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Marathon Neuriticism...
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 2014-11-06 6:47 PM |
New user  72 |  Subject: Marathon Neuriticism...Hi y'all, I've been going back and forth on this and figured BT could give me some opinions. I've got a marathon in 3 weeks and 3 days. I did my half ironman race 5 weeks and 4 days ago (23 min PR, finally feel like I actually raced the distance, woohoo, all that good stuff!). During that buildup, I was fully comfortable with a 13 mile run, and ran 20-25 miles per week, but didn't go beyond that. I took the week after as a complete recovery week, and then got hit with the allergy plague, so I only made it through 22 miles that week (no long run). Built up to 40 miles the next week with a 16.5 long run, and 50 miles the next week with a super awesome 20 miler (just one of those runs where everything comes together and you feel amazing the whole time). Pretty happy with the first "block" of training going well. Took every run at easy pace, whatever was comfortable and chatty that day and kept my HR in zone 1-2. I took a stepback week last week of 30 miles with a 14 mile long run, and was prepping for my highest mileage week this week - 30 mid week miles with a 23 miler. This was my husband's idea (hi jetsers, I'm talking about you :D)- that it would give us a little more confidence going into the race, only having to tack on 5k to the end of our longest run, not 10k. I agreed with the caveat I might peel away before that if I thought it was doing more harm than good. However, he's resting to heal an injury, so I'd be going it alone and I'm not convinced a 23 mile solo training run is for me. So, I'm debating what to do. I feel like it might be useful for me to do a shorter long run with a more intense effort in there (say, 3 miles warmup, 10 at m-pace, 3 miles cooldown), because I feel awkward at m-pace right now in training (feels too easy to be a hard run, and too hard to be an easy run, if that makes any sense). But I'm not sure if the lack of long run mileage (only having done a 20 and 16.5 as my two longest) will hurt me. I was thinking of rocking that, doing a 20 next weekend, and then having 2 weeks one day to taper, but the internet collective's wisdom has told me that this would be BAD BAD VERY BAD, so I'm rethinking this. Some tidbits - easy pace for me is about 11:30 min/miles, race pace goal is around 10:30-10:45 min/miles, I've done this build from this HIM to a fall marathon 3 times (so this short cycle isn't new), I feel like I'm recovering better than ever at the price of ditching delicious bread, pasta, and rice, the long Saturday runs aren't hampering Monday's runs (Sunday is a day off), my favorite color is blue, and I like long walks on the beach.  So I guess the point is, if you were me, 3 weeks out of a marathon, would you... 11/8 - suck it up and slow 20 miler by myself 11/15 - 16 with 10 at m-pace 11/22 - something short like 10 with 5 at m-pace 11/30 - RACE! OR 11/8 - 16 with 10 at m-pace 11/15 - slow 20 miles hopefully with husband 11/22 - 10 with 5 at m-pace 11/30 - RACE! OR... 11/8 - 16 with 10 at m-pace 11/15 - 14 with 7 at m-pace 11/22 - 10 with 5 at m-pace 11/30 - RACE! ...advice wanted, though I'm pretty sure I'm just trying to talk myself out of a solo 20 that I probably should do... ? Thanks BT! |
| 2014-11-06 8:33 PM in reply to: Quix |
1055 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Well, if I'm going to be brutally honest with you, I'd say that you already botched this up pretty good by averaging only 20-25 mpw and taking a full week off 5 weeks out. Then you ramp up the mileage to include a 50 mile week out of right field? 23 is overkill especially with your previous training. 20 is more than enough, at your pace, you'll be out there long enough just doing that much. Good luck. |
| 2014-11-06 8:45 PM in reply to: #5065862 |
| 1053 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... I'd go with the last option. You should be as race specific as possible now. I'd also be careful day to day, and pay attention to health (injuries, even minor) and overall fatigue. You did ramp up your running a bit more than would normally be advised. But, if you feel good, I would stick to lower overall mileage, and go with the marathon pace training. Going long now for one run will really do nothing for your overall fitness. Getting your body comfortable with your goal pace, in my opinion, is far more important at this point. Good luck! |
| 2014-11-06 9:23 PM in reply to: ImSore |
New user 72 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... I guess I should clarify - 20-25 mpw is the base I keep during half ironman training, but I'm also doing 3-6 hours per week of biking and 1-2 hours a week of swimming during that time. While it's not specifically running, it has translated into being able to ramp up my run miles real quick when I drop the bike and the swim every year. So the training looks like... 2 months of HIM training (10+ hours per week total) 9 weeks out - HIM 8 weeks out - recovery week 7 weeks out - 22 miles run (planned 35, got sick) 6 weeks out - 40 miles w/16.5 long run 5 weeks out - 50 miles w/20 mile long run 4 weeks out - 30 miles w/14 mile long run (stepback week) Change anything? |
| 2014-11-07 8:56 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 3145   Scottsdale, AZ | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Your swim and bike don't matter, sorry. You haven't run enough and especially not to justify a 24 miler, not even really 20 with such low volume. Run 16 easy and taper for 10 days. I'd probably back off my MP as well or you're really going to regret it.
