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2014-07-13 3:32 PM

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Subject: Swimming: arms or legs
Hi everyone. I am relatively new to swimming (started about 1 month ago) and was curious what your thoughts were on the ratio of arms to legs in swimming? If it's 50:50 that's fine but just looking for some wisdom. My arms get tired before my legs so maybe I'm not balancing the effort correctly. I also realize I need to be working out my arm muscles a bit more. Do you find fewer big kicks or frequent small kicks works best for you conserving energy?

Thanks for any advice!


2014-07-13 4:45 PM
in reply to: ChemNerd23

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
As a natural fishie my experience may not be typical so take this for what it's worth. My kick is less about propulsion and more about maintaining rhythm and balance when swimming distance swims. Sprints are a whole different story but for long swims, my arms carry the load.

BTW - not unusual that your arms would feel more tired than your legs if you are new to it. If you have been running or cycling you have strong legs already. While the exercise is not directly transferable, just having the basic strength in the legs will result in them feeling less tired as you begin swimming.

Keep it up and you will be fine.

2014-07-13 5:08 PM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Originally posted by Stuartap

As a natural fishie my experience may not be typical so take this for what it's worth. My kick is less about propulsion and more about maintaining rhythm and balance when swimming distance swims. Sprints are a whole different story but for long swims, my arms carry the load.

BTW - not unusual that your arms would feel more tired than your legs if you are new to it. If you have been running or cycling you have strong legs already. While the exercise is not directly transferable, just having the basic strength in the legs will result in them feeling less tired as you begin swimming.

Keep it up and you will be fine.




100% agree.
2014-07-13 8:00 PM
in reply to: ChemNerd23

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
More about form and flexibility. Having flexible ankles makes for an efficient kick. An efficient kick helps maintain a good body position.
2014-07-13 8:16 PM
in reply to: simpsonbo

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Agree with all, throw another log in the fire, you can't swim well if you don't kick, so don't listen to advice that tells you not to kick. The kick is not 50% of your propulsion! it's a lot less than that, but it is integral and important and you can't ignore it. Keep on swimming!
2014-07-13 8:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Sover 80 percent of your propulsion is arm driven. Spend most of your limited swim time building the arm technique snd power.

All the fish who say how important kicking is can actually fly in the water with zero kick on pull buoy sets, basically as fast as they go if kicking.



2014-07-13 10:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Thanks everyone for the quick replies. I haven't taken any form of lessons (money reasons) and have been looking at YouTube videos for advice on technique. See you in the water!
2014-07-13 10:38 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs

Originally posted by yazmaster Sover 80 percent of your propulsion is arm driven. Spend most of your limited swim time building the arm technique snd power. All the fish who say how important kicking is can actually fly in the water with zero kick on pull buoy sets, basically as fast as they go if kicking.

No....all of the fish who say how important kicking is can kick a 100 faster than 90% of the people here can swim one....and if you find yourself racing them,  they would also like you to not work to develop a kick.

2014-07-13 11:49 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster Sover 80 percent of your propulsion is arm driven. Spend most of your limited swim time building the arm technique snd power. All the fish who say how important kicking is can actually fly in the water with zero kick on pull buoy sets, basically as fast as they go if kicking.

No....all of the fish who say how important kicking is can kick a 100 faster than 90% of the people here can swim one....and if you find yourself racing them,  they would also like you to not work to develop a kick.

Think it's a bit of a loaded topic. Do want to be efficient at kicking so that the energy put in is effective at doing something, but think many mistakenly take that to mean not to do much of any kicking since that sounds like it may not matter. Especially in the longer races, the fish will kick only a little, but their efficiency will be incredible and they get a lot out of a kick even though they only put in a little effort during the race (I'm looking past specific situations right now that many on this board will not really encounter). Trying to determine what is "efficient" is a really good question. And what it takes to become anyone's type of efficient could be all over the map as people will develop quite differently with such a variety of starting points (and other reasons). Pretty safe to say that hardly going anywhere, or actually going backwards could probably stand to do something about it though. 

