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Bought Speed
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 2015-05-19 4:27 PM |
 439   nashville, Tennessee |  Subject: Bought SpeedGive me a number. If someone asked you how much faster you thought they would be if they had a higher end bike and you had to give them a number? I know there are a lot of factors(conditions, fit, etc) and I know its all about the engine yada yada yada. So I'm not looking for any of that. What would be the max amount of speed you would say would be gained by a simple upgrade in bike. This question has been raised with me by a friend many times and I always tell him that its very little difference. To be clear, I'm talking about upgrading from say lower end (felt, specialized, trek, etc) to upper end. Not from a 30 yr old bike to a brand new bike. Throw some numbers out there. My number is 0.5 mph at most. |
| 2015-05-19 4:29 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Bought Speed And if it makes a difference lets say you're around 20-21 mph on avg for sprint races |
| 2015-05-19 5:01 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by mchadcota2 Give me a number. If someone asked you how much faster you thought they would be if they had a higher end bike and you had to give them a number? I know there are a lot of factors(conditions, fit, etc) and I know its all about the engine yada yada yada. So I'm not looking for any of that. What would be the max amount of speed you would say would be gained by a simple upgrade in bike. This question has been raised with me by a friend many times and I always tell him that its very little difference. To be clear, I'm talking about upgrading from say lower end (felt, specialized, trek, etc) to upper end. Not from a 30 yr old bike to a brand new bike. Throw some numbers out there. My number is 0.5 mph at most. From entry level felt on day one, to top end IA on day 2, same fit? 0.0, maybe 0.5 for the first hour for the excitement factor, then fitness kicks back in Over time, if there is greater motivation to ride the $$$ bike, then perhaps some gains, but that's not cuz of the bike itself Edited by ChrisM 2015-05-19 5:01 PM |
| 2015-05-19 5:21 PM in reply to: 0 |
Official BT Coach 18500    Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by ChrisM From entry level felt on day one, to top end IA on day 2, same fit? 0.0, maybe 0.5 for the first hour for the excitement factor, then fitness kicks back in Over time, if there is greater motivation to ride the $$$ bike, then perhaps some gains, but that's not cuz of the bike itself So why the hell did I buy the SC 9.9? Oh yeah, because it was more like 2.5 mph for me. Edited because I can't spell simple words like "it." Edited by k9car363 2015-05-19 5:25 PM |
| 2015-05-19 5:29 PM in reply to: 0 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Bought Speed If you are willing to believe Cervelo in their white paper on the P5, they claim a 57 to 110 gram reduction in drag compared to other superbikes and then another 100 grams compared to a typical tri bike. The 57 to 110 grams is 24 to 44 seconds over 40k, so another 100 would be another 40 seconds maybe? Someone else will have to convert all that metric into MPH. Edited by axteraa 2015-05-19 5:29 PM |
| 2015-05-19 5:33 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Bought Speed |
| 2015-05-19 5:39 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Bought Speed I'm about 2-3 kph faster on my tri bike (Cervelo P2) than my road bikes (Trek 1.2 and 1.5). None of those bikes are particularly top end for their genre, but the Cervelo's clearly a better bike. I think a lot of that is I simply have a better fit that wasn't possible on the road bike, particularly the 1.2 (i's too short, lengthwise) so even easy riding feels more comfortable. I also tend to race on windy oceanside courses so being more aero matters a lot. |
| 2015-05-19 5:42 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| Subject: RE: Bought Speed From a road bike to a well fit tri bike, about 1 maybe 1.5 MPH From a Felt S23 to a Felt DA, both fit and both in good shape, probably the tires you use would make a bigger difference. However from a "this is about right" fitting to a good fitting you have a good chance of picking up another 1 MPH or so and/or work less for the same speed. |
| 2015-05-19 5:46 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
