WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy
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2014-07-10 2:55 PM |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Looks like WTC has made a giant step in the right direction by giving the option for athletes to receive a FULL refund for SELECT IRONMAN and 70.3 events. Of course it comes with a price tag ($90 insurance) but it definitely opens the doors for many options for athletes. Smart business move on WTC's part to still do good business while giving more quality options for the athletes. Still waiting for the details to come out, but this along with the transfer program show WTC is starting to listen more. |
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2014-07-10 3:42 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Expert 1224 Is this Heaven? No, it's Iowa. | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Looks like a good move. Of course there will be a ton of cry babies complaining about the cost of insurance, but that is what insurance is for.
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2014-07-10 4:05 PM in reply to: siouxcityhawk |
96 | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy you say listening, I say finding yet another way to make a lot of money. price went up yet again, and they charge $99 for a what if? If I break a bone crashing or have cancer treatments, the decent thing would be to let me defer, not make me pay $99 so I can plan on a major medical mishap. just like the VIP experience. your family can't be in the finishers area because of safety concerns, even if you are having a medical problem, BUT if you pay a bunch of extra money, then you kids can not only be in the finishers area, we will let you hang at the finisher's line, eating, and drag camera cables around for the other finishers to trip on in their exhaustion so we can get a video of your kids standing in the way at the finish line - cuz that's not dangerous. IM is not doing this because they are "listening" they are doing it to make more money. that's fine, they are a business selling product that people want, but let's not pretend it is some thing it isn't. ...you say crybaby, I say name calling to support your position is now the America way so good for you for being a good patriot. |
2014-07-10 4:08 PM in reply to: gotbitten |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by gotbitten you say listening, I say finding yet another way to make a lot of money. price went up yet again, and they charge $99 for a what if? If I break a bone crashing or have cancer treatments, the decent thing would be to let me defer, not make me pay $99 so I can plan on a major medical mishap. just like the VIP experience. your family can't be in the finishers area because of safety concerns, even if you are having a medical problem, BUT if you pay a bunch of extra money, then you kids can not only be in the finishers area, we will let you hang at the finisher's line, eating, and drag camera cables around for the other finishers to trip on in their exhaustion so we can get a video of your kids standing in the way at the finish line - cuz that's not dangerous. IM is not doing this because they are "listening" they are doing it to make more money. that's fine, they are a business selling product that people want, but let's not pretend it is some thing it isn't. Yes they are a BUSINESS, goal is to make money, increase sales. It is OPTIONAL, price goes up only if you want it to. Ironman is listening, people wanted more options, WTC thought, how can we make a profit and extend to our consumers more. |
2014-07-10 4:10 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
278 Atlanta, Georgia | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy I think it's a good move. While I agree that a deferment or partial refund should be on the table without this, it is what it is & at least WTC is doing something to answer the complaints. Even if it is a money grab. |
2014-07-10 6:02 PM in reply to: 0 |
Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Some people would say when given free chocolate ice cream "but it's not vanilla!" People like to look for the ulterior motive. I think it's a great move in the right direction. How spoiled are we, we sign up for a $600-700 race (!!!!), spend thousands on equipment, training, coaches, supplements, nutrition, massage, physical therapy, IM branded gear, yet compain about $90 which would get us nearly 100 percent reovery of the fee. No one forces anyone to do an IM branded race, there's plenty of other options out there. Or as noted to pay the insurance. yup, we are spoiled rotten Edited by ChrisM 2014-07-10 6:04 PM |
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2014-07-10 6:12 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy I had a friend who crashed a couple of weeks before St. Anthony's last year. He bought the insurance and was glad he did. |
2014-07-10 6:41 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy I blew my knee up 3 weeks before Tahoe last year. You want to know why I didn't bellyache about losing my 650.00 entry fee? Because when I signed up it said "no refund". Seemed pretty straight forward to me. It's still pretty straight forward.... you can buy the insurance or not."Spoiled" doesn't begin to describe people who play at triathlon. |
2014-07-10 6:50 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Took a look at the plan details, actually covers a lot of different scenarios, surprisingly, other than injuries
