Swim stroke rate (Page 3)
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2014-12-10 6:37 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate |
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2014-12-10 7:08 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by BrotherTri So what is fast for a adult to swim a 100 in? What about old guys, whats fast for them? If you look at the Oly national championship race you will see that the top100-125 or a few more were 1:12/100 for 1500 or faster......so those folks are probably right at 1:00/100 in a pool....give or take a few. Some of them were in their late 40's. That's fast enough for an AG triathlete, huh? Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-10 7:10 PM |
2014-12-10 7:21 PM in reply to: tjfry |
Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by Swimaway Originally posted by axteraa Turnover rate is absolutely controversial. There are also some very knowledgeable people that flat out said it doesn't matter. Because, it flat out doesn't matter. Each person is different. Everyone will have a different stroke count. You cannot possibly tell me that my stroke count doesn't work for me... because at the end of the day I'm still number 1 or 2 out of the water. You can't tell me that turn over rate matters more than the efficiency of each pull. I counted my strokes this morning during my 3 mile swim. 11 was my average SPL... doing 0:55 100's... for 3 miles. Are you going to tell me I needed to increase my stroke count? Unlike those that just "coach" people, I'm still in the water swimming and coaching. Just because someone says "don't worry about this" doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Sorry to cloud this thread with "Chaff," I guess only those that are USAT coach certified and those that "coach coaches" are able to respond to swimming threads. Not the guy that missed Olympic Trials by .02... or has swam 3 21+ mile open water swims. The same guy that has spent over a month training at the Olympic Training Facility in Colorado Springs. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. OP - I'll break this down for you. Do what feels right. If you are hell bent on reducing your stroke rate, do lots of fist swimming. Make a fist, and swim. This teaches you to use more of your arm for a pull as your hand is in a fist. Learn to be more efficient in the water and your stroke count will drop. However. This doesn't work for everyone. Some people just have to have a fast turnover. That's just how they perform better. Sorry if this is just "chaff" to some. Geez, I didn't know stroke rate was as controversial as flip turns. To the OP, welcome to BT! I hope those who completely discounted your question haven't discouraged you from posting further. There are some very knowledgeable people who have asked questions and offered advice that was relevant to your question. If you can weed through the chaff, see if you can get the information they asked for and I'm sure they will be able to provide further advice on how you should proceed. Not "chaff". Refreshing. Thanks for sharing. In all of the time I get to spend around fast swimmers and listen to coaches talk them through the learning stages (and these are level 5 swim coaches of which oine is a former olympic team member and all of them have coached numerous past and present national caliber swimmers) I have NEVER heard stroke rate come up. I hear body position, I hear stroke efficiency, and I hear KICK!!!!! being drilled constantly.......but I've never heard or seen any words or work on stroke rate.......and I notice a lot of different rates within a group of people who all swim really fast. I'm not buying stroke rate as important to fast swimming. Truth. I've had the privilege to train under some of the biggest names in the sport of swimming, and counting strokes was almost non existent. It can be good to spot check from time to time, but other than that, we didn't do it. I can swim 2 completely different rates and achieve the same time in the pool. Conversely, I can swim the same rate and achieve 2 completely different times. The mechanics are the catalyst, not the rate. I've mentioned it before, but counting strokes is akin to golf. You don't go out and focus on shooting a 68. You go out and focus on your driving, short game, putting, etc and 68 is the result. Don't focus on swimming a rate, focus on the mechanics and note how the rate changes.
