work-out to improve hill climbing?
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2015-04-11 4:03 PM |
39 | Subject: work-out to improve hill climbing? Hi, I was wondering what type of workouts I could do to practice hill climbing. there is nothing that I can do on my trainer that feels anything like it. I tried out the stair master and if you put it high enough, it kinda of feels like out of the saddle climbing. I would like to get your thoughts as to weather or not i'm wasting my time doing 20-30 min on the stair master or if you think it will help? I'm also open to any other tips you may have Cheers Darcy Hinds |
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2015-04-11 4:04 PM in reply to: madprops |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? not to be snarky, but take your bike outside, and ride hills. thats how you get better at hills |
2015-04-11 4:12 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
928 | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? I'm assuming you're asking because you can't get outside? If so, then try switching to a spin bike at the gym. Setting the resistance on the spin bike and getting out of the saddle for some climbing can help a lot (although in theory you should be able to do this on your trainer as well). |
2015-04-11 4:24 PM in reply to: jennifer_runs |
39 | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by jennifer_runs I'm assuming you're asking because you can't get outside? If so, then try switching to a spin bike at the gym. Setting the resistance on the spin bike and getting out of the saddle for some climbing can help a lot (although in theory you should be able to do this on your trainer as well). You are right. I can only ride 4 days out of every two weeks. I also have to use that time to swim. I will try setting the resistance higher on the spin bike (I don't have my trainer when I'm at work so I guess I wanted to use the term "spin bike"). I just feel that its way different then climbing on my bike. standing on a hard gear in flats vs standing on a light gear going up a hill. What do you think of doing one minute out of the saddle in a hard gear then one minute in an easy gear times 5 ? |
2015-04-11 4:26 PM in reply to: madprops |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Noticed you were trying to replicate out of the saddle riding. Are you having to stand for every single hill? Best thing for me is just becoming a stronger rider, and a lot of that work has come on the trainer. Really figure out what working hard is and learn various types of intervals to improve your cycling power (also not intending to sound snarky here). The stronger you get the more the hills just take care of themselves. |
2015-04-11 4:44 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
39 | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by brigby1 Noticed you were trying to replicate out of the saddle riding. Are you having to stand for every single hill? Best thing for me is just becoming a stronger rider, and a lot of that work has come on the trainer. Really figure out what working hard is and learn various types of intervals to improve your cycling power (also not intending to sound snarky here). The stronger you get the more the hills just take care of themselves. Well as it stands now I have a total of 30 KM on my bike(10 km training and 20 km in my first race), and I have never had a bike with skinny tires on it before this one. out of the 3 climbs in my race i was able to stay in the saddle for 2 of them but the really big one where everyone was out of the saddle i lost a lot of time. I would say out of the saddle is the weakest part of my bike. I ride on a spin bike just about everyday after work I just don't really know a lot of what to do a side from race pace for 20km over and over again. yeaterday I did 3 min faster then race pace and then 3 min light pace (but kept my cadence around 94), and i did that 4 times. I don't think you are being snarky at all. I am looking for any help I can get. I have set a very high goal for myself, and it will be easier to get there with help from people who know more then me |
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2015-04-11 6:11 PM in reply to: madprops |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Does the bike have any kind of power feedback? If so, you can do Jorge's off-season cycling program (free on this site) or another similar program. It gives lots of structured workouts to increase your power on the bike, which will help your ability to climb hills. There is also an option using heart rate. I read your other post about your training situation (am always interested in people with unusual ones) so I understand your chance to ride outside is limited and you can't have access to your own bike and trainer when on duty. I also have limited time to cycle outdoors (max once a week) and for the first few years I did tri had no trainer. I used a gym stationary with a watt meter and did power-based workouts. That was good enough to get me from BOP to MOP (overall) as a cyclist, and from barely MOP to maybe top 25% in the women's field in SE Asia tris . We basically have no hills in Saigon, but I'm a good climber. That is partly a function of bike fitness but also of power to weight ratio. It also requires a bit of technical skill to find the right combo of gearing, sitting, and standing that work for your body in rides/races of different distances. So, with a spin bike you can work on the fitness aspect (by doing some intervals at higher effort/resistance rather than always riding a steady pace). Plus get to a god racing weight if not there already. The technical stuff would have to wait until you can actually ride your bike on a hill. |
