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2015-08-17 7:34 AM

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Subject: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
I had two "events" this weekend. I ran a 5k on Saturday and did a 100 meter TT in the pool this morning. I fell short of my goals on both and took the act of bad pacing to an art form. So this is sort of a vent post, but would also like any advice on how to pace short races.

For the 5k, my goal was sub-19. I ended up running a 19:40, with the following mile splits: 6:00, 6:30, 6:40, with the wheels coming off at the end.

For the 100 m (SCM) this morning, I wanted to get around 1:02ish, but ended up at 1:04...and this is where the pacing got really ugly; first 50 - 29, second 50 - 35.

In both cases I got it in my head that they were such short events that pacing wasn't as important. I hadn't done either in a long time, but sitting here on Monday with missing both goals and dying at the end of both events, I'm feeling like there is a lot of unfinished business out there.

What I'm thinking for now is to dust off, and find another 5k a couple weeks out (my race calendar is clear until the B2B half in October) and run again, with the lessons learned and try to run it right. For the 100m, I may just try again next week and see what happens, but this time with a clear goal on negative splits as opposed to time.

Any tips on keeping yourself reigned in? I find that to be the hardest part. All logic goes out the window the second the buzzer sounds. I'm thinking it's simply practice. Back to when I was running 5ks a lot, it took quite a few before I could really feel how to pace them, and my PR was one of the only one's I remember with negative splits. It's just one of those things that is easy in theory but really really hard in practice.


2015-08-17 7:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
I'm at 20 min in 5k pr. If you knew me 18 months ago, you'd be more than surprised as I am and never was more than a 100m sprint guy.
Most of my training is by personal design but I have used Daniel's Running Formula for run workout design. Even with VERY low overall mileage I have improved immensely by following his designs based on VDOT scores. Interval workouts have taught me to pace properly, r-pace reps have taught me to run above threshold and get used to the pain. Since I do less than usual volume of total miles, I change my final t-pace or interval pace in workouts to a negative split which has helped me in final kicks of my last two races. For me, that pacing work has come during the workouts of intervals. Other than that tweak, I have listened to Daniel's advice for where I train pace wise and STICK TO IT, because I am a go too hard kind of guy once I get any hit of adrenaline. I'll write up the workout and upload it to my garmin and have it alert when I am wrong, it's such a confidence booster when you barely have it vibrate because you locked it in according to plan. It buzzed alot when I started that's for sure

Edited by TJHammer 2015-08-17 7:46 AM
2015-08-17 7:59 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Pacing is difficult in a 100 free. It's so close to the red line of a 50. My PR for 50 is 22 flat and 100 not much under 49 and those were faiy consistent. Part of the positive split is the second turn vs start but I'd imagine you started from wall. Either way still quick times so I wouldn't be too disappointed !
2015-08-17 8:06 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by TJHammer

I'm at 20 min in 5k pr. If you knew me 18 months ago, you'd be more than surprised as I am and never was more than a 100m sprint guy.
Most of my training is by personal design but I have used Daniel's Running Formula for run workout design. Even with VERY low overall mileage I have improved immensely by following his designs based on VDOT scores. Interval workouts have taught me to pace properly, r-pace reps have taught me to run above threshold and get used to the pain. Since I do less than usual volume of total miles, I change my final t-pace or interval pace in workouts to a negative split which has helped me in final kicks of my last two races. For me, that pacing work has come during the workouts of intervals. Other than that tweak, I have listened to Daniel's advice for where I train pace wise and STICK TO IT, because I am a go too hard kind of guy once I get any hit of adrenaline. I'll write up the workout and upload it to my garmin and have it alert when I am wrong, it's such a confidence booster when you barely have it vibrate because you locked it in according to plan. It buzzed alot when I started that's for sure


I'll have to check him out. I've always just done my own thing for training (aside from about 6 months with a coach for the IM build up, but that had little to do with these types of events/speeds).
2015-08-17 8:09 AM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Pacing is difficult in a 100 free. It's so close to the red line of a 50. My PR for 50 is 22 flat and 100 not much under 49 and those were faiy consistent. Part of the positive split is the second turn vs start but I'd imagine you started from wall. Either way still quick times so I wouldn't be too disappointed !


