Swimming: arms or legs (Page 2)

Yaz.....my kid did not start swimming until he was 14.  In his first draft legal triathlon he was 53rd out of the water in the youth division....never in the race although he frequently put down top 5 run splits.  He joined a swim club and his coach (level 5 swim coach) said these exact words...."it won't be easy to get him up to speed, his kick is horrible, that's what he missed by not starting when he was younger".  3 years later and literally hundreds of thousands of kick set yards and he was 13th out of the water last weekend.....front pack in the extremely competitive Jr. Elite level..  In just about ANY AG race he is first or close to first out of the water. 

Yes, I know that most people don't have the time to do 2000 and 3000 yard kick sets.....but you can't make a statement that tremendous gains are not possible by kicking MORE.  In fact, there are plenty of people on this board who can vouch for it....they began to train their kick, and their race improved dramatically.

Like I said....it's horribly boring and tedious training...but in addition to dramatic improvements in your swim, it also contributes tremendously to an exceptionally strong core and very strong and balanced hips.

Any USA top level swim coach will laugh at your idea that fast swimming doesn't include a great kick.....and to say you don't need it in triathlon, especially at the sprint and oly level, is laughable.  But, by all means, like I said.....don't kick.....makes no difference to me.  Stay in the pack and fight your swim while the good swimmers with the big kick get clear water...I don't care.

You can train the pull....you have to BUILD a good kick, and the benefits are tremendous across the board.

I hear you LB, but again, the recommendations for a talented budding top youth triathlete with elite-level talent, versus the struggling self-taught AGer with no coaching or swimlessons, is vastly different. 

At his level of swimming (or potential), ANYTHING missed is a weakness. Kicking, pulling, even sharpening flip turns (despite not being a pool competitor) - at the top levels you gotta have everything.

For an AGer without top level talent, extremely limited swim time (usually 10k/week, if not

2000-3000yd kick sets obviously are not going to work if you're swimming <7k/week. At that volume, even 1000yds of kick sets is of questionable value compared to the high yields of using that limited yardage to hammer on the front end.

As has been said repeatedly - elite level training can often differ substantially from an AGer (like the typical BTer), despite the overlap.

Everyone should stop kicking, end of story. Its a huge waste of time with no benefits. I mean, have you ever seen a swimmer kick?

I would also advise not swinging your arms when running.

When cycling only push with your legs from about 12-3.

I find it helpful to hold your breath for at least 6-8 strokes on the swim as well.

Training more than twice a week in each sport is for elites, you don't need to worry about that.

People who do triathlon don't work on their kick because it sucks to work on your kick.  Period.

There is absolutely NO good argument that can be made against the statement that a better kick will make you a faster/more efficient swimmer.  NONE!

You are just wrong. No one is saying that you should be doing 3000 yard kicksets every week forever. But you DO need to spend time with it. Maybe for a few months. There was a time last winter where I spent 50% of my time working on my hand entry, and a time where I spent hours and hours working on my hip rotation. And a very frustrating time where I learned a 2-beat kick etc. Now I don't have to spend as much time on those things, but if I didn't spend the time before, I'd be coming out of the water in 30 minutes still, instead of 23-24 minutes.

All the fitness in the world is meaningless without technique.

Let's assume you have an athlete that swims 10-12k a week.  When is that swimmer's kick good enough to focus back on stroke mechanics?  I know the better answer is "keep the kick volume while building the stroke mechanics", but that's not viable for everyone's schedule.  

Might help some to get a better idea of what your saying if some of this was in percentage, or maybe how much out of 10k/week? A couple 2-3000 yd kick sets a week for your son when he's swimming 40-50k/wk actually isn't really all that much, but it would be most all of the time allocated for swimming for a more typical age grouper. Say ~10k/wk at best.

I still like Jordan's recommendation of averaging something near 10% a week. Not 10% every time, or even exactly 10% every week, but averaging out over a longer time. So do take some time at some point and do the bigger kick sets. I (finally) made some progress on this by getting in several sets of 500-800 within a week for a few weeks time. I know most still won't be able to get in 3,000 plus like I did, but the larger point is to make a bigger push on it for a period of time. I repeated a few rounds of several weeks in a row of bigger kick sets and then back down closer to the average.

Obviously, if you are only swimming 10,000 per week then it doesn't make much sense to do 3000 yard kick sets.....in fact, nobody who swims only 10,000 per week, with no swim background, will be able to do 3000 yard kick sets.  The problem is, for years and years people have thrown out the garbage that you should not kick in a triathlon so you can save your legs....therefore, nobody trains their kick. For sprint and Oly that's crap. They say they don't really need it, but the truth is it sucks to train it.  Train your legs to kick and you won't need to save them for anything because, in fact, they will be much stronger, and you will be more durable to boot, with a much stronger core as a huge side benefit.

I will ask.....but I can tell you this.... I watched my son's coach ONLY let him kick for almost 6 weeks.  He came out of it able to keep up with his team on kick sets....and he never could before...and his times began to plummet.

I always laugh when the "don't have time" issue is brought up.  Of course you have time......you just need to decide how you are using it.  The idea is to build a great race.....it takes time, and it takes incremental steps.  Learning a good kick is important for a good  swim.  If you don't have time, then you don't have time to build a good swim/race.  That's all.

I agree, but you have to find a balance between triathlon, life, the universe, and everything.  I was thinking to get that much kick in you'd almost have to dedicate an entire workout or two to just kicking.   

I fully plan on trying some of your crazy swim theories this off-season.  Extreme (for most triathletes) amounts of kicking, tripling swim volume, and even focusing on flip turns.  I could use the extra volume anyway.

There's not much crazy about it.  You have a good bike and decent run.....add a good swim with a good kick. Watch what it does for your run and report back.