New user 147 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Some of Cervolo's marketing literature claims the P5 to be 6-11 W faster than "the other so called superbikes", making a few reasonable assumptions for the 20-21mph range you mention, that should a yield 0.2 - 0.4 mph gain. Other white papers show a difference in drag of 300-400 grams between various TT bikes, which would probably yield a little more than 1 mph gain. My opinion is, if your friend currently rides a modern TT bike in the 20-21 mph range and does nothing more than change bikes, he'll still end up in the 20-21mph range. Although, as others have noted, the placebo effect is very strong, no one likes to get passed on their $12k superbike by someone on a 10 year old roadbike with clip-ons, so he'll ride harder. |
| 2015-05-19 5:53 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: RE: Bought Speed |
| 2015-05-19 5:55 PM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by Hot Runner I'm about 2-3 kph faster on my tri bike (Cervelo P2) than my road bikes (Trek 1.2 and 1.5). None of those bikes are particularly top end for their genre, but the Cervelo's clearly a better bike. I think a lot of that is I simply have a better fit that wasn't possible on the road bike, particularly the 1.2 (i's too short, lengthwise) so even easy riding feels more comfortable. I also tend to race on windy oceanside courses so being more aero matters a lot. I read the question as going from entry level tri bike to super tri bike. Perhaps there is a small gain due to weight savings, I'll give you that. But assuming fit and rider fitness are the same, no more than a small gain. IMO |
| 2015-05-19 6:03 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Bought Speed True--I'd think that fit (and fitness) would matter a lot more than any fancy features of the bike that didn't relate to one's fit and aero-ness. I know I definitely passed a lot of REALLY fancy bikes in my last race. These were guys, so by definition they had at least an 8-minute head start on me (women started in the last wave) and I was going 30-31 kph. Some of them were on bikes that I know are pushing 10,000 USD (maybe more here in Asia) and at most averaging 25 kph. Most of those guys (for some reason, fewer slower women on fancy bikes) would have seen a lot more gains from losing some pounds off their persons than ounces off their bikes. The other thing I noticed is that a lot of these dudes weren't down on their aero bars consistently. It doesn't matter how fancy the bike is; you're not aero if you're out of the bars half the time, especially in a flat, windy race! That's a matter of fit and training. |
| 2015-05-19 6:46 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| Subject: RE: Bought Speed One thing to keep in mind about wind tunnel testing is that most of it is done simulating 30 mph, and what benefits you would see traveling at those speeds. So while one frame/bike might be 0.3 mph faster than another bike during wind tunnel testing, that doesn't mean you'll see that same increase in speed on the road at 20-21 mph. It might be closer to 0.15 mph difference. The good news is that over a given course, the overall time savings end up being very similar as the slower you go, the more time you are spending getting an aerodynamic benefit...even if it's not as much of a mph benefit. |
| 2015-05-19 7:50 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Bought Speed From entry level road bike with clip ons to newer P2 I'm pretty much the same. I've had a few fit sessions on the P2 so I'd like to think the fit is close. I will say true or just in my head that I run better off the P2. |
| 2015-05-19 9:00 PM in reply to: #5116735 |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Yeah I don't think it's much difference at all. Because I'm talking about a decent tri bike that one has been fitted on to a more expensive bike. Pretty negligible I'd say |
| 2015-05-20 4:21 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| Subject: RE: Bought Speed Spend the money on latex tubes, GP4000s tires and an aero helmet. It'll be a hell of a lot cheaper and you'll actually see the difference. |
| 2015-05-20 7:14 AM in reply to: k9car363 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by k9car363 Originally posted by ChrisM From entry level felt on day one, to top end IA on day 2, same fit? 0.0, maybe 0.5 for the first hour for the excitement factor, then fitness kicks back in Over time, if there is greater motivation to ride the $$$ bike, then perhaps some gains, but that's not cuz of the bike itself So why the hell did I buy the SC 9.9? Oh yeah, because it was more like 2.5 mph for me. Edited because I can't spell simple words like "it." Your SC 9.9 was 2.5MPH faster than your previous tri bike, same fitness, same fit ? |