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2014-07-10 7:40 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Extreme Veteran 601 Cold Spring, NY | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy I certainly don't knock them for offering it, but that is a very expensive insurance policy for what it covers. Some actuary didn't have to think too hard to come up with reimbursable events that have way less than a 1 in 7 chance of occurrence. I would never recommend actually buying it, except maybe to a woman of child birthing age, but probably not even then. Of course, I don't believe it is wise to insure anything that you could afford to lose or replace yourself. If it was a good deal for the masses, then it couldn't be profitable to offer. Health insurance is the exception as there is additional value to the group purchasing aspect of a large network. I'm going to hold my rant on cell phone insurance because I'm tired of preaching about what a crazy cash machine it is for the issuer of the policy. If you were able to pay for your race fee, then I guess its something you could afford to lose since the race fee is a sunk cost with no value after race day. |
2014-07-10 7:55 PM in reply to: 0 |
Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by bdenehy I certainly don't knock them for offering it, but that is a very expensive insurance policy for what it covers. Some actuary didn't have to think too hard to come up with reimbursable events that have way less than a 1 in 7 chance of occurrence. I would never recommend actually buying it, except maybe to a woman of child birthing age, but probably not even then. Of course, I don't believe it is wise to insure anything that you could afford to lose or replace yourself. If it was a good deal for the masses, then it couldn't be profitable to offer. Health insurance is the exception as there is additional value to the group purchasing aspect of a large network. I'm going to hold my rant on cell phone insurance because I'm tired of preaching about what a crazy cash machine it is for the issuer of the policy. If you were able to pay for your race fee, then I guess its something you could afford to lose since the race fee is a sunk cost with no value after race day. I don't have a source, but I think it's typical that the DNS rate is around 15-20% at your typical IM. Or roughly 1 in 7. Edit: Found a source for 2010 NA Ironmans Edited by Jason N 2014-07-10 8:00 PM |
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2014-07-10 10:15 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Extreme Veteran 601 Cold Spring, NY | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by Jason N I don't have a source, but I think it's typical that the DNS rate is around 15-20% at your typical IM. Or roughly 1 in 7. Edit: Found a source for 2010 NA Ironmans I don't doubt that rate, but DNS isn't what they are insuring, unless you meet one of 9 specific criteria, and can prove it. Losing your keys, deciding you didn't train enough, finding out the race isn't wetsuit legal and walking away, etc. all will leave you out the race fee. I once DNS'd a duathlon because I forgot to bring my bike shoes. I've started keeping a pair of platform pedals in the car, but that day I was out a race fee and and on my way home. luckily just a sprint, not an IM that cost ~$700. I am certain that the odds are in the insurers favor, which isn't WTC, I'm sure they are just getting a commission. |
2014-07-10 10:46 PM in reply to: bdenehy |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by bdenehy Originally posted by Jason N I don't have a source, but I think it's typical that the DNS rate is around 15-20% at your typical IM. Or roughly 1 in 7. Edit: Found a source for 2010 NA Ironmans I don't doubt that rate, but DNS isn't what they are insuring, unless you meet one of 9 specific criteria, and can prove it. Losing your keys, deciding you didn't train enough, finding out the race isn't wetsuit legal and walking away, etc. all will leave you out the race fee. I once DNS'd a duathlon because I forgot to bring my bike shoes. I've started keeping a pair of platform pedals in the car, but that day I was out a race fee and and on my way home. luckily just a sprint, not an IM that cost ~$700. I am certain that the odds are in the insurers favor, which isn't WTC, I'm sure they are just getting a commission. Most people that want (demand) refunds from WTC usually fall into the category of what is listed as acceptable, injury, illness, DEPLOYMENT, etc. If you didn't train enough that is on you. |
2014-07-10 11:29 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 601 Cold Spring, NY | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by bcagle25 Most people that want (demand) refunds from WTC usually fall into the category of what is listed as acceptable, injury, illness, DEPLOYMENT, etc. If you didn't train enough that is on you. If that is true and not anecdotal this plan will last for exactly one season. Trans America (or whatever the insurer is called) will not write policies where the expected payout is equal or even close to the premiums. But you raise a point that makes me broaden the group I would recommend this to 1) women considering getting pregnant and 2) active duty military. But if they are the only group for which this statistically makes sense (and I'm sure there are others) the company can only offer it if more "profitable" customers buy it too. That is, someone like me who is relatively healthy, male, and well past draft age (I get that there is no longer a draft). I'll say one other positive thing about the insurance. Being covered can make people FEEL better. If it gives you comfort, buy it. As someone said, it's not mandatory. BYW, my favorite condition is a delay of a Common Carrier making you miss the race. Since you have to check into an IM event a day and a half early, how late would your plane/train/bus have to be to make this an covered event? Edit - I also need to correct my math. It would only make sense if you had a 1 in 6 chance or needing the insurance. They keep the premium so the payout is seven FOR one, not seven TO one. Keep this language difference in mind if you decide to take up craps. Some casinos are tricky with the way they use them. And stay safe, make it to your next race. Edited by bdenehy 2014-07-10 11:48 PM |