But... then how do you play swolf?????? |
2014-12-10 10:42 PM in reply to: 0 |
Official BT Coach 18500 Indianapolis, Indiana | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Left Brain AB - you know I respect your opinion, so let me ask you.......why do we not teach adult onset swimmers the same way we teach kids? Why don't we start with floating on your back, learning to press on the water? . . . . . . My guess is true "learn to swim fast" adult club-like programs are not available.....so everybody settles for whatever they can get? The best we can do is masters swimming? TI? I guess I'm asking why we can't teach adults to swim. Great question LB. I know from having worked with many adult onset swimmers (300+) over 30 years, they often don't want to hear about going back and learning fundamentals. If I have someone that can't swim at all, they are generally at least open to the idea of starting with the basics. On the other hand, take someone that can "swim," albeit "beating the water into submission," at 2:30/100, they don't want to hear things like, "fundamentals," "blow bubbles," or "let's learn to kick, " because they "know how to swim." Never mind suggesting floating or pressing on the water. There is incredible resistance to doing fundamentals because, as I have been told on countless occasions, "I'm not a child". Add to that the fact that there aren't that many adult swimming classes. Yeah, you may find one at the Y or the local public pool, but they are few and far between. Not 2-miles from my house they just built a beautiful 50m x 25y 12-foot deep competition pool with a 25y warm-up tank (3-6 feet). The city has advertised it as the greatest aquatic complex anywhere. They have dozens of swimming classes, even this late into fall, yet not one adult swim class. I don't know of too many 30, 40, or 50 somethings that are willing to join a tadpole swim class with the little ones. Often times, those same adult onset swimmers get to a pool, training for their bucket list Ironman or some shorter triathlon, swimming their "fast" 1:45 100's and they know it all, or think they do. As often as not, they don't want to hear how to get more efficient or dare I say faster. They just want to hear they are doing it right and if you won't tell them they are, they'll find someone who will. Just a few weeks ago, there was an individual right here on the forums that was looking for the best workout she could do in the three 45-minutes slots she had available to train for her upcoming Ironman. She was given a wide range of suggestions, ranging from that isn't nearly enough time to train for an Ironman swim to swim a couple 400's. As it turned out, she wasn't interested in reality, she was merely looking for confirmation that her ideas were correct. While there are not a great many adult swim classes out there, they can be found if an individual is seriously looking. I know there are coaches and instructors that are willing to work with adult onset swimmers and if necessary, guide them from entering the water the first time through actually being able to swim. Maybe instead of asking, "Why can't we teach adults to swim," the better question might be, "Why don't adults want to start from the beginning and learn to swim the right way?" Edited by k9car363 2014-12-10 10:52 PM |
2014-12-11 6:33 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by BrotherTri So what is fast for a adult to swim a 100 in? What about old guys, whats fast for them? James, the guy that won your AG at MT 70.3 worlds swam 1:20/100m. He was first out of the water by a large margin and finished 5th. #1 and #2 finishers were about 1:26/100m and about 7th out of the water You would have been top 20. So I'd say whatever you can do for a 100 is not too bad for "an old guy" This is calibrated on a course and conditions that you have raced in. Edited by marcag 2014-12-11 6:47 AM |
2014-12-11 7:36 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Left Brain My guess is true "learn to swim fast" adult club-like programs are not available.....so everybody settles for whatever they can get? The best we can do is masters swimming? TI? I guess I'm asking why we can't teach adults to swim. My guess is that there generally aren't enough adults who really want to put in the time necessary to learn to swim fast. It's not something you can easily do on 2-3, maybe 1-hr, swims per week. For those that want to commit, I'm sure you can find a coach (though might not be in a convenient location or at a convenient time). But probably not a "program" because there aren't a critical mass of such adults in most locales. |
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2014-12-11 7:53 AM in reply to: BrotherTri |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by BrotherTri So what is fast for a adult to swim a 100 in? What about old guys, whats fast for them? That depends on how fast the adult wants to be. In the tri world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 1:05 or better. In the swimming world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 56-57secs or better. This is my opinion of fast and I'm thinking men in the 40-55 yr old range |
2014-12-11 9:22 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by BrotherTri So what is fast for a adult to swim a 100 in? What about old guys, whats fast for them? That depends on how fast the adult wants to be. In the tri world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 1:05 or better. In the swimming world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 56-57secs or better. This is my opinion of fast and I'm thinking men in the 40-55 yr old range Yep. Pool speed is a decent measure of swimming ability. Triathloin swims aren't much of a measure since they are almost never distance correct, conditions change, etc. Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-11 9:26 AM |
2014-12-11 9:34 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by BrotherTri So what is fast for a adult to swim a 100 in? What about old guys, whats fast for them? That depends on how fast the adult wants to be. In the tri world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 1:05 or better. In the swimming world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 56-57secs or better. This is my opinion of fast and I'm thinking men in the 40-55 yr old range Yep. Pool speed is a decent measure of swimming ability. Triathloin swims aren't much of a measure since they are almost never distance correct, conditions change, etc. idk....I can do a 1:05 and I wouldn't consider myself fast. If you can't knock out under a :57 you aren't fast imo. |
2014-12-11 9:47 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2014-12-11 10:06 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate sure fast is relative. but if you are saying "a fast triathlete swims this" it doesn't matter if you are a beginner or a fast triathlete, the number is the same. that's like saying the world record 100m dash is 9.69 seconds, but since I'm slow, to me the world record is relatively 12 seconds.
fast is what fast is.