2014-07-14 7:55 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster Sover 80 percent of your propulsion is arm driven. Spend most of your limited swim time building the arm technique snd power. All the fish who say how important kicking is can actually fly in the water with zero kick on pull buoy sets, basically as fast as they go if kicking.

No....all of the fish who say how important kicking is can kick a 100 faster than 90% of the people here can swim one....and if you find yourself racing them,  they would also like you to not work to develop a kick.




LB-- zip it!!!
2014-07-14 9:00 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster Sover 80 percent of your propulsion is arm driven. Spend most of your limited swim time building the arm technique snd power. All the fish who say how important kicking is can actually fly in the water with zero kick on pull buoy sets, basically as fast as they go if kicking.

No....all of the fish who say how important kicking is can kick a 100 faster than 90% of the people here can swim one....and if you find yourself racing them,  they would also like you to not work to develop a kick.

Think it's a bit of a loaded topic. Do want to be efficient at kicking so that the energy put in is effective at doing something, but think many mistakenly take that to mean not to do much of any kicking since that sounds like it may not matter. Especially in the longer races, the fish will kick only a little, but their efficiency will be incredible and they get a lot out of a kick even though they only put in a little effort during the race (I'm looking past specific situations right now that many on this board will not really encounter). Trying to determine what is "efficient" is a really good question. And what it takes to become anyone's type of efficient could be all over the map as people will develop quite differently with such a variety of starting points (and other reasons). Pretty safe to say that hardly going anywhere, or actually going backwards could probably stand to do something about it though. 

There is not a single person on this board, except for a very select few, who would not become a better swimmer by doing more kicking and learning to kick better.  It's not fun,  it's not glamorous, and it basically sucks all the way around as training.....but it's necessary to become better/faster.



2014-07-14 9:44 AM
in reply to: ChemNerd23

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
I basically use my kick to to keep my legs afloat and stabilise me. When I'm doing a 100m, I can knock off about 8 seconds from kicking hard. Which over a 1m20s 100m kicking hard, compared with a 1m28s 100m just keeping stable, it's about 10% better by kicking. However, I can't kick hard for too long, 3 or 4 x 100m. And I wouldn't want to run after that...

But what time I'd do without kicking at all, I have no idea.
2014-07-14 10:04 AM
in reply to: Eucid

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs

 

I had some of the same questions and was resistant to work on my kick until this past winter. I finally got some good coaching and even though I fought them a bit at first, they forced me to work on my kick. A good kick really does help with the overall stroke.

My conclusion was this, train like a real swimmer, then race smart. If you don't work on your kick in training, your kick won't do you much good in racing, if you train the kick like a real swimmer does, that does not mean you have to use all of it in a race. 50% of a well trained kick is still much better than an untrained kick in a race. 

So I kicked a lot in training then I dialed it back a bit in my IM based on RPE so my legs were fresh when I got out of the water. 

2014-07-14 11:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
I agree with the folks that say a strong kick is beneficial to a good swim. I swim with a bunch of triathletes (no 'swimmers') and we are all coached by a 'swimmer". Our coach didn't like my body position so he took away my fins and I had to keep up with the others who did have fins. At first it totally and completely sucked. There was nothing fun about it. After 100 of kick I was gassed for the rest of the workout. That's because you have bigger muscles in your legs that demand more O2. (nothing new and different there). After about 6 months of this, I can now drop everyone in my lane and, previously, I couldn't even hang with them. This isn't all legs but it sure helps.
There are a couple of guys that believe that one should not kick at all to save the legs for the bike/run. So their legs hang down to where their toes almost drag on the bottom of the pool. Therefore, they have to work the arms much harder to pull themselves through the water.
Swimming is more holistic and one can't simply omit one factor of it. That would be like saying that I don't want to put my hands on the handlebars in and effort to save them for the run. How fast would I be on the bike then? Works the same with swimming. Train your legs then they won't get overly tired in the bike/run.


