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2014-09-08 10:39 AM

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Subject: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Well Im doing the TRIAC in atlantic city this sunday and I'm excited but really scared considering how my first swim went a few weeks back. Struggled to say the least floated on my back outta shear panic more than I wanted to.

I almost wish I didn't do the other tri a few weeks back cause then it was just race anxiety and not straight fear like it is now.

If this sprint swim does not go better this week I will be saying goodbye to the triathlon world and going back to road race and OCRs.

Someone said that this is a treading water type start so again not what I want to do at all.

I don't consider myself a bad swimmer(pool swims 450yds in 7-8mins rough estimate) I just don't know what to do if someone is in front of me. so I panic and to back and float and slowing move forward staring at the blue sky and praying that it ends soon.

I'll know the minute I crawl out of the water whether I will do another one next yr or not.

ONE thing is certain of my 30 or so races(marathons and 15mile mountain endurance/obstacle courses ) this will be my favorite for sure. for many reasons!!!!!

OVERCOME THE FEAR at least one more time!!!!!!


2014-09-08 10:41 AM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last

 

Get 2-3 open water swims in before the race. They don't have to be intense workouts, just get out there and get comfy. 

2014-09-08 10:48 AM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last

What do you do in a marathon when someone gets in your way? When the race bottlenecks in front of you? You slow a bit and find a way around right? Do the same in the swim. Your times show that you are a strong enough swimmer so your skill isn't the issue. I agree that doing an OWS before the race would help A LOT but if that's not an option at this point just work on staying calm and going around the people in your way.

 

2014-09-08 11:02 AM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
good luck!
2014-09-08 11:12 AM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
I will be doing the Oly Tri AC on Sunday. Where are you staying? I will be staying in Ocean City( 15 minute drive South of AC), If you are interested in some help I could do an Ocean or bay swim with on Saturday? Sounds like this is all in your head. If the crowds bother you it is usually easy enough to move out 25 yard from the main pack and swim in open water.
2014-09-08 11:37 AM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last

If OWS is something you really don't enjoy, then so be it.  There are many other endurance/athletic activities to get into that you may just enjoy more. 

that said- you can get comfortable in the water.  Problem is, race day isn't that time.  It sounds like you are a relatively comfortable swimmer, but then you hit the open water at the same time you're surrounded by 100 other racers, and add to that the nerves of starting a tri, and put it all together and it's not surprising that it's an uncomfortable situation.

So- I wouldn't use this sunday as a metric on if you'll do more triathlons.  Instead, decide if this is something that you want to do, and if so, make it a point to get used to OWS on more friendly terms.

 



2014-09-08 11:56 AM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
I have always been comfortable in the water. I grew up swimming in lakes, and I white water kayak. There is something about swimming in that pack that messes with me, though. The bumping. The hurrying. Feeling self-conscious because I was swimming so badly and everyone was pulling ahead. Here are a few things that I have learned.
1) Stick to the outside. There are fewer people there. So what if you have to swim a few extra yards, at least you will avoid the crowd.
2) Hurrying makes me slow. I learned this one night during OWS practice. I was having a great swim. I was in the groove. Then the lighting started. I headed for shore as fast as I could. I started struggling and it made me slower. I would have gotten to shore faster if I had just stuck with my rhythm and maintained my long run effort.
3) Slow it down. I got this from the guy who taught me how to roll a kayak. Try being strapped into a boat upside down in moving water with rocks near your head. It will mess with you. He taught me to pause for a second and collect myself then use that to take control of my body. It was extremely useful when I remembered that.

Hopefully you find something useful in this. I agree with the advice to not let things rest on just this one race. If you struggle, it just means that you know what you need to work on. See if there are any triathlon clubs in the area. You might find someone there who has useful advice and someone who can practice open water swims with you.
2014-09-08 12:07 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Originally posted by mike761

I will be doing the Oly Tri AC on Sunday. Where are you staying? I will be staying in Ocean City( 15 minute drive South of AC), If you are interested in some help I could do an Ocean or bay swim with you on Saturday? Sounds like this is all in your head. If the crowds bother you it is usually easy enough to move out 25 yard from the main pack and swim in open water.