2014-07-11 12:33 AM in reply to: bdenehy |
Extreme Veteran 601 Cold Spring, NY | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by bdenehy Edit - I also need to correct my math. It would only make sense if you had a 1 in 6 chance or needing the insurance. They keep the premium so the payout is seven FOR one, not seven TO one. Keep this language difference in mind if you decide to take up craps. Some casinos are tricky with the way they use them. And stay safe, make it to your next race. My math was off here, it really does make sense if you have a 1 in 7 chance of using the insurance. I need more sleep. |
2014-07-11 7:31 AM in reply to: Meathead |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by Meathead IWhile I agree that a deferment or partial refund should be on the table without this Partial refunds have always been available up to 45 days before the race. While deferments are not an option, they now have a transfer policy (which is also not perfect but at least it's something). I actually used the transfer policy this year. It cost $50. Last year I couldn't do an IM and there was no transfer policy. It cost me $1300 as I ate the registration fee for the race I couldn't race plus I had to register for another race. |
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2014-07-11 7:34 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by Left Brain I blew my knee up 3 weeks before Tahoe last year. You want to know why I didn't bellyache about losing my 650.00 entry fee? Because when I signed up it said "no refund". Seemed pretty straight forward to me. It's still pretty straight forward.... you can buy the insurance or not."Spoiled" doesn't begin to describe people who play at triathlon. Agreed. You knew when you registered that the policy was "No refunds and no deferments." Not sure why people complain about it when they agreed to it. I have DNS'd a race or two every year. Some are local races that weren't expensive but I have also DNS'd three 70.3's and one IM. I didn't like losing that money but it is what it is. |
2014-07-11 1:29 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by bcagle25 Looks like WTC has made a giant step in the right direction by giving the option for athletes to receive a FULL refund for SELECT IRONMAN and 70.3 events. Of course it comes with a price tag ($90 insurance) but it definitely opens the doors for many options for athletes. Smart business move on WTC's part to still do good business while giving more quality options for the athletes. Still waiting for the details to come out, but this along with the transfer program show WTC is starting to listen more. WTC could rescue a box of puppies from hurdling over niagra falls and people will find some reason to complain about them..."Oh great, now someone's going to have to adopt and pay for all these dogs. They'll probably wind up selling them to reap even more profit." Man, this company can do no right by some people. Man, if you don't want to race with them, don't race with them. The level of hate leveled at a business for making money boggles the mind. It's not as if they're selling a product that one cannot live without. It's a triathlon, you don't have to participate(and this is coming from a lower middle income, supposedly capitalistic hating, profit hating bleeding heart liberal). |
2014-07-12 5:05 AM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
Elite 4435 | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy I like the option of being able to transfer to someone else - so many events are fully sold out within minutes. My entry why can't i give it to the guy at swim squad who didn't get in?? Challenge events here in Australia offer a transfer policy - to another one of their events. I quite like that. Actually i got a full refund from Challenge but i kind of knew the organiser and that helped. For IM Melbourne i got nothing back. But as Left Brain said, i knew that going in. |
2014-07-12 8:00 AM in reply to: jobaxas |
Elite 3140 | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Overall I applaud the improvement and though I think $90 is a lot to insure 700, it is no worse than going to Best Buy and paying the same amount for that new television for their "insurance". Therefore no major gripes from me.
However, make no mistake that though maybe they are finally listening to the participants they are making the change because there has been a change in the landscape with triathlon especially over the last couple years. With the addition of Challenge to North America with mainly positive reviews from both races , WTC understands that CHallenge being the #2 worldwide produces of races can make a dent in their market share that HITS and REV (at least curently) cannot do, I am not saying with the 35 year headstart that WTC /IM is any threat to fall from the #1 spot but with Challenge being a proven brand in europe and Asia and probably having plans to expand in the US they could pull some participation numbers away from IM. Getting back to the original point Challenge AC had a April 1st cancellation date with a $50 penalty with no explanation needed and they were very receptive to people changing relay partners etc. I think WTC took notice of this also and reacted.