Edited by pwoolson 2014-07-14 11:46 AM
2014-07-14 2:03 PM
in reply to: simpsonbo

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Originally posted by simpsonbo

More about form and flexibility. Having flexible ankles makes for an efficient kick. An efficient kick helps maintain a good body position.


Do you have any recommendations for how to increase ankle flexibility? The older I get, the more I notice that I am losing flexibility in general, but I think the running and cycling have really decreased my ankle flexibility. They haven't done any favors for the flexibility of my glutes and hamstrings, either.
2014-07-14 3:07 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster Sover 80 percent of your propulsion is arm driven. Spend most of your limited swim time building the arm technique snd power. All the fish who say how important kicking is can actually fly in the water with zero kick on pull buoy sets, basically as fast as they go if kicking.

No....all of the fish who say how important kicking is can kick a 100 faster than 90% of the people here can swim one....and if you find yourself racing them,  they would also like you to not work to develop a kick.

Think it's a bit of a loaded topic. Do want to be efficient at kicking so that the energy put in is effective at doing something, but think many mistakenly take that to mean not to do much of any kicking since that sounds like it may not matter. Especially in the longer races, the fish will kick only a little, but their efficiency will be incredible and they get a lot out of a kick even though they only put in a little effort during the race (I'm looking past specific situations right now that many on this board will not really encounter). Trying to determine what is "efficient" is a really good question. And what it takes to become anyone's type of efficient could be all over the map as people will develop quite differently with such a variety of starting points (and other reasons). Pretty safe to say that hardly going anywhere, or actually going backwards could probably stand to do something about it though. 





Without claiming to be a "fish" per se, those of us that kick during a race aren't doing it solely for propulsion, it's simply part of the stroke. PERIOD. It's part of swimming the stroke. It can't be stated often enough or loudly enough, you have to kick. If you have limited time, that doesn't mean you abandon kicking in favor of just using arms, it means you accept it's going to take you longer to develop a proper stroke, but you're going to do it right. If you don't have patience in triathlon, you won't last very long.

If you don't kick, you have a drag point in your stroke where you are not propulsion and accelerate it with your next arm stroke. If you don't have that dead point, your timing is pretty lousy, and would mean you are more than half way through your pull when your opposite hand enters the water, which means a lot of bad things are happening. Let's also point out that if you don't kick in a wetsuit that means you probably don't kick in the pool, either. So how do you manage to keep your hips high? Do you do everything with a pull buoy? How do you maintain a proper feel for fore\aft balance in the water? How the heck are you rotating if your hips are flat on the water?

I can't think of a proper comparison on the run, maybe it's like committing to run in flip flops? Or on the bike only training with the seat too high? You're not just limiting how fast you can go, you're plainly not doing it right. Swimming properly is FUN, because you can go fast in the water. It's a really really really cool sensation, just like running fast and cyclist fast is. Swimming fast might even be MORE fun than running and cycling fast, because while height and strength can be limiters on land, they really aren't as much in the water.

I'm enjoying all this 'don't kick' stuff personally, it gets me out of the water ahead of a lot of people that would otherwise kick my rear. If those people put half the time in the water that they put on the run, i'd be relegated to the back of the pack where I belong.


2014-07-14 3:15 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs

Originally posted by fisherman76
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster Sover 80 percent of your propulsion is arm driven. Spend most of your limited swim time building the arm technique snd power. All the fish who say how important kicking is can actually fly in the water with zero kick on pull buoy sets, basically as fast as they go if kicking.

No....all of the fish who say how important kicking is can kick a 100 faster than 90% of the people here can swim one....and if you find yourself racing them,  they would also like you to not work to develop a kick.

Think it's a bit of a loaded topic. Do want to be efficient at kicking so that the energy put in is effective at doing something, but think many mistakenly take that to mean not to do much of any kicking since that sounds like it may not matter. Especially in the longer races, the fish will kick only a little, but their efficiency will be incredible and they get a lot out of a kick even though they only put in a little effort during the race (I'm looking past specific situations right now that many on this board will not really encounter). Trying to determine what is "efficient" is a really good question. And what it takes to become anyone's type of efficient could be all over the map as people will develop quite differently with such a variety of starting points (and other reasons). Pretty safe to say that hardly going anywhere, or actually going backwards could probably stand to do something about it though. 

