane |
2014-06-11 7:44 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
72 | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Well, obviously ya' gotta' go for a full Ironman where you'll average >17MPH based on your trend which is pretty good. |
2014-06-11 7:55 AM in reply to: RedCorvette |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by RedCorvette Originally posted by Danno77 I think I've noticed some issues with cadence lately. I swear that indoor training did some sort of awesome cadence reset, and then that really helped for most of the early spring, but it's like I need some sort of cadence retraining, lol. What do you mean by this exactly? How do you pace your rides? By cadence, speed, RPE? Unless you're riding identical courses in identical conditions, then speed may not be the best way to compare your performance. Mark
I pace generally by HR, but I like to keep my cadence above 90. That used to be something I didn't really monitor, it just happened, but lately I'll look down and see that I've slipped down to low 80s and not even have noticed it, or sometimes I'm just buzzing along at 110. |
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2014-06-11 7:57 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by gsmacleod Perhaps it's just a bad day I think we all have had that happen to us at one time or another. Stuff happens sometimes. I did a race two years ago when I thought I was well prepared and then my bike pace was super slow - even stopped midway to see if I had a brake dragging or some other mechanical problem. Just didn't have it that day. I've also had races where the opposite happened and I did much better than I expected, for no obvious reason.
Mark |
2014-06-11 8:04 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
New user 25 | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed I have noticed a similar phenomenon with my training / racing. I could admittedly ride my bike more but I generally have a reasonable variation in bike workouts (sufferfest intervals mixed with longer z2 rides). I generally train by HR / RPE and after a recent LT test on my trainer determined my LT to be 150 bpm (I ride between 85-90 rpm). I generally race by RPE and for the same or slightly higher RPE in a recent sprint race I peaked at my HR and saw ~170bpm. I ignored the elevated HR and kept hammering. Then I proceeded to have a 5k PR on the run (this includes open 5ks). Really makes me question my effort level...am I really working as hard as I think I am on the bike? Is my HR just elevated due to race or other factors (swim fitness, etc.)? |
2014-06-11 8:12 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by RedCorvette I pace generally by HR, but I like to keep my cadence above 90. That used to be something I didn't really monitor, it just happened, but lately I'll look down and see that I've slipped down to low 80s and not even have noticed it, or sometimes I'm just buzzing along at 110. Originally posted by Danno77 I think I've noticed some issues with cadence lately. I swear that indoor training did some sort of awesome cadence reset, and then that really helped for most of the early spring, but it's like I need some sort of cadence retraining, lol. What do you mean by this exactly? How do you pace your rides? By cadence, speed, RPE? Unless you're riding identical courses in identical conditions, then speed may not be the best way to compare your performance. Mark
Personally, I've not been successful when I tried to pace myself by HR in a race. I still track and record my HR data, but now ride primarily by a combination of cadence & RPE. I'll ride at 80-85 most of the time on long training rides, with hard intervals a bit higher at 90-95. I usually don't get over 100 unless I'm sprinting. In races, I try to meter my effort on the bike so I still have enough left on the run. That's usually a cadence in the range of 85-90 for me. I'm a poor runner, so if anything I'll push a bit harder on the bike since that seems to help my overall race performance more as opposed to holding back too much on the bike and hoping for a miracle on the run. Mark |
2014-06-11 8:23 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 May 18th I did an Oly race and averaged 17.7mph. (properly tapered and after a swim) June 8th I rode 60 miles and averaged 17.6mph (ran 9 miles day before) I could have pushed a little harder on race, and had to fix my chain twice on a hill. The long ride was easy peasy effort, admittedly tougher towards the end just because of the distance, but I certainly wasn't killing myself to do that. What gives? Do I only have one speed? (slow) (p.s. today I did a 14 mile ride that was hillier than normal and pushed as hard as I could and averaged 17.9) If your logs are current, you need more volume. Both in the bike and definitely the swim. Do have any intervals in your rides? |
2014-06-11 8:30 AM in reply to: swimbikerun81 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by swimbikerun81 Really makes me question my effort level...am I really working as hard as I think I am on the bike? Is my HR just elevated due to race or other factors (swim fitness, etc.)? For most triathletes, unless you've spent some time training with power, the answer to this is almost always no. On the flats, descents, tailwind - most athletes should be riding harder (for the hard segments of their training) On the hills and headwinds - most athletes should back off (a lot!) Shane |
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2014-06-11 8:36 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by gsmacleod I'm not insinuating anything; I'm saying that, assuming similar course and not just a bad day, the swim (pacing and/or fitness) is taking more out of you than you think. Further, a race swim right before a bike is going to impact your ride much more than an easy 9 mile run and 35 mile ride bike the day before. Perhaps it's just a bad day but, if courses and conditions are similar, then at race efforts you should be riding significantly faster than your easy long ride. Shane To add a bit, it's not necessary to be exhausted from the swim for it to have an effect on the other parts of the race. I think many underestimate this, an oly swim is often harder than thought. I've felt better in a sprint duathlon bike after running 20 min just under threshold vs a similar bike in a sprint tri after a 14 min swim that was fairly easy effort. The timing also matters a lot too. Even 20-30 minutes later can make things quite a bit easier to do in the second activity, let alone a full day before, as compared to going at it immediately. Other things like wind can be hard to judge as well. Did the same Oly 2 years in a row. Same setup and route both times. Rode ~5 watts higher the second time, but was near 4 minutes slower with what seemed like only a little more wind. The direction and speed of it at various places along the course just made a significant difference. It was blocked where it would have helped us and felt it fully when going into it due to tree coverage. Times were down across the board. Edited by brigby1 2014-06-11 8:37 AM |