2015-04-11 7:40 PM in reply to: #5107398 |
Expert 1215 Austin, TX | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? In spin classes, I my opinion, most people do not use enough resisrance. When using a spin bike, increase resistance a bit more than you are doing now. When I am in spin class, I do some of the intervals seated. It will make you stronger at climbing, just don't cheat yourself on resistance. |
2015-04-12 1:43 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by brigby1 Noticed you were trying to replicate out of the saddle riding. Are you having to stand for every single hill? Best thing for me is just becoming a stronger rider, and a lot of that work has come on the trainer. Really figure out what working hard is and learn various types of intervals to improve your cycling power (also not intending to sound snarky here). The stronger you get the more the hills just take care of themselves. x2. For triathlon riding, it's simply about improving bike fitness, reducing as much weight (off you and/or your bike), pacing, and proper gearing. There really is nothing special about hills you need to train for unless you're tackling something really steep...which most triathlon courses avoid. Hills are great for training, but really not that different from simply using your trainer assuming you force yourself to ride at higher intensity like a hill would. |
2015-04-12 8:25 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
39 | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by Hot Runner Does the bike have any kind of power feedback? If so, you can do Jorge's off-season cycling program (free on this site) or another similar program. It gives lots of structured workouts to increase your power on the bike, which will help your ability to climb hills. There is also an option using heart rate. I read your other post about your training situation (am always interested in people with unusual ones) so I understand your chance to ride outside is limited and you can't have access to your own bike and trainer when on duty. I also have limited time to cycle outdoors (max once a week) and for the first few years I did tri had no trainer. I used a gym stationary with a watt meter and did power-based workouts. That was good enough to get me from BOP to MOP (overall) as a cyclist, and from barely MOP to maybe top 25% in the women's field in SE Asia tris . We basically have no hills in Saigon, but I'm a good climber. That is partly a function of bike fitness but also of power to weight ratio. It also requires a bit of technical skill to find the right combo of gearing, sitting, and standing that work for your body in rides/races of different distances. So, with a spin bike you can work on the fitness aspect (by doing some intervals at higher effort/resistance rather than always riding a steady pace). Plus get to a god racing weight if not there already. The technical stuff would have to wait until you can actually ride your bike on a hill. Yes it does show watts. I hate to be that guy but I can't find Jorge's off-season cycling program. My internet here at work is really slow and I just couldn't find it last night when I looked. |
2015-04-12 8:34 AM in reply to: madprops |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? On this site--Click on Training Plans, select "Cycle"; "Winter Cycling With Power". It works on a spin bike with a watt meter; you just need to do the power tests on that cycle. It helps to use the same bike each time, as they can be calibrated a bit differently. Also, use resistance levels that give you a cadence in line with what you'd have on the road (probably 70-95 range, depending on resistance). Remember that speed, power, distance on a spin bike are kind of arbitrary and may not compare to what you do outside, but they still should be consistent when using that bike, so you can definitely do power-based workout.s For what it's worth, back when I used the gym stationary with the watt meter, there was about a 30 watt difference (164 vs. 195) between 20-minute power tests with the stationary and my own road bike on a computrainer (at our now-defunct tri club in Oregon) within the same few month period. That's not very close, but no matter, I just calculated % of max for each to do workouts. |