| 2015-05-20 7:24 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by axteraa If you are willing to believe Cervelo in their white paper on the P5, they claim a 57 to 110 gram reduction in drag compared to other superbikes and then another 100 grams compared to a typical tri bike. What is interesting about the P5 is a lot of there improvement was actually in the aerobars and not the frame itself, although that improved as well. |
| 2015-05-20 7:42 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| Member 587 | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by mchadcota2 Yeah I don't think it's much difference at all. Because I'm talking about a decent tri bike that one has been fitted on to a more expensive bike. Pretty negligible I'd say Correct. There will be no noticeable difference. |
| 2015-05-20 10:31 AM in reply to: 5stones |
Expert 1644 Oklahoma | Subject: RE: Bought Speed When talking about how much bikes have improved over the years I always find it interesting to look back at Kona winning bike splits. 2005 - 4:25:24 2006 - 4:18:23 2007 - 4:37:32 2008 - 4:37:19 2009 - 4:37:33 2010 - 4:31:51 2011 - 4:24:05 2012 - 4:35:15 2013 - 4:25:35 2014 - 4:20:46 |
| 2015-05-20 10:44 AM in reply to: EKH |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Wind and heat can have a pretty good impact on bike splits so it's nearly impossible to go apples to apples on race courses. Wind tunnel is the closest we can get for comparison purposes. |
| 2015-05-20 10:50 AM in reply to: EKH |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by EKH When talking about how much bikes have improved over the years I always find it interesting to look back at Kona winning bike splits. 2005 - 4:25:24 2006 - 4:18:23 2007 - 4:37:32 2008 - 4:37:19 2009 - 4:37:33 2010 - 4:31:51 2011 - 4:24:05 2012 - 4:35:15 2013 - 4:25:35 2014 - 4:20:46 Data like this could hurt the n+1 formula being justified!!! |
| 2015-05-20 10:56 AM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by k9car363 Your SC 9.9 was 2.5MPH faster than your previous tri bike, same fitness, same fit ? Originally posted by ChrisM From entry level felt on day one, to top end IA on day 2, same fit? 0.0, maybe 0.5 for the first hour for the excitement factor, then fitness kicks back in Over time, if there is greater motivation to ride the $$$ bike, then perhaps some gains, but that's not cuz of the bike itself So why the hell did I buy the SC 9.9? Oh yeah, because it was more like 2.5 mph for me. Edited because I can't spell simple words like "it." Not possible. There are other variables at work. That's more in line with the difference from average road bike to higher end tri bike with a pretty good fit. Chris's response of 0-.5 mph is more in line with what should be expected from an entry level tri bike to a mid-to-high end tri bike with all other variables the same.
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| 2015-05-20 10:58 AM in reply to: mike761 |
Pro 6191 | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by EKH When talking about how much bikes have improved over the years I always find it interesting to look back at Kona winning bike splits. 2005 - 4:25:24 2006 - 4:18:23 2007 - 4:37:32 2008 - 4:37:19 2009 - 4:37:33 2010 - 4:31:51 2011 - 4:24:05 2012 - 4:35:15 2013 - 4:25:35 2014 - 4:20:46 Data like this could hurt the n+1 formula being justified!!! Not the best source for the "how fast are bikes" data... The bigger question in play here involves power, weather, racing tactics... You might save a few watts with the newest superbike and aero set-up... are you going to ride just as hard as you did before, or race tactically and save a little bit of that saved energy for the run? Straight TTs may be a better source than Kona data, though still maybe not optimal. |
| 2015-05-20 11:03 AM in reply to: ratherbeswimming |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Bought Speed Originally posted by ratherbeswimming Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by EKH When talking about how much bikes have improved over the years I always find it interesting to look back at Kona winning bike splits. 2005 - 4:25:24 2006 - 4:18:23 2007 - 4:37:32 2008 - 4:37:19 2009 - 4:37:33 2010 - 4:31:51 2011 - 4:24:05 2012 - 4:35:15 2013 - 4:25:35 2014 - 4:20:46 Data like this could hurt the n+1 formula being justified!!! Not the best source for the "how fast are bikes" data... The bigger question in play here involves power, weather, racing tactics... You might save a few watts with the newest superbike and aero set-up... are you going to ride just as hard as you did before, or race tactically and save a little bit of that saved energy for the run? Straight TTs may be a better source than Kona data, though still maybe not optimal. It also only uses 1 guy each time. The field has been getting faster, but there are still the other issues brought up. |
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