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2014-12-09 7:00 AM


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Subject: Swim stroke rate
I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?


2014-12-09 7:04 AM
in reply to: DavidJG2

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by DavidJG2

I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?


why do you count strokes or strokes/min? I have 35 years of competitive swimming experience and have no idea how many stroke/min I swim.
2014-12-09 7:42 AM
in reply to: DavidJG2

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
What is your pace and strokes per 25m?

Shane
2014-12-09 8:38 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Richland, Washington
Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by DavidJG2

I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?


why do you count strokes or strokes/min? I have 35 years of competitive swimming experience and have no idea how many stroke/min I swim.


I second this.
2014-12-09 9:28 AM
in reply to: Swimaway

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
I only just started paying closer attention to my stroke rate because as I try to improve technique and bi lateral breathing, I am wanting to breathe every 3 strokes consistently, but screwing up all sorts of rhythm because I believe my stroke rate is a little too slow (I realized I glide a bit too much, causing stroke rate to drop, but momentum as well) - Could be a factor - just throwing it out there
2014-12-09 11:02 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by DavidJG2

I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?


why do you count strokes or strokes/min? I have 35 years of competitive swimming experience and have no idea how many stroke/min I swim.


DPS and Stroke Rate are basic elements that well known & respected coaches have been paying attention to for decades. Props to the OP for awareness.

here's an interview with bob bowman 2004, mentioning DPS & SR as one tiny example...read interviews, books and articles from top coaches and they discuss these topics as freely as they discuss starts and turns. Swim coach stopwatches have a stroke rate calculation built in...

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/articles/swimtechnique/article...


2014-12-09 11:03 AM
in reply to: DavidJG2

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by DavidJG2

I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?


What's your rate, what's your SPL and what's your pace?

2014-12-09 12:06 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by DavidJG2

I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?


why do you count strokes or strokes/min? I have 35 years of competitive swimming experience and have no idea how many stroke/min I swim.


DPS and Stroke Rate are basic elements that well known & respected coaches have been paying attention to for decades. Props to the OP for awareness.

here's an interview with bob bowman 2004, mentioning DPS & SR as one tiny example...read interviews, books and articles from top coaches and they discuss these topics as freely as they discuss starts and turns. Swim coach stopwatches have a stroke rate calculation built in...

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/articles/swimtechnique/article...


But they refer to stroke rate dropping off during a race which is indicative of going out too fast, you don't really need to count strokes to know this. As a swimmer(or a coach) you know when your turn over is slowing. There is no ideal number for everyone. Even for an individual; the ideal number for phelps swimming a 50 is different than his ideal number for swimming a 500.
Even if you try and figure out your ideal number for distance swimming in triathlons what will you use in open water to mark that? You don't have markers every 25 yards to evaluate your stroke count. It's better to just swim and get a good feel for how fast your turn over is and maintain a good stroke. If you swim enough this is not hard to do.

Just because top coaches are paying attention to it does not mean most triathetes should be. There is a world of difference between top swimmers and the large majority of triathletes I don't think most people on here understands how fast a top swimmer really is. Bowman needs to nit pick every little detail to keep phelps at the top.
2014-12-09 12:26 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by DavidJG2 I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?
why do you count strokes or strokes/min? I have 35 years of competitive swimming experience and have no idea how many stroke/min I swim.

Since swimming is the most technical of the tri disciplines, it seems somewhat logical to track the metrics you have available.  It's certainly not manditory to track tempo and SPL in order to be a good swimmer, but I think they can provide useful information.  Just like you don't need a stopwatch/gps/HRH to become a good runner, but it can give you some pretty good feedback to help you improve.

When I was an AG swimmer (many, many years ago), mostly swimming sprints, all I really worried about was my turnover rate and going fast as I could. 

Now that I'm swimming longer distances (and am also a lot older), I'm increasingly focused on my stroke efficiency and energy management.  Tracking my SPL, tempo and HR gives me some pretty good feedback in that regard.

I've always been interested in the technical side of swimming, going back to the late, great Doc Counsilman and his seminal book "The Science of Swimming" back in the 70's.  I've gotten re-focused on it over the past year, after having attended a Dr. G workshop, and following an online training program that Coach Suzanne led on the TI site over the summer.