Without claiming to be a "fish" per se, those of us that kick during a race aren't doing it solely for propulsion, it's simply part of the stroke. PERIOD. It's part of swimming the stroke. It can't be stated often enough or loudly enough, you have to kick. If you have limited time, that doesn't mean you abandon kicking in favor of just using arms, it means you accept it's going to take you longer to develop a proper stroke, but you're going to do it right. If you don't have patience in triathlon, you won't last very long. If you don't kick, you have a drag point in your stroke where you are not propulsion and accelerate it with your next arm stroke. If you don't have that dead point, your timing is pretty lousy, and would mean you are more than half way through your pull when your opposite hand enters the water, which means a lot of bad things are happening. Let's also point out that if you don't kick in a wetsuit that means you probably don't kick in the pool, either. So how do you manage to keep your hips high? Do you do everything with a pull buoy? How do you maintain a proper feel for fore\aft balance in the water? How the heck are you rotating if your hips are flat on the water? I can't think of a proper comparison on the run, maybe it's like committing to run in flip flops? Or on the bike only training with the seat too high? You're not just limiting how fast you can go, you're plainly not doing it right. Swimming properly is FUN, because you can go fast in the water. It's a really really really cool sensation, just like running fast and cyclist fast is. Swimming fast might even be MORE fun than running and cycling fast, because while height and strength can be limiters on land, they really aren't as much in the water. I'm enjoying all this 'don't kick' stuff personally, it gets me out of the water ahead of a lot of people that would otherwise kick my rear. If those people put half the time in the water that they put on the run, i'd be relegated to the back of the pack where I belong.

Shhhhhh!!!  You know damn well that swimming is not that important compared to bike and run.

2014-07-14 3:27 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Study the science, guys. Kicking is important, but it isn't necessarily that important for propulsion. It's important for lift. A good kick lifts the body more out of the water, thus reducing drag, thus allowing the arms to either do less work to maintain the same speed or to allow the arms to move the body faster at the same work rate. Swimming is all about reducing drag. Streamline the body, and you present less of an obstacle to move yourself through the water. What helps to streamline the body? Kicking properly.

If you're talking to high level swimmers, kicking *will* be important for propulsion, especially in the sprint events (50, 100, 200) because hundredths of a second can make all of the difference in those events. If you are going for more distance, the importance of kicking really does switch to lift and reducing drag. Don't kick with a bent knee, kick from the waist. Otherwise you introduce drag.

Kicking matters. Developing a regular, fundamental kick is probably more important step than trying to develop a powerful kick at first, as the regular kick will help to maintain body position, roll, reduce drag, etc.

Full disclosure: I hate kicking. I had one of the fastest kicks on my high school team, and 20 years later I've let that go, and I'm just nowhere near what I used to be there...which is why I'm going to dedicate more and more of my time to it in the offseason this time through.
2014-07-14 3:50 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by fisherman76
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster Sover 80 percent of your propulsion is arm driven. Spend most of your limited swim time building the arm technique snd power. All the fish who say how important kicking is can actually fly in the water with zero kick on pull buoy sets, basically as fast as they go if kicking.

No....all of the fish who say how important kicking is can kick a 100 faster than 90% of the people here can swim one....and if you find yourself racing them,  they would also like you to not work to develop a kick.

Think it's a bit of a loaded topic. Do want to be efficient at kicking so that the energy put in is effective at doing something, but think many mistakenly take that to mean not to do much of any kicking since that sounds like it may not matter. Especially in the longer races, the fish will kick only a little, but their efficiency will be incredible and they get a lot out of a kick even though they only put in a little effort during the race (I'm looking past specific situations right now that many on this board will not really encounter). Trying to determine what is "efficient" is a really good question. And what it takes to become anyone's type of efficient could be all over the map as people will develop quite differently with such a variety of starting points (and other reasons). Pretty safe to say that hardly going anywhere, or actually going backwards could probably stand to do something about it though. 