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2015-04-12 8:53 AM in reply to: Hugh in TX |
39 | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by Hugh in TX In spin classes, I my opinion, most people do not use enough resisrance. When using a spin bike, increase resistance a bit more than you are doing now. When I am in spin class, I do some of the intervals seated. It will make you stronger at climbing, just don't cheat yourself on resistance. When I first read your comment my first thought was...... pfft I go hard!!!!!!! But I thought about it for a bit, and its been more then a month since I have blown up when riding the spin bike. I think I have more power then when I started 2 months ago but I haven't changed what I thought going hard was. So last night I pushed past the resistance I have done in the past and used intervals, My work out went as follows; 20 minute medium pace on the rowing machine 4 min light resistance on the spin bike. 3 min going hard and 3 min of recovery (high cadence) times 4, stayed in the saddle. 2 min really hard 2 min recovery (high cadence) times 4, out of the saddle when going hard. 30 sec all out 3 sec recovery (high cadence) times 4, stayed in the saddle. 3 minute cool down at a high cadence (waiting for the stair master to free up) 20 min medium on the stair master Then I stretched and rolled out my legs and back. I felt it was a much harder workout then I have been used to. When I was doing the 3 min on and off I felt like I might not be able to keep it together on the last one, I really had to fight to keep up the pace in the last minute. I put the resistance up higher for the next one but it didn't feel as hard. but I couldn't keep my cadence at 94 when I was standing. Then I got to the 30 sec all outs. they were hard but not long enough to have a major problem. I was pushing more power then I have ever done before. Is 30 sec to short of a time to get any real gain? should I do more then four sets of the 30 seconds all outs or should I make then into a minute? thanks for stating the obvious in your post. I will try and remember to keep pushing harder in training and not just keep it on the same resistance as I get stronger |
2015-04-12 9:00 AM in reply to: Jason N |
39 | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by brigby1 Noticed you were trying to replicate out of the saddle riding. Are you having to stand for every single hill? Best thing for me is just becoming a stronger rider, and a lot of that work has come on the trainer. Really figure out what working hard is and learn various types of intervals to improve your cycling power (also not intending to sound snarky here). The stronger you get the more the hills just take care of themselves. x2. Â For triathlon riding, it's simply about improving bike fitness, reducing as much weight (off you and/or your bike), pacing, and proper gearing. Â There really is nothing special about hills you need to train for unless you're tackling something really steep...which most triathlon courses avoid. Â Hills are great for training, but really not that different from simply using your trainer assuming you force yourself to ride at higher intensity like a hill would. How much pounds should I drop? I'm 6'2" and two months ago I was 197 lbs. I have dropped down to 175 lbs. I was thinking i 170 could be my race weight. Does anyone know at what point I should stop cutting weight? Like at what point will my swim suffer so much that its not worth it to get any lighter for the bike and run? |
2015-04-12 9:03 AM in reply to: madprops |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Ride hills, repeat. |
2015-04-12 10:26 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by madprops Originally posted by Hugh in TX In spin classes, I my opinion, most people do not use enough resisrance. When using a spin bike, increase resistance a bit more than you are doing now. When I am in spin class, I do some of the intervals seated. It will make you stronger at climbing, just don't cheat yourself on resistance. When I first read your comment my first thought was...... pfft I go hard!!!!!!! But I thought about it for a bit, and its been more then a month since I have blown up when riding the spin bike. I think I have more power then when I started 2 months ago but I haven't changed what I thought going hard was. So last night I pushed past the resistance I have done in the past and used intervals, My work out went as follows; 20 minute medium pace on the rowing machine 4 min light resistance on the spin bike. 3 min going hard and 3 min of recovery (high cadence) times 4, stayed in the saddle. 2 min really hard 2 min recovery (high cadence) times 4, out of the saddle when going hard. 30 sec all out 3 sec recovery (high cadence) times 4, stayed in the saddle. 