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I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick
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| General Discussion | Triathlon Talk » I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick | Rss Feed  |
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 2014-07-01 9:25 PM |
Member  49  Bossier City |  Subject: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kickI have always swam without much of a kick, even when I was a kid and first learning to swim I really was just swimming with my upper body. I have been trying to work on my swim as a whole including trying to develop some sort of kick. When I was in the pool the other day I decide to try some kick drills. I literally stayed in one spot kicking for over a minute. At one point I even felt like I was moving backwards. Am I a mutant or is there a way for me to develop a kick? |
| 2014-07-01 9:37 PM in reply to: WaltRitchie |
Veteran 379 | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick ha ha! that happens to me too!! I end up paddling a little with my hand just to get moving. but also watched a youtube coaching video on how to hold the board. now I at least go forward - and it makes my thighs burn, which I find odd because i'm pretty decent runner, but that kicking - there are mutants among us. and that's ok. you are supposed to save your legs for the bike and run anyway (I tell myself) |
| 2014-07-01 9:47 PM in reply to: sheesleeva |
Master 3888   Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick With a kick board I pretty much stay in one place as you describe. If I kick on my back I can move OK. If I put one arm forward and kick on my side I can move pretty well also It's just when I'm on my belly holding the kick board I can't go anywhere. I don't stress over it. I'll put on the fins during masters kick sets just to keep up. 80% of your swim improvements can come from your underwater pull. Look up Sheila T's Swim Speed Secrets. Works wonders if you do the drills, workouts etc. With my terrible kick my last HIM and Oly swim paces were 1:25/100 yards. That of course doesn't mean you can't improve you swimming by improving you kick/doing kick drills. I have chosen not to put emphasis on it. |
| 2014-07-01 9:53 PM in reply to: WaltRitchie |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick You have poor ankle flexibility and kick with dorsiflexed feet. FINIS Rack: Improve Kick Efficiency by Increasing…: http://youtu.be/EGVK7HC_GsM |
| 2014-07-01 9:53 PM in reply to: WaltRitchie |
Master 2094 | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick I had or may have the same issue. I hired a swim coach and she was very aggressive about teaching me to kick. She watched my form underwater and said it looked good but felt the main issue was lack of flexibility in my ankle and my toes were not pointed. She had me sit on my heels to increase ankle flexibility and use Zoomer fins, the blue ones. My kick is better but in general I don't kick much. If I have to do kick sets in a group, I usually put on the Zoomers so I don't hold anyone up or try to get an empty lane and suffer. FWIW I have a friend who is an elite swimmer turned triathlete. He also has a terrible kick but it doesn't seem to hurt his times |
| 2014-07-01 11:32 PM in reply to: WaltRitchie |
Master 1929 Midlothian, VA | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Swimming backwards. It's a real thing. We need a support group. I cruise like a missile (comparably) when I use a pull buoy and do just arms...
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| 2014-07-02 6:43 AM in reply to: WaltRitchie |
Extreme Veteran 933 Connecticut | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Fins will help increase flexibility and teach your legs the right way to kick. It doesn't happen from the knees, it's the whole leg, and it starts at the hip. As painful as it may be, you need to mix in some 200 yard sets of pure kicking with a board. Don't rely on the fins exclusively, but they will help. It's like anything else, it won't come immediately, it takes time. Several weeks, possibly. But it's an investment in your stroke that will pay enormous dividends. Please don't become another member of the 'kicking is pointless, why bother' club. There's too many members as it is! |
| 2014-07-02 7:37 AM in reply to: reecealan |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Originally posted by reecealan With a kick board I pretty much stay in one place as you describe. If I kick on my back I can move OK. If I put one arm forward and kick on my side I can move pretty well also It's just when I'm on my belly holding the kick board I can't go anywhere. I don't stress over it. I'll put on the fins during masters kick sets just to keep up. 80% of your swim improvements can come from your underwater pull. Look up Sheila T's Swim Speed Secrets. Works wonders if you do the drills, workouts etc. With my terrible kick my last HIM and Oly swim paces were 1:25/100 yards. That of course doesn't mean you can't improve you swimming by improving you kick/doing kick drills. I have chosen not to put emphasis on it. x2 |
| 2014-07-02 7:42 AM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick With practice it will get better and help your swimming when your kick improves. I agree with fins with a kick board but try some w/o fins each session. I also found kicking on my back with my arms above my head, hands together was sort of in between with a kick board and w/o belly down which help the transition. |
| 2014-07-02 8:19 AM in reply to: WaltRitchie |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick as some others have said... it's all ankle flexibility. if you can't get your ankle in line with your leg while relaxed then you are going to be slow/stationary/reverse while doing kick sets without fins. i think olympic swimmers get around -35degree bend in their ankles. |
| 2014-07-02 4:35 PM in reply to: Clempson |
| 8 | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick I've been experimenting with kick sets. I feel I do a better kick if I don't use a kickboard. Just kick, and take a pull every once in a while to take a breath. I've tried keeping my head low when holding onto the board but still feel much slower and out of breath at the end of the set than I do if I've done one with no board. Is this unusual? I really hated any kick yardage until I got rid of the stupid board. |
| 2014-07-03 10:39 AM in reply to: RunnerErin |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick I got some of those short fins and I swear it helps loosen my feet which tend to be tight all the time. I might have to buy that rack. It looks interesting. |
| 2014-07-03 10:40 AM in reply to: chirunner134 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick If you are going backwards when you kick then just turn around. |
| 2014-07-04 1:10 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Originally posted by Left Brain If you are going backwards when you kick then just turn around. FTW! |
| 2014-07-04 8:43 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Originally posted by Left Brain If you are going backwards when you kick then just turn around.