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

2014-12-09 2:17 PM
in reply to: RedCorvette

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by DavidJG2 I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?
why do you count strokes or strokes/min? I have 35 years of competitive swimming experience and have no idea how many stroke/min I swim.

Since swimming is the most technical of the tri disciplines, it seems somewhat logical to track the metrics you have available.  It's certainly not manditory to track tempo and SPL in order to be a good swimmer, but I think they can provide useful information.  Just like you don't need a stopwatch/gps/HRH to become a good runner, but it can give you some pretty good feedback to help you improve.

When I was an AG swimmer (many, many years ago), mostly swimming sprints, all I really worried about was my turnover rate and going fast as I could. 

Now that I'm swimming longer distances (and am also a lot older), I'm increasingly focused on my stroke efficiency and energy management.  Tracking my SPL, tempo and HR gives me some pretty good feedback in that regard.

I've always been interested in the technical side of swimming, going back to the late, great Doc Counsilman and his seminal book "The Science of Swimming" back in the 70's.  I've gotten re-focused on it over the past year, after having attended a Dr. G workshop, and following an online training program that Coach Suzanne led on the TI site over the summer.

Mark

 

 

 

 

 




If its a useful metric then go ahead and use it, however what use is knowing how many strokes it takes you to go 25 yards? If it tells you something that you can't figure out by perception in the water its useless to you in a race anyway. It's not like running or cycling where you can look at a heart rate monitor or power meter and see that you have gotten caught up in the competition and are putting out too much effort. Your in the water with wave and people running into you, and HR monitors don't work(Do any work in the water?). Even if they did are you stopping to look at your watch? There are so many other thing to worry about during the swim before worrying about stroke count.
2014-12-09 2:37 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

You can't take virtual power with you to a race, but you can train with it to develop your ability and to enhance your perception. Some of these metrics or stats don't have to be available 100% of the time. Using them when able can leave one better of than if they had never used them at all.

Some HR monitors do work in the water now.



2014-12-09 2:40 PM
in reply to: DavidJG2

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by DavidJG2

I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?


take a look at this
http://www.swimsmooth.com/strokerate.html

and then there are links to improve/change things

2014-12-09 3:40 PM
in reply to: 0

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by DavidJG2 I noticed my swim strike rate has dropped about 6 strokes per min, any drills I can do to get strike rate back and increase?
why do you count strokes or strokes/min? I have 35 years of competitive swimming experience and have no idea how many stroke/min I swim.

Since swimming is the most technical of the tri disciplines, it seems somewhat logical to track the metrics you have available.  It's certainly not manditory to track tempo and SPL in order to be a good swimmer, but I think they can provide useful information.  Just like you don't need a stopwatch/gps/HRH to become a good runner, but it can give you some pretty good feedback to help you improve.

When I was an AG swimmer (many, many years ago), mostly swimming sprints, all I really worried about was my turnover rate and going fast as I could. 

Now that I'm swimming longer distances (and am also a lot older), I'm increasingly focused on my stroke efficiency and energy management.  Tracking my SPL, tempo and HR gives me some pretty good feedback in that regard.

I've always been interested in the technical side of swimming, going back to the late, great Doc Counsilman and his seminal book "The Science of Swimming" back in the 70's.  I've gotten re-focused on it over the past year, after having attended a Dr. G workshop, and following an online training program that Coach Suzanne led on the TI site over the summer.

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

If its a useful metric then go ahead and use it, however what use is knowing how many strokes it takes you to go 25 yards? If it tells you something that you can't figure out by perception in the water its useless to you in a race anyway. It's not like running or cycling where you can look at a heart rate monitor or power meter and see that you have gotten caught up in the competition and are putting out too much effort. Your in the water with wave and people running into you, and HR monitors don't work(Do any work in the water?). Even if they did are you stopping to look at your watch? There are so many other thing to worry about during the swim before worrying about stroke count.