Without claiming to be a "fish" per se, those of us that kick during a race aren't doing it solely for propulsion, it's simply part of the stroke. PERIOD. It's part of swimming the stroke. It can't be stated often enough or loudly enough, you have to kick. If you have limited time, that doesn't mean you abandon kicking in favor of just using arms, it means you accept it's going to take you longer to develop a proper stroke, but you're going to do it right. If you don't have patience in triathlon, you won't last very long. If you don't kick, you have a drag point in your stroke where you are not propulsion and accelerate it with your next arm stroke. If you don't have that dead point, your timing is pretty lousy, and would mean you are more than half way through your pull when your opposite hand enters the water, which means a lot of bad things are happening. Let's also point out that if you don't kick in a wetsuit that means you probably don't kick in the pool, either. So how do you manage to keep your hips high? Do you do everything with a pull buoy? How do you maintain a proper feel for fore\aft balance in the water? How the heck are you rotating if your hips are flat on the water? I can't think of a proper comparison on the run, maybe it's like committing to run in flip flops? Or on the bike only training with the seat too high? You're not just limiting how fast you can go, you're plainly not doing it right. Swimming properly is FUN, because you can go fast in the water. It's a really really really cool sensation, just like running fast and cyclist fast is. Swimming fast might even be MORE fun than running and cycling fast, because while height and strength can be limiters on land, they really aren't as much in the water. I'm enjoying all this 'don't kick' stuff personally, it gets me out of the water ahead of a lot of people that would otherwise kick my rear. If those people put half the time in the water that they put on the run, i'd be relegated to the back of the pack where I belong.

Shhhhhh!!!  You know damn well that swimming is not that important compared to bike and run.


This is definitely the case in a situation like Sunday, when I was 100% looking forward to using my advantage in the water, only to have the swim in Lake Michigan canceled due to rough water, and the event turned into a duathlon, which meant it was 2 times in my weakest discipline! Oh the joys!
2014-07-14 4:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Both the arms and legs are important. I've taken classes on efficient freestyle technique and my instructors have always stressed the importance of doing both correctly. Rather than viewing the arms and legs as separate and unrelated, view them as necessary parts of a whole. That said in terms of propulsion, I was told that the kick is about 20% and the arm stroke 80%. If your kick is inefficient and incorrect, it will affect your body alignment and make your swimming inefficient, so regardless of how powerful your stroke is, you'll end up wasting energy and swimming slower over the long run.

A good kick helps balance and streamline your body in the water. Posture is important in swimming. Make sure to keep your legs as straight as possible (or with a very slight bend in the knees) when kicking. Keep the kick small like a flutter. The more you bend the knee or widen the distance between your legs while kicking, the more drag you create and more your body loses its alignment and your body sinks. Also, ankle flexibility is helpful. One way to work on ankle flexibility is to practice in a pool. Go to the low end of the pool and stand on your tiptoes using the edge of the pool to balance with your arms or hands. Curl your toes under and balance while still holding the edge of the pool with your arms or hands. This will help improve ankle flexibility.

Remember to keep a straight posture and rotate about 45 degrees. Doing some plank exercises helps with the straight posture. Also, breathe easily and properly. You shouldn't be gulping in the air and you need to expel all the air out.

As for the kicks per stroke, it depends on whether you plan to do the a continuous kick or a two beat kick, but keep the kicks small. I tend to do somewhere in between both when swimming longer distances. I don't think you should worry about how many kicks per stroke just yet. Mine evolved over time: I used to kick quite a bit per stroke, but as I improved I noticed that I was kicking less.

Fyi, I'm not a natural fishie either. A year ago I could barely swim more than two laps in a 25 yrd pool without stopping for a long break.