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| 2014-07-04 9:03 AM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain If you are going backwards when you kick then just turn around.
I know, right? We all try to make this way too complicated. |
| 2014-07-04 10:34 AM in reply to: WaltRitchie |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Do's: Stretch out. Kick from the hips, not the knees. Straighter leg flutter kick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcIWgNqr0tw When swimming with a board, keep it a couple inches underwater and level. Don'ts: Avoid "bicycling" your legs, you're not pedaling you're kicking. Wear jammers or lightweight swim shorts; heavy board shorts drag your hips and legs down.
Going backward is a common sign of "bicycle kicking", especially if you are on your back. |
| 2014-07-04 3:34 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 9 | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Originally posted by RunnerErin I've been experimenting with kick sets. I feel I do a better kick if I don't use a kickboard. Just kick, and take a pull every once in a while to take a breath. I've tried keeping my head low when holding onto the board but still feel much slower and out of breath at the end of the set than I do if I've done one with no board. Is this unusual? I really hated any kick yardage until I got rid of the stupid board. I don't use a board either. I never liked how my legs sank when holding my head up using a board, plus I have a herniated disk in my neck and there was a time that using a kick board really bothered that. So then I got into the habit of keeping my head in the water doing kickboard sets, and rolling to inhale. Eventually I quit using the board all together and take a pull with a fist when I need a breath. Also I will kick with one arm stretched in front and one at my side turning my head up to breath like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ePIQb7bXw, except that most times I will keep the same arm stretched out in front for a whole length, then switch. Edited by martindc1 2014-07-04 3:35 PM |
| 2014-07-05 3:23 PM in reply to: Clempson |
| 287 | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Originally posted by Clempson as some others have said... it's all ankle flexibility. if you can't get your ankle in line with your leg while relaxed then you are going to be slow/stationary/reverse while doing kick sets without fins. i think olympic swimmers get around -35degree bend in their ankles. Some of us are never going to get anywhere near the -35 degree ankle bend no matter what we do. Kick sets for those will always be a painfully slow without the addition of fins. |
| 2014-07-05 9:45 PM in reply to: brucemorgan |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Originally posted by brucemorgan Do's: Stretch out. Kick from the hips, not the knees. Straighter leg flutter kick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcIWgNqr0tw When swimming with a board, keep it a couple inches underwater and level. Don'ts: Avoid "bicycling" your legs, you're not pedaling you're kicking. Wear jammers or lightweight swim shorts; heavy board shorts drag your hips and legs down.
Going backward is a common sign of "bicycle kicking", especially if you are on your back. I'm seeing a lot of ankle votes, but in my short life in the pool, this cycling type kick seems to be the biggest problem issue with backwards swimmers (also slow swimming). Seems like a big ole thigh hanging down in the water is gonna slow you down more than a foot not pointy enough. Not saying ankle flexibility isn't a big/common issue... |
| 2014-07-06 7:32 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by brucemorgan I'm seeing a lot of ankle votes, but in my short life in the pool, this cycling type kick seems to be the biggest problem issue with backwards swimmers (also slow swimming). Seems like a big ole thigh hanging down in the water is gonna slow you down more than a foot not pointy enough. Not saying ankle flexibility isn't a big/common issue... Do's: Stretch out. Kick from the hips, not the knees. Straighter leg flutter kick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcIWgNqr0tw When swimming with a board, keep it a couple inches underwater and level. Don'ts: Avoid "bicycling" your legs, you're not pedaling you're kicking. Wear jammers or lightweight swim shorts; heavy board shorts drag your hips and legs down.
Going backward is a common sign of "bicycle kicking", especially if you are on your back. You're making a good point, but IME, it's always been a combination of inadequate plantar flexion and kicking from the knees. I'd be curious to hear if any of the other coaches have ever seen someone who moves backwards when kicking who didn't have both issues going on at the same time.
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| 2014-07-06 8:53 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Don, I find your response somewhat irritating because it reads to me like you're dismissive of non-coach input. For example, this: Originally posted by TriMyBest You're making a good point, but IME, it's always been a combination of inadequate plantar flexion and kicking from the knees. I read that as "you're making a good point, but in my experience you're wrong". And note the "I am a coach" autosignature. Originally posted by TriMyBest I'd be curious to hear if any of the other coaches have ever seen someone who moves backwards when kicking who didn't have both issues going on at the same time. And there you go. You invite other coaches to weigh in, in effect excluding the non-coach input. I'm not a coach, but I did stay at Holiday Inn Express. Edited by brucemorgan 2014-07-06 8:55 PM |
 2014-07-06 9:00 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Fred D 2014-07-06 9:06 PM |
| 2014-07-06 9:10 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Originally posted by Fred D BruceMorgan, I'm not sure where you are going with this, but I can't help but agree with Don that the lack of ankle mobility combined with a knee bend/cycle kick are often the big issues for most newer swimmers. Btw I am not a coach. I also encourage people to kick below the water, practice keeping the feet completely under the water with little knee bend. The kick IS important. My comments were completely additive to other people's comments including the ankle flexibility and knee comments. Bicycle kicking is a common reason to go backward, especially when swimming on the back. Ankle flexibility is a common reason for a weak kick. All true. Thus as I said I found Don's comments somewhat irritating. I don't see why he felt it necessary to disagree and solicit other coaches to back him up. At least that's how I read his post. Others may read it otherwise. |
| 2014-07-06 9:50 PM in reply to: brucemorgan |
| Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: I stay still or even go backwards when I work on my kick Don's only irritating when Fred's around. (peeper.gif) Attachments ---------------- peeper.gif (4KB - 3 downloads) |
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