Probably not what you want to hear but just trying to be straight forward with you. Edited by thebigb 2014-11-07 8:57 AM |
| 2014-11-07 9:27 AM in reply to: Quix |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Going to agree with everyone else, though it's not what you want to hear. None of those plans are going to make a big difference for your race, but C offers the least risk and I'd go with that (and B makes the least sense to me). Arrive healthy at the start and suck it up for the 26 on race day. And have fun! |
| 2014-11-07 10:47 AM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
928 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... A lot of people think going longer (like 23-24 mile long runs) will make them "more confident" in the race about finishing 26 miles, but really all it does is tire you out and force you to need more recovery (unless your normal volume is well over 80 miles per week). Your mileage is too low to justify that kind of long run distance. It might make you more confident about finishing 26 miles, but it's not really better training. Better training would actually be shorter long runs but more mileage overall. That said, I have no doubt you will FINISH the race with any of those plans, so just do what feels best for you. |
| 2014-11-07 12:30 PM in reply to: Quix |
| 1055 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Originally posted by Quix I guess I should clarify - 20-25 mpw is the base I keep during half ironman training, but I'm also doing 3-6 hours per week of biking and 1-2 hours a week of swimming during that time. While it's not specifically running, it has translated into being able to ramp up my run miles real quick when I drop the bike and the swim every year. So the training looks like... 2 months of HIM training (10+ hours per week total) 9 weeks out - HIM 8 weeks out - recovery week 7 weeks out - 22 miles run (planned 35, got sick) 6 weeks out - 40 miles w/16.5 long run 5 weeks out - 50 miles w/20 mile long run 4 weeks out - 30 miles w/14 mile long run (stepback week) Change anything? Honestly, no. Look, if you can belt out a 40 and then a 50 mile week and not hurt yourself, you'll be able to finish your marathon. And if your goal is simply to complete, you're good to go. What you do in the next two weeks isn't really going to make or break you. Triathlon training does not build run specific muscular endurance, which is important at the marathon distance. Your triathlon endurance will get you to mile 20-21. But past that, its going to be a suffer fest until your done, you just won't have the muscular endurance. Shrug, maybe I'm wrong, you've signed up for it, don't let me talk you out of it, good luck. |
| 2014-11-09 11:10 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Originally posted by ziggie204 Originally posted by Quix I guess I should clarify - 20-25 mpw is the base I keep during half ironman training, but I'm also doing 3-6 hours per week of biking and 1-2 hours a week of swimming during that time. While it's not specifically running, it has translated into being able to ramp up my run miles real quick when I drop the bike and the swim every year. So the training looks like... 2 months of HIM training (10+ hours per week total) 9 weeks out - HIM 8 weeks out - recovery week 7 weeks out - 22 miles run (planned 35, got sick) 6 weeks out - 40 miles w/16.5 long run 5 weeks out - 50 miles w/20 mile long run 4 weeks out - 30 miles w/14 mile long run (stepback week) ...and here I am. Last year I did really well beyond a mental meltdown between miles 15-20 (and finally got it together the last 10k). The 20 two weeks ago went amazingly, I felt awesome the whole time and didn't need a lot of extra recovery. Change anything? Honestly, no. Look, if you can belt out a 40 and then a 50 mile week and not hurt yourself, you'll be able to finish your marathon. And if your goal is simply to complete, you're good to go. What you do in the next two weeks isn't really going to make or break you. Triathlon training does not build run specific muscular endurance, which is important at the marathon distance. Your triathlon endurance will get you to mile 20-21. But past that, its going to be a suffer fest until your done, you just won't have the muscular endurance. Shrug, maybe I'm wrong, you've signed up for it, don't let me talk you out of it, good luck. I think you are right on the mark. In my own experience I have ran 2 marathons.....never ran further than 16 miles training for either one. In each case I was coming off a big triathlon build/race within 6 weeks of the marathon. Both marathons were the same.....I had a blast, and don't really remember the last 3 miles. Edited by Left Brain 2014-11-09 11:11 PM |