ETA: just because the site says beginners at the top, doesn't mean there are only beginners here. its the job of the non-beginners to teach the beginners. Edited by dmiller5 2014-12-11 10:07 AM |
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2014-12-11 10:09 AM in reply to: 0 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Beer League Champ 2014-12-11 10:11 AM |
2014-12-11 10:12 AM in reply to: Beer League Champ |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate FOP, or fast, is objective, not subjective. |
2014-12-11 10:14 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by BrotherTri So what is fast for a adult to swim a 100 in? What about old guys, whats fast for them? That depends on how fast the adult wants to be. In the tri world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 1:05 or better. In the swimming world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 56-57secs or better. This is my opinion of fast and I'm thinking men in the 40-55 yr old range Yep. Pool speed is a decent measure of swimming ability. Triathloin swims aren't much of a measure since they are almost never distance correct, conditions change, etc. idk....I can do a 1:05 and I wouldn't consider myself fast. If you can't knock out under a :57 you aren't fast imo. I agree. I find 100m pool swim a bad proxy for a tri swim. 400m, 500y, 800m and 1500m swims are much better measures. |
2014-12-11 10:16 AM in reply to: Beer League Champ |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Beer League Champ Fast is all relative. This is a beginner triathlon site, so fast here is going to be something else in the swim world. 12 yo girls can break 60s for the 100 free, but I suspect very few AG triathletes can do that who aren't lifelong swimmers. In my local M60-64 AG, the top few guys are doing about 1:30/100. But you'll usually be in the top 1/3 of the AG if you can just consistently swim sub 2:00/100 in OW races. Mark
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2014-12-11 10:16 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
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2014-12-11 10:19 AM in reply to: Beer League Champ |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Beer League Champ Originally posted by dmiller5 FOP, or fast, is objective, not subjective. I disagree. The WR argument of yours? Yes. Tangential, but yes. Fast or FOP is VERY relative. Fast in a local race or FOP in a local race is much different than fast at Kona, etc. I'm not even sure people would agree what the definition of FOP even is? Top 5%, Top 1%, Top 33%. I would say top 5%, but others will disagree. The fact that there isn't a unified definition is the essence of subjective. ok....you're saying that people can't agree about what the objective measure is, that is true. However, that doesn't make it subjective, that just makes you wrong if you pick the wrong measure. |
2014-12-11 10:31 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2014-12-11 11:03 AM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by dmiller5 I agree. I find 100m pool swim a bad proxy for a tri swim. 400m, 500y, 800m and 1500m swims are much better measures. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by BrotherTri So what is fast for a adult to swim a 100 in? What about old guys, whats fast for them? That depends on how fast the adult wants to be. In the tri world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 1:05 or better. In the swimming world a fast swimmer could do 100yds in 56-57secs or better. This is my opinion of fast and I'm thinking men in the 40-55 yr old range Yep. Pool speed is a decent measure of swimming ability. Triathloin swims aren't much of a measure since they are almost never distance correct, conditions change, etc. idk....I can do a 1:05 and I wouldn't consider myself fast. If you can't knock out under a :57 you aren't fast imo. USAT uses a 200/800 swim test for a benchmark for DL athletes. Both swam all out with a 1 minute rest between. Then sometime in the next week you swim a 100 all out. The benchmarks are different for different levels....but it's a good measure of swim speed and predicted speed at race distances up to 1500M. |
2014-12-11 11:04 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Left Brain AB - you know I respect your opinion, so let me ask you.......why do we not teach adult onset swimmers the same way we teach kids? Why don't we start with floating on your back, learning to press on the water? And then the same when on your front? Why do we completely neglect the development of a good kick? Why do we not teach the other strokes in order to learn feel for the water? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TIME...... we dont have time to teach them that with 2X 1h/week swim practice. But i can sure teach them to turn there arms at a high stroke race when strap in a wetsuit. Is this proper swimming? No...but i m not trying to make a swimmer out of them...i m trying to maximize time/return on investement. When you get athlete that can invest a little more time, you can work on some other details and bridge the gap between pure swimmers and adult on set during a open water race with wetsuit. A good exemple is my ex girlfriend Erika Csomor. She won duathlon ITU worlds a few times as professional and won 5 or 6 times Zofingen (most prestigious duathlon in the world) She wanted to move to triathlon but cant swim. Brett Sutton told me right away that she would simply need to be able to turn her arms fast enough...pick race with wetsuit and she would make lots of money at that sport. A few years later....she won a few ironman.... including a 8h4X.... and a 4th place in kona. She was never teach the conventional way...there was no time for it. the same apply to many age group athlete. That is why i have lots of them swimming with pull Buoy for a big % of there weekly volume. We go for the best return on investement knowing really well that is a compromise...but it s the best option available. |
2014-12-11 11:12 AM in reply to: jonnyo |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by jonnyo Left Brain AB - you know I respect your opinion, so let me ask you.......why do we not teach adult onset swimmers the same way we teach kids? Why don't we start with floating on your back, learning to press on the water? And then the same when on your front? Why do we completely neglect the development of a good kick? Why do we not teach the other strokes in order to learn feel for the water? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TIME...... we dont have time to teach them that with 2X 1h/week swim practice. But i can sure teach them to turn there arms at a high stroke race when strap in a wetsuit. Is this proper swimming? No...but i m not trying to make a swimmer out of them...i m trying to maximize time/return on investement. When you get athlete that can invest a little more time, you can work on some other details and bridge the gap between pure swimmers and adult on set during a open water race with wetsuit. A good exemple is my ex girlfriend Erika Csomor. She won duathlon ITU worlds a few times as professional and won 5 or 6 times Zofingen (most prestigious duathlon in the world) She wanted to move to triathlon but cant swim. Brett Sutton told me right away that she would simply need to be able to turn her arms fast enough...pick race with wetsuit and she would make lots of money at that sport. A few years later....she won a few ironman.... including a 8h4X.... and a 4th place in kona. She was never teach the conventional way...there was no time for it. the same apply to many age group athlete. That is why i have lots of them swimming with pull Buoy for a big % of there weekly volume. We go for the best return on investement knowing really well that is a compromise...but it s the best option available. Sutton's strategy is basically to take someone with a big engine. Pound them with tons and tons of yardage with a pull buoy to make them more efficient with their arms, and then set them loose in a race where the swim is only ~10% of the total time. He doesn't make good swimmers, he makes athletes that won't lose the race in the water. I would suspect that this strategy wouldn't work as well in a more even race like an Olympic. At the highest level you need your swim to be a weapon, and you need to be able to get out with the top athletes while minimizing your energy expenditure. you can't afford to lose minutes there. |
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2014-12-11 11:14 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Left Brain USAT uses a 200/800 swim test for a benchmark for DL athletes. Both swam all out with a 1 minute rest between. Then sometime in the next week you swim a 100 all out. The benchmarks are different for different levels....but it's a good measure of swim speed and predicted speed at race distances up to 1500M. that makes sense. With the 200/800 they can assess a person's ability to hold a pace. With the 100 they can measure their raw speed. My 200 and 800 times are much better predictors of my 1500 and 1900m times. My 100 time puts me at a level I am not. Swimsmooth with their CSS do something similar, but they use a 200 and 400 and calculate a critical pace. I usually swim 50, 100 and the 400 at swim meets when the 800 and 1500 are not available. |
2014-12-11 11:17 AM in reply to: jonnyo |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by jonnyo Left Brain AB - you know I respect your opinion, so let me ask you.......why do we not teach adult onset swimmers the same way we teach kids? Why don't we start with floating on your back, learning to press on the water? And then the same when on your front? Why do we completely neglect the development of a good kick? Why do we not teach the other strokes in order to learn feel for the water? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TIME...... we dont have time to teach them that with 2X 1h/week swim practice. But i can sure teach them to turn there arms at a high stroke race when strap in a wetsuit. Is this proper swimming? No...but i m not trying to make a swimmer out of them...i m trying to maximize time/return on investement. When you get athlete that can invest a little more time, you can work on some other details and bridge the gap between pure swimmers and adult on set during a open water race with wetsuit. A good exemple is my ex girlfriend Erika Csomor. She won duathlon ITU worlds a few times as professional and won 5 or 6 times Zofingen (most prestigious duathlon in the world) She wanted to move to triathlon but cant swim. Brett Sutton told me right away that she would simply need to be able to turn her arms fast enough...pick race with wetsuit and she would make lots of money at that sport. A few years later....she won a few ironman.... including a 8h4X.... and a 4th place in kona. She was never teach the conventional way...there was no time for it. the same apply to many age group athlete. That is why i have lots of them swimming with pull Buoy for a big % of there weekly volume. We go for the best return on investement knowing really well that is a compromise...but it s the best option available. Yeah....without a doubt wetsuits change the metrics for "faster" swimming. I can see your point about the pull bouy and return on investment. How would she have done in a race distance like Oly or Sprint where the swim is so much more important? It's funny....I always have to remind myself that many folks discuss triathlon with a heavy IM distance slant. I rarely ever think of triathlon with regard to IM. Not that either is the worng way to look at the sport.......but the sport sure looks different between the two....and then add DL....another game again. |
2014-12-11 11:34 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate of course, you can imagine that olympic distance or sprint for a girl of her level would had been a disastor. She was a monster biker and runner but that would not be enough for her to offset the weakness on the swim. The level is just too high with professional. But even in short course racing, if we forget junior and elite/pros.... 95% of the field is age group. So we come back to the same principale. What should i focus on for my adult onset that will need to swim 750m or 1500m with a wetsuit. From my experience, i would say there is perhaps 1 adult for each 1000 that start swimming that is willing to put the amount of time that kids do.... For that 1/1000....you can teach him to be a swimmer the proper ''pool way'' |
2014-12-11 11:34 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by jonnyo Left Brain AB - you know I respect your opinion, so let me ask you.......why do we not teach adult onset swimmers the same way we teach kids? Why don't we start with floating on your back, learning to press on the water? And then the same when on your front? Why do we completely neglect the development of a good kick? Why do we not teach the other strokes in order to learn feel for the water? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TIME...... we dont have time to teach them that with 2X 1h/week swim practice. But i can sure teach them to turn there arms at a high stroke race when strap in a wetsuit. Is this proper swimming? No...but i m not trying to make a swimmer out of them...i m trying to maximize time/return on investement. When you get athlete that can invest a little more time, you can work on some other details and bridge the gap between pure swimmers and adult on set during a open water race with wetsuit. A good exemple is my ex girlfriend Erika Csomor. She won duathlon ITU worlds a few times as professional and won 5 or 6 times Zofingen (most prestigious duathlon in the world) She wanted to move to triathlon but cant swim. Brett Sutton told me right away that she would simply need to be able to turn her arms fast enough...pick race with wetsuit and she would make lots of money at that sport. A few years later....she won a few ironman.... including a 8h4X.... and a 4th place in kona. She was never teach the conventional way...there was no time for it. the same apply to many age group athlete. That is why i have lots of them swimming with pull Buoy for a big % of there weekly volume. We go for the best return on investement knowing really well that is a compromise...but it s the best option available. Sutton's strategy is basically to take someone with a big engine. Pound them with tons and tons of yardage with a pull buoy to make them more efficient with their arms, and then set them loose in a race where the swim is only ~10% of the total time. He doesn't make good swimmers, he makes athletes that won't lose the race in the water. I would suspect that this strategy wouldn't work as well in a more even race like an Olympic. At the highest level you need your swim to be a weapon, and you need to be able to get out with the top athletes while minimizing your energy expenditure. you can't afford to lose minutes there. He's made good swimmers in the past, too. Including ITU champions. He may not train them the same way as an IM swimmer, because the goal is not the same. |
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