So I think this is just a positive reaction to healthy competition. I have done 2 IM's (IMLP and CHallenge AC, and I was happy with both and had some issues with both but I think healthy competition is best for our sport |
2014-07-13 3:32 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Here is what I don't understand. How is pregnancy covered under this policy? This policy is for an unforeseen circumstance that prevents you from participating. Last I checked pregnancy is not unforeseen. That's like saying I am going to have a tooth removed or some other elective surgery to get my money back. And what I've heard from most RD's is that regardless of the size of the race 10% of people DNS. |
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2014-07-14 1:34 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Veteran 148 | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Here are some numbers for DNS and DNF rates: http://www.runtri.com/2011/01/sold-out-ironman-races-how-many-choos... these are the only "public" figures I am aware of. Put me into the column of the insurance program being a BS effort - somehow this company finds the complete way to satisfy a community's request while lining their pockets. For those beating the IM-lovefest drum, my complaint is they don't do anything for the community, it always seems tied to the bottom line. I don't begrudge them a profit, but shoveling money into the coffers gets particularly tiresome. When I explain to people about Ironman (the company) - I try to explain IM is a company / brand and there is also an IM lifestyle. Unfortunately, the company keeps divorcing itself from the lifestyle. This divide is where many of us find difficulty - more often than not, I find myself saying "keep your hands off my lifestyle." Anyways - to divert away from the IM-Lovefest or IM-hatefest .... If 10 percent DFS - that's approximately 200,000 dollars. These are rough numbers (depending on registration fees and 10+ percent DNSing) - only for discussion. Keep in mind that is from the 1.9 million dollars that a 2800 person field paying 700 dollars pays to IM (one year in advance.) I have previously done a back of the envelope calculation on what it would take to put on IM LP - and I am hard-pressed to get to a million dollars. That is without sponsorships (not public), without merchandise sales and any deals provided by the town. I am not factoring IM's sunk cost either, which would need to be spread out over X years. Side side note: at 90 dollars, over 2000 people will have to sign-up for insurance in order to cover the 10 percent. Again, only for discussion - not all 10 percent will qualify, etc. My point is that is a lot of people - I don't see this program lasting since in order to make money a lot of people have to pay up. Anyways - I think this provides some perspective on the company. They are rolling in money, to some extent they should since they made the investment. But not off the backs of the lifestyle. There are others ways of doing this - just like many, many of the other programs they have rolled out or attempted to roll out. The company seems first, then the "benefit" for the rest of us. Lastly - insurance for military deployment should be a gimme - meaning they should not have to pay for insurance. It is enough to prove their plans changed and were out of their control. Making active personnel jump through a hoop is not needed. I'm off my soapbox now... |
2014-07-14 1:39 PM in reply to: Marvarnett |
297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by Marvarnett Here is what I don't understand. How is pregnancy covered under this policy? This policy is for an unforeseen circumstance that prevents you from participating. Last I checked pregnancy is not unforeseen. That's like saying I am going to have a tooth removed or some other elective surgery to get my money back. And what I've heard from most RD's is that regardless of the size of the race 10% of people DNS. Really? You've never heard of an unplanned pregnancy? Woman registered for a march race in march. In October she gets pregant unexpectedly. How is this not unforseen? Comparing that to a tooth removal or elective surgery seems apples and oranges. |
2014-07-14 3:19 PM in reply to: cialome |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by cialome Here are some numbers for DNS and DNF rates: http://www.runtri.com/2011/01/sold-out-ironman-races-how-many-choos... these are the only "public" figures I am aware of. Put me into the column of the insurance program being a BS effort - somehow this company finds the complete way to satisfy a community's request while lining their pockets. For those beating the IM-lovefest drum, my complaint is they don't do anything for the community, it always seems tied to the bottom line. I don't begrudge them a profit, but shoveling money into the coffers gets particularly tiresome. When I explain to people about Ironman (the company) - I try to explain IM is a company / brand and there is also an IM lifestyle. Unfortunately, the company keeps divorcing itself from the lifestyle. This divide is where many of us find difficulty - more often than not, I find myself saying "keep your hands off my lifestyle." Anyways - to divert away from the IM-Lovefest or IM-hatefest .... If 10 percent DFS - that's approximately 200,000 