Edited by Milala 2014-07-14 4:33 PM
2014-07-14 4:17 PM
in reply to: Milala

Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Here are some videos I looked at which I found helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQpF_mmg44
This is the first of a five part series (I believe) on strokes.

http://www.swimsmooth.com/

I also liked The Racing Club series on youtube.


2014-07-14 4:46 PM
in reply to: MSU_Brad

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
Originally posted by MSU_Brad

Study the science, guys. Kicking is important, but it isn't necessarily that important for propulsion. It's important for lift. A good kick lifts the body more out of the water, thus reducing drag, thus allowing the arms to either do less work to maintain the same speed or to allow the arms to move the body faster at the same work rate. Swimming is all about reducing drag. Streamline the body, and you present less of an obstacle to move yourself through the water. What helps to streamline the body? Kicking properly.



Is it safe to say that with wetsuit swims the kick becomes much less important ?
2014-07-14 5:21 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by MSU_Brad Study the science, guys. Kicking is important, but it isn't necessarily that important for propulsion. It's important for lift. A good kick lifts the body more out of the water, thus reducing drag, thus allowing the arms to either do less work to maintain the same speed or to allow the arms to move the body faster at the same work rate. Swimming is all about reducing drag. Streamline the body, and you present less of an obstacle to move yourself through the water. What helps to streamline the body? Kicking properly.
Is it safe to say that with wetsuit swims the kick becomes much less important ?

Most will be faster/more efficient with a wetsuit because of the better body position....but they still can't beat the folks who kick well, it just closes the gap a bit.

2014-07-14 9:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs
I'm not going to weigh in on how important legs and arms are - I don't have the expertise.
I just want to comment on the "My arms get tired before my legs so maybe I'm not balancing the effort correctly" thought.
Many, many, years ago I swam on my high school team after a pretty non-athletic childhood.
In those days my legs always gave out way before my arms felt tired.

After high school I didn't swim for many years but I did become a runner. Worked my way up to marathons.
Fairly recently I added swimming back in to my workouts.
Now, my legs never seem to get tired. It's my arms that are the weak link.

So, which gets more tired isn't a very good measure of how much effort is going in to each. It very much depends on what your particular strengths and weaknesses are.



Edited by DennisF6 2014-07-14 9:37 PM
2014-07-14 9:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: arms or legs

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster Sover 80 percent of your propulsion is arm driven. Spend most of your limited swim time building the arm technique snd power. All the fish who say how important kicking is can actually fly in the water with zero kick on pull buoy sets, basically as fast as they go if kicking.

No....all of the fish who say how important kicking is can kick a 100 faster than 90% of the people here can swim one....and if you find yourself racing them,  they would also like you to not work to develop a kick.

 

I still stand by my original post. Note that this doesn't mean I say it's not worth it to improve your kick some - it clearly is, and the better swimmer you become, the more important the kick becomes.

 

But for anything short of a FFOP swimmer trying to get better - it's almost entirely about the front-end.  You do NOT go from one category to another in triathlon swimming (like BOP to MOP)  by working on the kick - you get it by improving your pull. The kicking is secondary to the pulling.

 

And those fish absolutely do NOT need a kick to go fast. They'll lose a small % of speed, yes, if you remove their kick (like pulling with a buoy), but they will still remain very fast sans kick. I bring this up to reinforce how important the pull is. In response to the OP, which is more important, it's perfectly correct to say it's 80%+ arms for swim speed, and 20% or less your kick power. Test any of the fish or folks on this very forum or elsewhere with swim+kick vs swim+no kick+buoy and it'll be very clear. Even with those dead spots and other inefficiences that are introduced while swimming without a kick.

 

But again, don't take it from me - take it from Sheila Taormina, ex-olympian and high level swimmer, who felt it was important enough to write an entire book devoted entirely to the catch and pull of the upper body, while clearly saying freestyle is 80% propulsion from upper body pull and 20% body position/drag reduction in her Swim Speed Secrets book aimed at triathletes/intermediate swimmers.

http://swimspeedsecrets.com/about/



Edited by yazmaster 2014-07-14 9:54 PM
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