| 2014-11-10 9:57 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 3145 Scottsdale, AZ | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by ziggie204 Originally posted by Quix I guess I should clarify - 20-25 mpw is the base I keep during half ironman training, but I'm also doing 3-6 hours per week of biking and 1-2 hours a week of swimming during that time. While it's not specifically running, it has translated into being able to ramp up my run miles real quick when I drop the bike and the swim every year. So the training looks like... 2 months of HIM training (10+ hours per week total) 9 weeks out - HIM 8 weeks out - recovery week 7 weeks out - 22 miles run (planned 35, got sick) 6 weeks out - 40 miles w/16.5 long run 5 weeks out - 50 miles w/20 mile long run 4 weeks out - 30 miles w/14 mile long run (stepback week) ...and here I am. Last year I did really well beyond a mental meltdown between miles 15-20 (and finally got it together the last 10k). The 20 two weeks ago went amazingly, I felt awesome the whole time and didn't need a lot of extra recovery. Change anything? Honestly, no. Look, if you can belt out a 40 and then a 50 mile week and not hurt yourself, you'll be able to finish your marathon. And if your goal is simply to complete, you're good to go. What you do in the next two weeks isn't really going to make or break you. Triathlon training does not build run specific muscular endurance, which is important at the marathon distance. Your triathlon endurance will get you to mile 20-21. But past that, its going to be a suffer fest until your done, you just won't have the muscular endurance. Shrug, maybe I'm wrong, you've signed up for it, don't let me talk you out of it, good luck. I think you are right on the mark. In my own experience I have ran 2 marathons.....never ran further than 16 miles training for either one. In each case I was coming off a big triathlon build/race within 6 weeks of the marathon. Both marathons were the same.....I had a blast, and don't really remember the last 3 miles. Even on 120 mile weeks, if you remember the last 3 miles you did something wrong |
| 2014-11-11 7:11 PM in reply to: Quix |
Regular 585 Pueblo, Colorado | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... I've done this build from this HIM to a fall marathon 3 times (so this short cycle isn't new), I feel like I'm recovering better than ever at the price of ditching delicious bread, pasta, and rice, the long Saturday runs aren't hampering Monday's runs (Sunday is a day off), my favorite color is blue, and I like long walks on the beach. You've done this cycle three times, and it works for you. Adding another 20 miler at this point won't have a positive, significant impact on how you do in the Marathon. Good luck and enjoy! |
| 2014-11-11 10:47 PM in reply to: jennifer_runs |
| 5 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Originally posted by jennifer_runs A lot of people think going longer (like 23-24 mile long runs) will make them "more confident" in the race about finishing 26 miles, but really all it does is tire you out and force you to need more recovery (unless your normal volume is well over 80 miles per week). Your mileage is too low to justify that kind of long run distance. It might make you more confident about finishing 26 miles, but it's not really better training. Better training would actually be shorter long runs but more mileage overall. That said, I have no doubt you will FINISH the race with any of those plans, so just do what feels best for you. Totally agree with this one. Mileage is so important and it doesn't need to be poured into your long run. I also suggest the shorter long run but if you want to feel more confident with doing "work" for 26 miles maybe split your long run up into run & bike. I am new to both triathlon and marathon training but have found that when I do decide to tackle 16+ long runs, I would do like 10 mile runs with 6-10 mile bike in the weeks leading up. I would get the work in without a lot of damage to the legs. I feel this is perfect to supplement both your triathlon training and marathon training! |
| 2014-11-12 10:16 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 3145 Scottsdale, AZ | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Originally posted by laura_o Originally posted by jennifer_runs A lot of people think going longer (like 23-24 mile long runs) will make them "more confident" in the race about finishing 26 miles, but really all it does is tire you out and force you to need more recovery (unless your normal volume is well over 80 miles per week). Your mileage is too low to justify that kind of long run distance. It might make you more confident about finishing 26 miles, but it's not really better training. Better training would actually be shorter long runs but more mileage overall. That said, I have no doubt you will FINISH the race with any of those plans, so just do what feels best for you. Totally agree with this one. Mileage is so important and it doesn't need to be poured into your long run. I also suggest the shorter long run but if you want to feel more confident with doing "work" for 26 miles maybe split your long run up into run & bike. I am new to both triathlon and marathon training but have found that when I do decide to tackle 16+ long runs, I would do like 10 mile runs with 6-10 mile bike in the weeks leading up. I would get the work in without a lot of damage to the legs. I feel this is perfect to supplement both your triathlon training and marathon training!