2014-06-11 10:10 AM in reply to: msteiner |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by msteiner Originally posted by Danno77 May 18th I did an Oly race and averaged 17.7mph. (properly tapered and after a swim) June 8th I rode 60 miles and averaged 17.6mph (ran 9 miles day before) I could have pushed a little harder on race, and had to fix my chain twice on a hill. The long ride was easy peasy effort, admittedly tougher towards the end just because of the distance, but I certainly wasn't killing myself to do that. What gives? Do I only have one speed? (slow) (p.s. today I did a 14 mile ride that was hillier than normal and pushed as hard as I could and averaged 17.9) If your logs are current, you need more volume. Both in the bike and definitely the swim. Do have any intervals in your rides? I'm struggling with the swim. I was swimming thousands of yards a week and then somebody told me that was not the way to get faster (even though I was getting faster) so I started doing 100s and 50s, etc. and now I can't swim more than like 600 yards without being completely exhausted. I was enjoying swimming. I hate it again. And I'm not getting faster, i actually think im getting slower. I know I need to swim more. I'm not sure what to do about bike volume. I rode something like 5 hours last week, what should my volume be? Training for a HIM in October. Besides, if I increase volume, then what will happen? Will my sprint speed be 18.2 and my Oly speed be 18.1 and my HIM speed be 18.0? I know people are saying the swim takes it out of you. I get that, I really do, but why do all of my rides come out so slow, swim or not, long or short? I'm telling you that these were specific examples that represent a pattern. Maybe I'm seeing a pattern that's not there... P.s. forgot to mention that the day before I did that long ride I also rode a little over 12 miles before I did that 9 mile run. |
2014-06-11 10:24 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed Originally posted by Danno77 I'm struggling with the swim. I was swimming thousands of yards a week and then somebody told me that was not the way to get faster (even though I was getting faster) so I started doing 100s and 50s, etc. and now I can't swim more than like 600 yards without being completely exhausted. I was enjoying swimming. I hate it again. And I'm not getting faster, i actually think im getting slower. I know I need to swim more. Pointing out the obvious, the Olympic swim is over twice the bolded amount. Whoever told you to swim less gave you horrible advice. I try to get 10km in a week, and I feel like that's not enough swimming. I'm not sure what to do about bike volume. I rode something like 5 hours last week, what should my volume be? Training for a HIM in October. Besides, if I increase volume, then what will happen? Will my sprint speed be 18.2 and my Oly speed be 18.1 and my HIM speed be 18.0? I know people are saying the swim takes it out of you. I get that, I really do, but why do all of my rides come out so slow, swim or not, long or short? I'm telling you that these were specific examples that represent a pattern. Maybe I'm seeing a pattern that's not there... P.s. forgot to mention that the day before I did that long ride I also rode a little over 12 miles before I did that 9 mile run. 5 hours a week on the bike is ok. You had several 3 hourish weeks before that though. A few weeks of 3 rides a week with one having short intervals (several intervals 1,3, or 5 mins HARD), one having more threshold efforts (2x10-20min @ race pace), and one longer easier, ride should net you some improved bike fitness. You can do 1:15, 1:15, 2:30 for these rides as a skeleton to which you can build or move around depending on your workouts. All that will be for naught if you enter T1 tired, however. Edited by msteiner 2014-06-11 10:26 AM |
2014-06-11 10:30 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Subject: RE: Oly race speed = Long ride speed I agree with Shane that the swim can take a lot more energy than most people think. Especially an Oly swim. That's almost the same distance as a HIM swim and it's pretty hard to ride really hard for an hour right after it unless you have good swim fitness. With a HIM, you can sort of let your HR settle for 15-20 minutes before settling into your effort. With an Oly, you're pushing the effort basically the whole race and your performance will suffer if you are not prepared for it. That said, I still think there are other factors involved. 1. Was the avg speed from your race off your computer or from the race results? If it was off your computer, are you sure you started and stopped your timer properly not adding time to drop your avg speed? Or if it was from the race results, are you sure the course wasn't long...again...thus dropping your avg speed? Maybe you actually averaged 19ish mph but something is causing you to think you averaged 17.7. 2. Even if the courses are similar in profile, wind and road surface can play a big factor. If the race course had a lot of wind and poor roads in comparison to your training ride...that can make a big difference. 3. Did you get any draft benefit on your training ride? Riding with a group or a friend? 4. Losing 1 minute by dropping your chain twice could be closer to 90 seconds lost when you consider you have to decelerate, and reaccelerate. 90 seconds over the course of an Oly, at your approximate speed, is almost 0.5 mph...so really your race was closer to 18.1-18.2 mph.
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