I look at SPL as a measure of stroke efficiency, i.e., how much are my stroke mechanics  actually propelling me forward, versus just stirring up water.  One of the things I've been working on (and found very challenging) is to maintain my same baseline SPL, while increasing my tempo, i.e., turnover rate.  I've seen too many swimmers try to get faster by just increasing their turnover rate.  If they can't maintain their stroke form then at some point they just end up slashing arouind and spinning their wheels inefficiently in the water while burning a lot of energy.  Obviously, the objective is to get faster while staying efficient. 

The pool provides a "laboratory" with relatively controlled conditions that lets you work on isolating and engraining stroke fundamentals.  Yes, OW race condtiions add variables and forces you to adapt on the fly.  But I think it's better making adjustments from a solid fundamental base developed in the pool.  And obviously OWS practice helps; for example I know that increasing my tempo and shortening my stroke a bit helps swimming in swells or choppy water.  (As a sidenote, knowing my average distance per stroke has been useful in helping me to better gauge my progress in OW races without the lane lines or other references you have in a pool.  I know that for every 25 strokes that I'm going to travel approximately 25M.).

I watched the US short course nationals over the weekend found myself counting strokes.  It was enlightening to see how the top freestylers like Connor Jaeger were doing about 12 strokes per 25yd. (while I currently struggle to stay around 20-22).  Gives you something to shoot for.

As far as HR, I just take my pulse at the end of intervals in the pool.  Not every time, but a couple of times during a set, particularly for longer aerobic sets, say 400's where I want to keep my HR 120bpm-130bpm. I look at it as just another a measure of conditioning and/or stroke efficiency.  And obviously it isn't practical to try to measure HR while actually swimming.

FWIW, I gave up on HR training on the bike and run several years ago and now go mostly by RPE and pace.  I still track and log my HR after workouts, but found it was too variable to be useful in gauging my efforts, particularly when training in the summer heat here in FL.

Mark

 

 



Edited by RedCorvette 2014-12-09 3:43 PM
2014-12-09 5:35 PM
in reply to: RedCorvette

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Personally, I think that although stroke rate may be helpful, if you're just starting out and have a lot to work on, it's far down on the list of things to look at. There are 50 other things you should be looking at first to fine tune your stroke before looking at stroke rate.

The big thing here is stroke rate is an effect, not a cause. If you want to improve your swimming you should be looking at causes, then maybe, when you make a change, use stroke rate to gauge it. Not the other way around.

The other big problem is that high or low stroke rate can both be bad. If you're inefficient and low, you may just be gliding, so it's not a tell all.

The biggest metric as far as effects go, is how fast you go from one side to the other. Start with that as your yardstick and when you get to the point of nit-picking, then go to stroke rate.
2014-12-09 8:02 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
So if you're too slow on the clock, what do you look to ? What if you're slow and your rate is higher than average? how do you know if you're pace is the same as your buddy's but he's been swimming 10 years...are you good enough? How do you know what your potential is? what if you could be better?

Swimming is the most technical of sports...but it is also a sport of performance and there are performance measures that everyone has access to. Combining technique, video feedback, great coaching and metrics? You'd be hard pressed to go wrong with that. Don't eliminate one because an elite swimmer uses it, rather, learn about it and how and why it could help the average triathlete.

Do you think phelps & bowman started with SPL suddenly when he was on the starting blocks of the olympic trials or is it more likely that it's a tool bowman uses with all his swimmers from an early age?

People should use what they are comfortable with.

If they are not comfortable with knowing how SPL & rate can be measured & used to improve their skill as well as reflect their current skill then they won't be convinced.

But It's an extremely powerful tool to have in your arsenal, not difficult to learn more about, can give you instantaneous feedback about your skill before RPE goes up, can give you many new and varied ways to keep your pool training interesting and engaging.

We are really diverging from the OPs question...the first response was to attack him for using Stroke rate metric as a tool. What we've been, for real.

Aren't we here to help people? Why is being closed minded an asset on internet forums?