FYI- there is also an open water swim at Marsh Creek lake this Wednesday, don't know where you are in PA but if your close they set up a 1/4 mile loop and usually get a bunch of people to show.
Here's the link
http://www.midatlanticmultisport.com/open_water_series.html
2014-09-08 12:13 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Originally posted by mike761

I will be doing the Oly Tri AC on Sunday. Where are you staying? I will be staying in Ocean City( 15 minute drive South of AC), If you are interested in some help I could do an Ocean or bay swim with on Saturday? Sounds like this is all in your head. If the crowds bother you it is usually easy enough to move out 25 yard from the main pack and swim in open water.


I believe you all are correct in saying it's a head thing. And if I do continue to do tris I will find a place to practice OWS at least every other week.

I appreciate the gesture mike but its kinda a weekend away from the 2yr old for me and the wife and we will be just getting there on sat and it might be tough to get away if your married you probably get it. I will staying at the trump plaza and for a place that's closing a few days later it is expensive. How that place went bankrupt charging that for rooms is beyond me...lol.

That being said I will have to just wing on sunday morning and I WILL be staying outside and trying to really focus on the slow long stroke and talk myself through each stroke.

I did just read that its a dock start and its kinda go when you feel ready so maybe that will help a bit.

I think I'll be fine if no one gets in my way
2014-09-08 12:22 PM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last

I always considered myself to be a strong swimmer, but it took me quite a while to feel comfortable swimming in tri's.  I'd have great swims in the pool, but then swim horribly in a race.  It was all in my head and the thing that finally made it click for me was to ignore the fact that I was in a race and just concentrate on swimming from point A to point B at a comfortable, relaxed, pace.  But it was hard until I got to that point.

I would also support the viewpoint that 99.999% of us are doing this stuff as a hobby, and if you really aren't having fun and enjoying it, then nobody's forcing you to.  And that's perfectly OK.   Life's too short to make yourself miserable for no good reason.

Good luck.  Hope all goes well with your race.

Mark

 

2014-09-08 12:45 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last

I agree with the advice to get in a couple more OWS before your race if you can.  That way you can have a better experience without having to deal with race nerves and the potential for getting bumped.  Having a couple good experiences under your belt can give you something to positive to visualize while you're getting ready for your race rather than focusing on your fear.  Good luck!!



2014-09-08 1:43 PM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Originally posted by rodzilla

Originally posted by mike761

I will be doing the Oly Tri AC on Sunday. Where are you staying? I will be staying in Ocean City( 15 minute drive South of AC), If you are interested in some help I could do an Ocean or bay swim with on Saturday? Sounds like this is all in your head. If the crowds bother you it is usually easy enough to move out 25 yard from the main pack and swim in open water.


I believe you all are correct in saying it's a head thing. And if I do continue to do tris I will find a place to practice OWS at least every other week.

I appreciate the gesture mike but its kinda a weekend away from the 2yr old for me and the wife and we will be just getting there on sat and it might be tough to get away if your married you probably get it. I will staying at the trump plaza and for a place that's closing a few days later it is expensive. How that place went bankrupt charging that for rooms is beyond me...lol.

That being said I will have to just wing on sunday morning and I WILL be staying outside and trying to really focus on the slow long stroke and talk myself through each stroke.

I did just read that its a dock start and its kinda go when you feel ready so maybe that will help a bit.

I think I'll be fine if no one gets in my way


Getting away is tuff, I don't have to deal with that anymore but know where your coming from.

If you change your mind just let me know, I'll be around all day Saturday and am fairly flexable.
2014-09-08 2:09 PM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
I've just done a couple of them myself this summer but know exactly how you feel. I'll let you know what's worked WONDERS for me.