3 minute cool down at a high cadence (waiting for the stair master to free up) 20 min medium on the stair master Then I stretched and rolled out my legs and back. I felt it was a much harder workout then I have been used to. When I was doing the 3 min on and off I felt like I might not be able to keep it together on the last one, I really had to fight to keep up the pace in the last minute. I put the resistance up higher for the next one but it didn't feel as hard. but I couldn't keep my cadence at 94 when I was standing. Then I got to the 30 sec all outs. they were hard but not long enough to have a major problem. I was pushing more power then I have ever done before. Is 30 sec to short of a time to get any real gain? should I do more then four sets of the 30 seconds all outs or should I make then into a minute? thanks for stating the obvious in your post. I will try and remember to keep pushing harder in training and not just keep it on the same resistance as I get stronger Can you get in intervals of 8-20 minutes in length? Try to do enough to total 30-40 minutes of going hard, and do about 20-25% of the work part for recovery. Most use nice number like 8, 10, 12, 15 and 20 for the hard parts. Because of the increased duration (both interval length and workout total) you won't be able to work at quite the same intensity as the shorter ones you're now doing, but that's ok. Stay strong throughout and you can still be very spent at the end. The hurt will come a little bit later than you're used to. So these would be 4-5 x 8' w/2' recoveries, or 2 x 20' w/4' recovery. I tend to do well with performing several of these workouts for every one of the workouts you're doing now, the 3-4 minutes of work with about equal rest. Did you have anything to monitor effort? Such as power or heart rate? Do you have trainer speed? What you're trying to do with this is figure out a fairly consistent output throughout each interval and from interval to interval. These can help guide you to that as perceived effort can be misleading. Edited by brigby1 2015-04-12 10:26 AM |
2015-04-13 9:33 AM in reply to: madprops |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? In addition to brigby's advice on the intervals, unless you are training for rowing or climbing stairs, ditch the 20min on the rowing machine and stairmaster and add that time to the biking. As noted, there is no big secret training for the hills. Ride more. And ride harder, at times. You'll eventually ride faster on hills or flats. |
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2015-04-13 9:55 AM in reply to: madprops |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? I did IM Tahoe in 2013 and did about 95% of my bike training in the basement on the trainer. I did a lot of 20-30 minute intervals at 85-90% of my FTP. To get up the two major climbs in the race requred 20-30 minutes of about 80-85% FTP. Time on the trainer at hard resistance was more than enough to prepare me to climb hills. Ideally I would train outside on hills but for now, the trainer is where I get my bike 'riding' in. |
2015-04-13 2:46 PM in reply to: madprops |
Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by madprops How much pounds should I drop? I'm 6'2" and two months ago I was 197 lbs. I have dropped down to 175 lbs. I was thinking i 170 could be my race weight. Does anyone know at what point I should stop cutting weight? Like at what point will my swim suffer so much that its not worth it to get any lighter for the bike and run? Only you know the answer to that question. I'm just pointing out that climbing is very much just a power to weight equation. There is no real "skill" involved in climbing with regards to triathlon. Do the things that will help increase your power (intervals, volume, etc.), do the things that will help you get to or maintain your ideal weight...and you will climb better. |
2015-04-13 4:40 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by madprops How much pounds should I drop? I'm 6'2" and two months ago I was 197 lbs. I have dropped down to 175 lbs. I was thinking i 170 could be my race weight. Does anyone know at what point I should stop cutting weight? Like at what point will my swim suffer so much that its not worth it to get any lighter for the bike and run? Only you know the answer to that question. I'm just pointing out that climbing is very much just a power to weight equation. There is no real "skill" involved in climbing with regards to triathlon. Do the things that will help increase your power (intervals, volume, etc.), do the things that will help you get to or maintain your ideal weight...and you will climb better. I think there is some skill when it comes to hill climbing - and hills is a subjective term based on where you live. For me, a long steady gradient is great and I do well, but for shorter steeper hills that require a punchier effort I either get blown out near the bottom, or I blow up trying to keep up and then need to recover. Even after 6+ years I still find myself having to manage my power up hills and then chasing to make up the time I lost. |