dollars. These are rough numbers (depending on registration fees and 10+ percent DNSing) - only for discussion. Keep in mind that is from the 1.9 million dollars that a 2800 person field paying 700 dollars pays to IM (one year in advance.) I have previously done a back of the envelope calculation on what it would take to put on IM LP - and I am hard-pressed to get to a million dollars. That is without sponsorships (not public), without merchandise sales and any deals provided by the town. I am not factoring IM's sunk cost either, which would need to be spread out over X years. Side side note: at 90 dollars, over 2000 people will have to sign-up for insurance in order to cover the 10 percent. Again, only for discussion - not all 10 percent will qualify, etc. My point is that is a lot of people - I don't see this program lasting since in order to make money a lot of people have to pay up. Anyways - I think this provides some perspective on the company. They are rolling in money, to some extent they should since they made the investment. But not off the backs of the lifestyle. There are others ways of doing this - just like many, many of the other programs they have rolled out or attempted to roll out. The company seems first, then the "benefit" for the rest of us. Lastly - insurance for military deployment should be a gimme - meaning they should not have to pay for insurance. It is enough to prove their plans changed and were out of their control. Making active personnel jump through a hoop is not needed. I'm off my soapbox now... Nothing for the community? Ironman Foundation Check out the cookie project. My friend started in in Madison, WI. It's simple bake cookies for everyone that lives on course to promote goodwill and a strong cyclist/driver relationship. Ironman caught on and has now helped grow it to IMLP, IM Boulder and IM NZ. |
2014-07-14 3:21 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: WTC Rolls out a Full Refund Policy Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by cialome Here are some numbers for DNS and DNF rates: http://www.runtri.com/2011/01/sold-out-ironman-races-how-many-choos... these are the only "public" figures I am aware of. Put me into the column of the insurance program being a BS effort - somehow this company finds the complete way to satisfy a community's request while lining their pockets. For those beating the IM-lovefest drum, my complaint is they don't do anything for the community, it always seems tied to the bottom line. I don't begrudge them a profit, but shoveling money into the coffers gets particularly tiresome. When I explain to people about Ironman (the company) - I try to explain IM is a company / brand and there is also an IM lifestyle. Unfortunately, the company keeps divorcing itself from the lifestyle. This divide is where many of us find difficulty - more often than not, I find myself saying "keep your hands off my lifestyle." Anyways - to divert away from the IM-Lovefest or IM-hatefest .... If 10 percent DFS - that's approximately 200,000 dollars. These are rough numbers (depending on registration fees and 10+ percent DNSing) - only for discussion. Keep in mind that is from the 1.9 million dollars that a 2800 person field paying 700 dollars pays to IM (one year in advance.) I have previously done a back of the envelope calculation on what it would take to put on IM LP - and I am hard-pressed to get to a million dollars. That is without sponsorships (not public), without merchandise sales and any deals provided by the town. I am not factoring IM's sunk cost either, which would need to be spread out over X years. Side side note: at 90 dollars, over 2000 people will have to sign-up for insurance in order to cover the 10 percent. Again, only for discussion - not all 10 percent will qualify, etc. My point is that is a lot of people - I don't see this program lasting since in order to make money a lot of people have to pay up. Anyways - I think this provides some perspective on the company. They are rolling in money, to some extent they should since they made the investment. But not off the backs of the lifestyle. There are others ways of doing this - just like many, many of the other programs they have rolled out or attempted to roll out. The company seems first, then the "benefit" for the rest of us. Lastly - insurance for military deployment should be a gimme - meaning they should not have to pay for insurance. It is enough to prove their plans changed and were out of their control. Making active personnel jump through a hoop is not needed. I'm off my soapbox now... Nothing for the community? Ironman Foundation Check out the cookie project. My friend started in in Madison, WI. It's simple bake cookies for everyone that lives on course to promote goodwill and a strong cyclist/driver relationship. Ironman caught on and has now helped grow it to IMLP, IM Boulder and IM NZ. Also please show me your data for what it takes to put on an Ironman race. Most people significantly underestimate the cost. For example, IMWI WTC rents out the ENTIRE Monona Terrace for 8 days, that is a large sum of money. Plus I have never seen people when they make these calculations of costs ever add in all the gas it takes for transport to a race and all the transport within the race. |
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