I practice the swim, over & over again if at all possible. I knew that this was going to be the weakest part for me--I also am a strong swimmer, but was not used to OWS--so made a point of getting to the site two days early to practice. Despite months of training, my first time in the water (practice), I completely panicked. Had it been race day, I'd never have finished. It took three hours for me to actually accomplish the swim...but what I did to get there was to 1) Get out of the water and calm down. 2) Broke the swim up into segments. Just did a leg at a time and stopped. 3) Lengthened the segments. 4) Did the actual event swim 3-4 times without stopping.

This was for my first tri, and it worked wonders...at the race, I came out of the water with the front runners, as opposed to what WOULD have happened had I not had the practice (coming out of the water in a canoe). I also felt like a million bucks once out, and the rest of the race was a BLAST.

If the people are a problem, then go out at the outside or at the very, very back of the pack. But I'll tell you--if you're a decent swimmer, there is nothing MORE inspiring than passing your first swimmer when you're new at it...it gives you a confidence I can't describe.

For my second race, I knew how much the practice had made a difference so went two days early and swam in the lake...wasn't able to swim the course, but was able to swim the distance in the lake. This time during the race I did have a bit more panic as there were WAY more swimmers in my wave and I ran into a lot more "traffic" at the buoys, but having battled through that panic in the first tri and in the practice swims, I could handle it much better.

I now am only practicing my swims in open water and will continue that until the weather forces me back into the pool. I'm swimming a lot LESS in practice, but only doing the OWS. The other aspect to this is that you really, REALLY underestimate the difference between lap swimming and the constancy of OWS, and it requires a lot of effort to slow down enough to maintain a speed that doesn't give you any breathlessness to add to any panic. So PRACTICE SWIMMING SLOWLY....learn to look back as you raise your head to breathe, lengthening the breath and allowing you to relax and calm yourself.

The trick really, really is to first get as comfortable as possible to avoid panic, but also then to learn to experience that panic and work through it, learning what helps it abate FOR YOU, and practice those techniques over and over again until the panic isn't the focus, the dealing with it is. Does that make sense?

I'm entering my third tri this weekend and haven't set foot in the lake in two weeks. So I KNOW I need to go over all of these several times this week as well as do a practice swim at the venue.

If the run and bike are comfortable for you, then the most important thing you can do this week is swim, in open water.
2014-09-08 3:19 PM
in reply to: rodzilla


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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
While I can't quite put myself in your same position I can offer a little advice. I was never a swimmer aside from playing in a pool until I started the sport. I seriously sucked at the first few times I tried. I was only using swimming as cross training for marathon training. I made it 100 yards before sucking wind. So I had literally zero background in swimming. My first EVER open water swim was at my first Half Ironman. My only two tris prior to that were in a pool. It was crowded, but it was a pool.
Maybe the thing I had going for me was I did nearly zero internet research about the sport when I started. I didn't know triathlon forums existed(they did, this was 2007). I simply didn't know that being scared was a normal thing or that there was a reason to be, so I never once stressed about open water. I might've actually been worried had I read more about what was to be expected.
Point being, you've already acknowledged that it's in your head. So, get it out of your head. Yes, from my experience it's as simple as that. Although open water swims didn't scare me, I did have major anger issues during them. If someone touched me, bumped me, kicked me, whatever, I'd take it personally, think they were doing it on purpose and get mad. So the year I started training for my first Ironman, I knew I had to take a different plan. As if getting pissed off for the first 10 minutes of a race was a "plan." I basically chose not to feel that way. I put myself front and center in all the races I did that year and learned to embrace the chaos. It really took no time at all to completely change my mentality. I now actually enjoy the chaos. It was making a conscious effort to change my thinking.
I realize fear and anger are different beasts. But in the end its all a mindset. I really believe one can shift their focus from negative to positive. If you were a weak swimmer I'd have different advice, but based on the times you listed that's not the case. Your fear is not warranted at all. Make an effort to enjoy the chaos. Instead of fearing the encounter with another swimmer, actively seek them out. Take a peek when you're sighting and look for a swimmer to catch. Try and find the feet. I really think it's something you can will to change. You're a strong swimmer. Convince yourself of that and you'll enjoy the chase. Good luck to you!
2014-09-08 3:34 PM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Originally posted by rodzilla

Well Im doing the TRIAC in atlantic city this sunday and I'm excited but really scared considering how my first swim went a few weeks back. Struggled to say the least floated on my back outta shear panic more than I wanted to.