2015-04-13 5:28 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by madprops How much pounds should I drop? I'm 6'2" and two months ago I was 197 lbs. I have dropped down to 175 lbs. I was thinking i 170 could be my race weight. Does anyone know at what point I should stop cutting weight? Like at what point will my swim suffer so much that its not worth it to get any lighter for the bike and run? Only you know the answer to that question. I'm just pointing out that climbing is very much just a power to weight equation. There is no real "skill" involved in climbing with regards to triathlon. Do the things that will help increase your power (intervals, volume, etc.), do the things that will help you get to or maintain your ideal weight...and you will climb better. I think there is some skill when it comes to hill climbing - and hills is a subjective term based on where you live. For me, a long steady gradient is great and I do well, but for shorter steeper hills that require a punchier effort I either get blown out near the bottom, or I blow up trying to keep up and then need to recover. Even after 6+ years I still find myself having to manage my power up hills and then chasing to make up the time I lost. Which would go back to my earlier comment about proper gearing and proper pacing. And again, this is in terms of triathlon where you are just riding your own race...not trying to keep up with a pack who may be *attacking* the hills. Also in terms of triathlon in the sense that most courses don't include steep sections that require you to do anything different skill wise assuming you have enough gearing. |
2015-04-13 7:00 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? To clarify, by "skill" I meant gearing and pacing. That's a bit different depending on hill size, steepness, nature of rider and bike, length of event, riding style, etc. Just to mention it would be something that can be difficult to master when riding a trainer--I know I've had my struggles here (having no hills). Much easier if one has a power meter or access to something like Computrainer that gives power feedback--I found that training to keep power steady indoors helped me to keep an even effort up the hills outside, even without a PM then. |
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2015-04-13 7:11 PM in reply to: madprops |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Hills = w/kg ratio. Improve one, the other will follow. |
2015-04-13 7:24 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by madprops How much pounds should I drop? I'm 6'2" and two months ago I was 197 lbs. I have dropped down to 175 lbs. I was thinking i 170 could be my race weight. Does anyone know at what point I should stop cutting weight? Like at what point will my swim suffer so much that its not worth it to get any lighter for the bike and run? Only you know the answer to that question. I'm just pointing out that climbing is very much just a power to weight equation. There is no real "skill" involved in climbing with regards to triathlon. Do the things that will help increase your power (intervals, volume, etc.), do the things that will help you get to or maintain your ideal weight...and you will climb better. I think there is some skill when it comes to hill climbing - and hills is a subjective term based on where you live. For me, a long steady gradient is great and I do well, but for shorter steeper hills that require a punchier effort I either get blown out near the bottom, or I blow up trying to keep up and then need to recover. Even after 6+ years I still find myself having to manage my power up hills and then chasing to make up the time I lost. Which would go back to my earlier comment about proper gearing and proper pacing. And again, this is in terms of triathlon where you are just riding your own race...not trying to keep up with a pack who may be *attacking* the hills. Also in terms of triathlon in the sense that most courses don't include steep sections that require you to do anything different skill wise assuming you have enough gearing. Right, "no real skill" doesn't literally mean zero, just that's it's fairly low. Also, if you goof it up it can make you pay, but that still doesn't mean it takes a lot of skill to manage. Anticipate how the upcoming terrain will affect the gear selection. |
2015-04-13 9:14 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by madprops How much pounds should I drop? I'm 6'2" and two months ago I was 197 lbs. I have dropped down to 175 lbs. I was thinking i 170 could be my race weight. Does anyone know at what point I should stop cutting weight? Like at what point will my swim suffer so much that its not worth it to get any lighter for the bike and run? Only you know the answer to that question. I'm just pointing out that climbing is very much just a power to weight equation. There is no real "skill" involved in climbing with regards to triathlon. Do the things that will help increase your power (intervals, volume, etc.), do the things that will help you get to or maintain your ideal weight...and you will climb better. I think there is some skill when it comes to hill climbing - and hills is a subjective term based on where you live. For me, a long steady gradient is great and I