Edited by AdventureBear 2014-12-09 8:19 PM
2014-12-09 8:29 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
It's not meant to bash the OP. Just offer advice. If you want to gauge your swim, it's a tool but just blindly trying to reduce stroke count won't be a very effective use of time in my opinion. I'm a pretty decent swimmer and the only thing I use it for is to monitor getting inefficient from fatigue. But even then rarely. I'm not sure how to answer the OPs question as stroke rate is an effect. We don't know the cause, which hinders our ability to offer advice. Which is another reason I'm not a fan of using it.


2014-12-09 8:53 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by 3mar

It's not meant to bash the OP. Just offer advice. If you want to gauge your swim, it's a tool but just blindly trying to reduce stroke count won't be a very effective use of time in my opinion. I'm a pretty decent swimmer and the only thing I use it for is to monitor getting inefficient from fatigue. But even then rarely. I'm not sure how to answer the OPs question as stroke rate is an effect. We don't know the cause, which hinders our ability to offer advice. Which is another reason I'm not a fan of using it.


If using metrics ~ blindly reducing your stroke count, there is an essential misunderstanding.

Since the OP hasn't replied, I guess this thread is dead.
2014-12-09 9:59 PM
in reply to: DavidJG2

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
I agree with many voices that swim stroke rate might not be the most important measure for distance swimming. But I didn't see in the many responses any answer to your question, I have had success increasing my rate when I was racing short distances. Get yourself some short fins and do really short distances like 25 yards spinning your arms. It won't be efficient! The short fins force your arms to turn. Additionally you need to think fast and really emphasis it. I run these as drills usually on tapering time with the high intensity very short distance/time. You should be fully rested between 25s and you want to do split sets like 4x25 with fins and 4x25 without. Each lap you focus only on turn over. It works like a drill overemphasizing 1 aspect. Hopefully when you pull it all back together in your stroke is efficient and quicker because now you're thinking go go go!

Hope that helps-
2014-12-09 10:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

I guess we could try to get Janet Evans and Sun Yang to weigh in on the importance of stroke rate to speed in distance swimming.

If nothing else, we'd all probably end up with headaches.  



Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-09 10:30 PM
2014-12-09 10:32 PM
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Richland, Washington
Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
I'm just going to sit back and enjoy some popcorn on this thread. I love there is one specific "coach" that basically does their best to discount anything I say. I'm totally fine with that. I'm a total newb


Calling Janet Evans and Katie Ledecky!

Edited by Swimaway 2014-12-09 10:44 PM
2014-12-10 3:14 AM
in reply to: Swimaway

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Geez, I didn't know stroke rate was as controversial as flip turns.

To the OP, welcome to BT!  I hope those who completely discounted your question haven't discouraged you from posting further.  There are some very knowledgeable people who have asked questions and offered advice that was relevant to your question.  If you can weed through the chaff, see if you can get the information they asked for and I'm sure they will be able to provide further advice on how you should proceed.



2014-12-10 5:16 AM
in reply to: #5073225


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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Thanks all for the replies, to some of the questions, my pace is 1.45/100 my strokes per 25 m length on average is 21,
2014-12-10 5:37 AM
in reply to: #5073506


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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
So I'll add some more background, I've been swimming for about 3 years now, my pace now is 1:45/100, my strokes per length averages about 21 per 25m length, my strokes per min OW was approx 56/ min, it has recently dropped to about 50 / min
2014-12-10 5:40 AM
in reply to: DavidJG2

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by DavidJG2

So I'll add some more background, I've been swimming for about 3 years now, my pace now is 1:45/100, my strokes per length averages about 21 per 25m length, my strokes per min OW was approx 56/ min, it has recently dropped to about 50 / min


As your stroke rate has decreased, has your speed ?
2014-12-10 6:19 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by DavidJG2

So I'll add some more background, I've been swimming for about 3 years now, my pace now is 1:45/100, my strokes per length averages about 21 per 25m length, my strokes per min OW was approx 56/ min, it has recently dropped to about 50 / min


As your stroke rate has decreased, has your speed ?


to add to this

according to this

http://www.swimsmooth.com/strokerate.html

50/min at 1:45/100m is on the slow side and there are tips to improve it.

Jan Olbrecht, a reputed swim coach that wrote a great book on swim training suggests working on stroke frequency working very closely with a pace clock to make sure that any increase results in an increase in speed.
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