I almost wish I didn't do the other tri a few weeks back cause then it was just race anxiety and not straight fear like it is now.

If this sprint swim does not go better this week I will be saying goodbye to the triathlon world and going back to road race and OCRs.

Someone said that this is a treading water type start so again not what I want to do at all.

I don't consider myself a bad swimmer(pool swims 450yds in 7-8mins rough estimate) I just don't know what to do if someone is in front of me. so I panic and to back and float and slowing move forward staring at the blue sky and praying that it ends soon.

I'll know the minute I crawl out of the water whether I will do another one next yr or not.

ONE thing is certain of my 30 or so races(marathons and 15mile mountain endurance/obstacle courses ) this will be my favorite for sure. for many reasons!!!!!

OVERCOME THE FEAR at least one more time!!!!!!


It's a choice...you don't have to continue doing tris, but you also don't have to let a bad experience or two force you out. Sounds like you may want a way out. Lots of folks would have had one bad experience like you did and went out and looked for massive opportunities to work on comfort in open water...pracitcing deep water starts, simulating mass starts, swimming with other people...you can do all this in a pool.

You get to choose.
2014-09-09 12:03 AM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
I did the Sprint Tri AC last year (doing the Olympic this year) -- and it should be a nice setting for you. This is a very well put on race, and here are a few things to expect and a few reasons to get excited and try to relax.

1) It is time trial in groups of 8 to 15 sent out every 15 to 30 seconds -- you start when you are good and ready. If for some reason you absolutely can't do it, notify a volunteer. They will let you complete the other legs of the tri.

2) It is off a floating dock 8" off the water (not treading water) -- when you cross the end of the dock and jump into the water, your time starts. You don't spend time treading water for the start.

3) It is in the back canal type setup of Atlantic City -- Very still, very calm, no waves. There was nearly 50 ocean lifeguard volunteers lining the swim course last year to make sure everyone was safe. They do it right with safety here -- nearly 1000 volunteers throughout the entire course and transition. You will have 1000+ athletes and their fans cheering you on

4) You are never more than 100 feet from one side or the other of the canal.

and 5) They host the Mid Atlantic Regional Paratriathlon Championships. Before the sprint, the paratriathletes go and it was one of the most inspiring and humbling things I have ever seen. It really helped put things into perspective.

Most importantly -- take your time and have fun.

I will be setting up Saturday morning and going to the first scheduled briefing meeting. Feel free to send me a message if you want to meet up to go over anything else. Good luck!


2014-09-09 6:48 AM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Originally posted by happyscientist

I have always been comfortable in the water.


Bingo, this is the answer. From the sound of it, you are generally cool in the water, at least in a pool. Could be your comfort level falls off in the black water of an OWS. If so, get out and do some lake or ocean swims. It does not matter how deep the water is if you can swim. If it is the scrum that makes yo uncomfortable, wait a minute after your wave starts. Likely you will not have people swimming directly in front of you this way, at least not for much of the race. All of this is conquerable with a bit of planning and practice.
2014-09-09 10:29 AM
in reply to: nfp105

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Originally posted by nfp105

I did the Sprint Tri AC last year (doing the Olympic this year) -- and it should be a nice setting for you. This is a very well put on race, and here are a few things to expect and a few reasons to get excited and try to relax.

1) It is time trial in groups of 8 to 15 sent out every 15 to 30 seconds -- you start when you are good and ready. If for some reason you absolutely can't do it, notify a volunteer. They will let you complete the other legs of the tri.

2) It is off a floating dock 8" off the water (not treading water) -- when you cross the end of the dock and jump into the water, your time starts. You don't spend time treading water for the start.