do well, but for shorter steeper hills that require a punchier effort I either get blown out near the bottom, or I blow up trying to keep up and then need to recover. Even after 6+ years I still find myself having to manage my power up hills and then chasing to make up the time I lost. Which would go back to my earlier comment about proper gearing and proper pacing. And again, this is in terms of triathlon where you are just riding your own race...not trying to keep up with a pack who may be *attacking* the hills. Also in terms of triathlon in the sense that most courses don't include steep sections that require you to do anything different skill wise assuming you have enough gearing. Right, "no real skill" doesn't literally mean zero, just that's it's fairly low. Also, if you goof it up it can make you pay, but that still doesn't mean it takes a lot of skill to manage. Anticipate how the upcoming terrain will affect the gear selection. I think we're talking different things here a little - gear selection, how to approach the hill, etc., are all things I feel I have a pretty good handle on. W/kg (To leego's comment) are ok, but I feel one has to practice hard, short hill efforts so you get used to pushing those above threshold efforts, and then return to just below threshold in a race, rather than having to recover before you resume the effort again. At the same time, how you approach a longer more consistent climb is again going to be different. To Jason's comment, in a shorter race I don't feel like you're riding your own race all the time, you're aware of those who you have passed or have passed you and you can choose to alter your effort to keep pace or let them go. I just find that people put out a lot more effort on those shorter hills and ride off - perhaps I have fewer matches, or I just don't burn as many on the hills |
2015-04-13 9:40 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: work-out to improve hill climbing? Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by madprops How much pounds should I drop? I'm 6'2" and two months ago I was 197 lbs. I have dropped down to 175 lbs. I was thinking i 170 could be my race weight. Does anyone know at what point I should stop cutting weight? Like at what point will my swim suffer so much that its not worth it to get any lighter for the bike and run? Only you know the answer to that question. I'm just pointing out that climbing is very much just a power to weight equation. There is no real "skill" involved in climbing with regards to triathlon. Do the things that will help increase your power (intervals, volume, etc.), do the things that will help you get to or maintain your ideal weight...and you will climb better. I think there is some skill when it comes to hill climbing - and hills is a subjective term based on where you live. For me, a long steady gradient is great and I do well, but for shorter steeper hills that require a punchier effort I either get blown out near the bottom, or I blow up trying to keep up and then need to recover. Even after 6+ years I still find myself having to manage my power up hills and then chasing to make up the time I lost. Which would go back to my earlier comment about proper gearing and proper pacing. And again, this is in terms of triathlon where you are just riding your own race...not trying to keep up with a pack who may be *attacking* the hills. Also in terms of triathlon in the sense that most courses don't include steep sections that require you to do anything different skill wise assuming you have enough gearing. Right, "no real skill" doesn't literally mean zero, just that's it's fairly low. Also, if you goof it up it can make you pay, but that still doesn't mean it takes a lot of skill to manage. Anticipate how the upcoming terrain will affect the gear selection. I think we're talking different things here a little - gear selection, how to approach the hill, etc., are all things I feel I have a pretty good handle on. W/kg (To leego's comment) are ok, but I feel one has to practice hard, short hill efforts so you get used to pushing those above threshold efforts, and then return to just below threshold in a race, rather than having to recover before you resume the effort again. At the same time, how you approach a longer more consistent climb is again going to be different. To Jason's comment, in a shorter race I don't feel like you're riding your own race all the time, you're aware of those who you have passed or have passed you and you can choose to alter your effort to keep pace or let them go. I just find that people put out a lot more effort on those shorter hills and ride off - perhaps I have fewer matches, or I just don't burn as many on the hills Perhaps you could expand on the "hard, short" parts as what I'm reading doesn't really sound like how I've raced. Power may not stay perfectly flat, but I'm not going way past threshold either. Even with short course racing. How hard do you think these guys are going? |
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