You'd be better off splitting the long run into two runs; say one of 14-16 miles and another in the evening of ~4-6miles. Edited by thebigb 2014-11-12 10:16 AM |
| 2014-11-14 12:13 AM in reply to: thebigb |
New user 72 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Hey everyone, thanks for the advice. I ended up going out with the idea of doing an easy 16, and only adding intensity or miles if I felt freaking awesome. It was a fantastic day - my stride and cadence felt awesome, so I ended up doing 7 miles easy, 9 miles at m-pace (10:20-10:40, which oddly enough happened almost effortlessly), and then added 2 miles to cool down for a total of 18, and I wasn't completely wiped at the end. It's the fastest overall long run I've ever done and did much more for my confidence than an easy 20 or even 23. If I can have a day like that at the marathon I'll be happy. Just to be cautious, I did ALL THE RECOVERY THINGS after (ice bath, electrical shockie stimulation, icing, legs up, chiro adjustment, massage) and am feeling good heading into taper. At first I admit I was a little "grrr" about the negative feedback at first, but then I got really happy. I've done this shorty cycle 3 times now, so I know I can do it, but I've never done a marathon with more training... and I'm signed up for another one in 3 months. So, after racing and a little downtime, I get to ramp back up and really put in the work, so we'll see how much I can improve there! Rock on with all the runs, bikes, and swims! |
| 2014-11-15 2:43 PM in reply to: Quix |
| 928 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... At first I admit I was a little "grrr" about the negative feedback at first, but then I got really happy. I've done this shorty cycle 3 times now, so I know I can do it, but I've never done a marathon with more training... and I'm signed up for another one in 3 months. So, after racing and a little downtime, I get to ramp back up and really put in the work, so we'll see how much I can improve there! I hope you didn't find my initial reply "negative." You've done well with the lower-mileage training plan and like I said I have no doubt you'll be able to finish the marathon strong-- but I worried that you would do more harm than good if you tried that super-long training run. Good luck and let us know how it goes. |
| 2014-11-15 8:48 PM in reply to: jennifer_runs |
New user 72 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... By negative, I meant "don't go run all the miles" constructive criticism, not negative mean-bad. Will do. I'm getting excited, two weeks and one day to go!!! I get on a cruise the next day (pretty sure the best marathon recovery involves beaches) but I'll report back soon after. |
| 2014-12-12 3:33 PM in reply to: Quix |
New user 72 | Subject: RE: Marathon Neuriticism... Checking back in after getting back from the race and vacation. The result was a little good, a little circumstantial, and a little of some folks in this thread getting to say I told you so! Husband's owie knee ended up being three small fractures (!!!) so he was out. I probably didn't do my best at maintaining the effort I should have during taper since I lost my run buddy, but I still had some pretty great runs so I was hoping for the best. The day of the marathon, the weather we got was mid-70s, humid, and full sun. No bueno. I did great until about mile 16, struggled from 16-18, picked it up 18-22 latching onto a pacer, struggled again 23-24 and lost the pacer, and finished strong with my last two miles being my fastest of the day (and apparently ALMOST caught him but not quite). I PR'd by a few minutes under much more difficult conditions than last year, but didn't do nearly as well as I thought I would. I really don't know what happened at 16-18. I've had ZERO problems with long runs from 16-20 miles, I did an 18 mile run 3 weeks out holding a faster average pace than I was at at that mile 16, but I just broke down at the race there for a few miles until I was able to get it together. 23-24 was straight muscle cramping and fatigue. I wasn't really surprised at that. Partly the heat, and yeah, probably could have used some more long runs as well. I'm glad I have another one in 3 months so I can hopefully smash that time and come in closer to my goal. The good news is that after being on vacation for a week and spending many hours in the ocean and doing lots of 12 oz curls at the pool bar (and then detoxing a little, heh), my body feels pretty great and not too beat from the experience. Thanks again to everyone for your advice. |
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