3) It is in the back canal type setup of Atlantic City -- Very still, very calm, no waves. There was nearly 50 ocean lifeguard volunteers lining the swim course last year to make sure everyone was safe. They do it right with safety here -- nearly 1000 volunteers throughout the entire course and transition. You will have 1000+ athletes and their fans cheering you on

4) You are never more than 100 feet from one side or the other of the canal.

and 5) They host the Mid Atlantic Regional Paratriathlon Championships. Before the sprint, the paratriathletes go and it was one of the most inspiring and humbling things I have ever seen. It really helped put things into perspective.

Most importantly -- take your time and have fun.

I will be setting up Saturday morning and going to the first scheduled briefing meeting. Feel free to send me a message if you want to meet up to go over anything else. Good luck!


All of this sounds great!!! Thanks for the info. I plan on attending the 1:00 briefing as well. If all goes to plan wife and I show up by 11ish get bike checked and have lunch at the seafood fest hit the briefing which I imagine is what 10-15mins? right? then over to hotel to check in

Would love to say hi and meet u.

A huge thanks to all who replied and it seems I need OWS practice and that is not gunna happen by sunday morning so I will just try and overcome the fear in the water on sunday. I just need to keep moving my arms and taking myself out of flipping to back
2014-09-15 10:25 AM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
So how did you do?
2014-09-15 12:30 PM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Inquiring minds want to know!
2014-09-15 3:45 PM
in reply to: rodzilla

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
My first two years plus of tri I spent swimming the breast stroke - a very bad version of it. The reason - if someone simply touched me I would freak out and convince my self I would drown. I was always one of the last ones out of the water, but always made up for it on the bike and run. For now, do the breast stroke because you can always see where you are going and where everyone else is. nobody said you had to be fast on the swim, you just need to finish. plus moving via breast stroke is faster than floating on your back.


2014-09-16 7:19 AM
in reply to: sheesleeva

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Originally posted by sheesleeva

My first two years plus of tri I spent swimming the breast stroke - a very bad version of it. The reason - if someone simply touched me I would freak out and convince my self I would drown. I was always one of the last ones out of the water, but always made up for it on the bike and run. For now, do the breast stroke because you can always see where you are going and where everyone else is. nobody said you had to be fast on the swim, you just need to finish. plus moving via breast stroke is faster than floating on your back.


^^^ very bad advise- breaststroke is a hazard to everyone else in the triathlon!!!! This is like telling someone to on the bike to swerve back and forth at 12mph using the whole lane.

There is always plenty of room to swim in any open water swim. swim to the side out of everyone ways if its that bad.
2014-09-16 9:27 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by sheesleeva My first two years plus of tri I spent swimming the breast stroke - a very bad version of it. The reason - if someone simply touched me I would freak out and convince my self I would drown. I was always one of the last ones out of the water, but always made up for it on the bike and run. For now, do the breast stroke because you can always see where you are going and where everyone else is. nobody said you had to be fast on the swim, you just need to finish. plus moving via breast stroke is faster than floating on your back.
^^^ very bad advise- breaststroke is a hazard to everyone else in the triathlon!!!! This is like telling someone to on the bike to swerve back and forth at 12mph using the whole lane. There is always plenty of room to swim in any open water swim. swim to the side out of everyone ways if its that bad.

I disagree - if the OP needs to breast stroke to keep going - then do it.  There are no rules about which strokes to use.  Definitely, do what you can to get out of the way because it is the courteous thing to do.  But do what you need to do - be it: go to a kayak to take a breath, do the breaststroke to get your breathing under control, do a few back strokes. The swim can fee like survival for your first races.   

I am an adult-onset swimmer and my first couple of races were certainly a mixture of things to manage the panic.   Don't worry about anyone else if you're panicky - more experienced swimmer can manage to get around you (and usually, even in murky water I can see a breaststroke kick and try to get around) and if you know you're nervous be sure to start at the back of your wave to stay out of the scrum.  

Best of luck

2014-09-16 11:39 AM
in reply to: juniperjen

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last
Originally posted by juniperjen

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by sheesleeva My first two years plus of tri I spent swimming the breast stroke - a very bad version of it. The reason - if someone simply touched me I would freak out and convince my self I would drown. I was always one of the last ones out of the water, but always made up for it on the bike and run. For now, do the breast stroke because you can always see where you are going and where everyone else is. nobody said you had to be fast on the swim, you just need to finish. plus moving via breast stroke is faster than floating on your back.
^^^ very bad advise- breaststroke is a hazard to everyone else in the triathlon!!!! This is like telling someone to on the bike to swerve back and forth at 12mph using the whole lane. There is always plenty of room to swim in any open water swim. swim to the side out of everyone ways if its that bad.

I disagree - if the OP needs to breast stroke to keep going - then do it.  There are no rules about which strokes to use.  Definitely, do what you can to get out of the way because it is the courteous thing to do.  But do what you need to do - be it: go to a kayak to take a breath, do the breaststroke to get your breathing under control, do a few back strokes. The swim can fee like survival for your first races.   

I am an adult-onset swimmer and my first couple of races were certainly a mixture of things to manage the panic.   Don't worry about anyone else if you're panicky - more experienced swimmer can manage to get around you (and usually, even in murky water I can see a breaststroke kick and try to get around) and if you know you're nervous be sure to start at the back of your wave to stay out of the scrum.  

Best of luck




Disagree if you want, its still bad advise!

The OP is not a bad swimmer he has panic issues in the water, telling someone to do breaststroke which then puts everyone around him in danger is bad advise. You can't always see someone doing breastroke in front of you, it depends on how murky the water is, how fast your coming up on them, what side your breathing to vs what side they are on.

Yes us more experienced swimmers will get past but that does not mean it's ok to kick us in the face or chest or ribs.
2014-09-16 2:27 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: 2nd tri this sunday and might be my last

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by juniperjen

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by sheesleeva My first two years plus of tri I spent swimming the breast stroke - a very bad version of it. The reason - if someone simply touched me I would freak out and convince my self I would drown. I was always one of the last ones out of the water, but always made up for it on the bike and run. For now, do the breast stroke because you can always see where you are going and where everyone else is. nobody said you had to be fast on the swim, you just need to finish. plus moving via breast stroke is faster than floating on your back.
^^^ very bad advise- breaststroke is a hazard to everyone else in the triathlon!!!! This is like telling someone to on the bike to swerve back and forth at 12mph using the whole lane. There is always plenty of room to swim in any open water swim. swim to the side out of everyone ways if its that bad.

I disagree - if the OP needs to breast stroke to keep going - then do it.  There are no rules about which strokes to use.  Definitely, do what you can to get out of the way because it is the courteous thing to do.  But do what you need to do - be it: go to a kayak to take a breath, do the breaststroke to get your breathing under control, do a few back strokes. The swim can fee like survival for your first races.   

I am an adult-onset swimmer and my first couple of races were certainly a mixture of things to manage the panic.   Don't worry about anyone else if you're panicky - more experienced swimmer can manage to get around you (and usually, even in murky water I can see a breaststroke kick and try to get around) and if you know you're nervous be sure to start at the back of your wave to stay out of the scrum.  

Best of luck

Disagree if you want, its still bad advise! The OP is not a bad swimmer he has panic issues in the water, telling someone to do breaststroke which then puts everyone around him in danger is bad advise. You can't always see someone doing breastroke in front of you, it depends on how murky the water is, how fast your coming up on them, what side your breathing to vs what side they are on. Yes us more experienced swimmers will get past but that does not mean it's ok to kick us in the face or chest or ribs.

I'd rather someone who is having a hard time on the swim, be able to find a way to calm down than worry about proper ettiquette and that somehow the breast stroke is 'bad'.  The scrum happens with all strokes - get in good and tight with other folks and contact is bound to happen regardless of stroke. 

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