Exactly...I have no idea how one would pace a 100. The other thing that is frustrating is the lack of improvement. I've only done these a few times since being back in the pool this year. The last time was in a SCY pool and I swam the 100 in 0:58, so the 1:04 in SCM is essentially the exact same time. It makes me wonder what I've been doing in the pool the past 6 months.
2015-08-17 8:17 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
About the only advice I could give for the 100m is that you will always be fresher in the first 50m so you actually need to put out much greater effort in the second 50m just to maintain speed as lactic acid starts to build up. At the speeds you're swimming, it's very close to an anaerobic effort. Effective flip turns and powerful pushes will also make a difference.

For 5K, practice by doing negative split runs, or pushing the last third of a run (before a short cooldown after), or trying to hit your fastest split on the last interval of set. I'm a true slow-twitch wonder so for me, 5K pretty much feels like a all-out sprint. I guess the only difference is that at the beginning (assuming you are running for your best time and not in a tactical track race), it's more of a feel-good (well, sorta good) fast sensation; for the second, trying to maintain the pace; for the last mile, you're just trying not to puke before you cross the finish line. I think our coach used to say, "Start fast, stay smooth, hang on, kick it in." That's about the extent of what I can keep in mind during a race. That strategy got me to a 17 flat back in the day, with plenty of puking just over the line.


2015-08-17 8:46 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

For your 5k, a 6:00 first mile is about right to hit sub-19.  Your problem was that you couldn't maintain it, so the conditions weren't quite right for you to reach that kind of goal--whether it was too hot, too hilly, bad day, or just too aggressive a goal.

Probably the same thing on your swim.  To go 1:02, you probably have to hit the first 50 in :29-:30.  You did.  You just couldn't hold it.

 

2015-08-17 9:06 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by TJHammer I'm at 20 min in 5k pr. If you knew me 18 months ago, you'd be more than surprised as I am and never was more than a 100m sprint guy. Most of my training is by personal design but I have used Daniel's Running Formula for run workout design. Even with VERY low overall mileage I have improved immensely by following his designs based on VDOT scores. Interval workouts have taught me to pace properly, r-pace reps have taught me to run above threshold and get used to the pain. Since I do less than usual volume of total miles, I change my final t-pace or interval pace in workouts to a negative split which has helped me in final kicks of my last two races. For me, that pacing work has come during the workouts of intervals. Other than that tweak, I have listened to Daniel's advice for where I train pace wise and STICK TO IT, because I am a go too hard kind of guy once I get any hit of adrenaline. I'll write up the workout and upload it to my garmin and have it alert when I am wrong, it's such a confidence booster when you barely have it vibrate because you locked it in according to plan. It buzzed alot when I started that's for sure
I'll have to check him out. I've always just done my own thing for training (aside from about 6 months with a coach for the IM build up, but that had little to do with these types of events/speeds).

You likely don't know what the paces you want (in running) actually feel like.  Your body/brain has to learn that.  IMO Interval work on the track is the shortest route to that knowledge.  It's not something that can be done overnight, but truly fast racing absolutely requires that you learn it.

Start with 200's and 400's at a pace you KNOW you can hit for 10 reps on the same rest.  It will likely be slower than you think.  Work your way from there.

2015-08-17 9:08 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

Agree. Doesn't look like poor pacing. Opening splits seem fine for the goals. Just couldn't hold onto it. Sometimes that happens.

2015-08-17 9:09 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by TJHammer I'm at 20 min in 5k pr. If you knew me 18 months ago, you'd be more than surprised as I am and never was more than a 100m sprint guy. Most of my training is by personal design but I have used Daniel's Running Formula for run workout design. Even with VERY low overall mileage I have improved immensely by following his designs based on VDOT scores. Interval workouts have taught me to pace properly, r-pace reps have taught me to run above threshold and get used to the pain. Since I do less than usual volume of total miles, I change my final t-pace or interval pace in workouts to a negative split which has helped me in final kicks of my last two races. For me, that pacing work has come during the workouts of intervals. Other than that tweak, I have listened to Daniel's advice for where I train pace wise and STICK TO IT, because I am a go too hard kind of guy once I get any hit of adrenaline. I'll write up the workout and upload it to my garmin and have it alert when I am wrong, it's such a confidence booster when you barely have it vibrate because you locked it in according to plan. It buzzed alot when I started that's for sure
I'll have to check him out. I've always just done my own thing for training (aside from about 6 months with a coach for the IM build up, but that had little to do with these types of events/speeds).

You likely don't know what the paces you want (in running) actually feel like.  Your body/brain has to learn that.  IMO Interval work on the track is the shortest route to that knowledge.  It's not something that can be done overnight, but truly fast racing absolutely requires that you learn it.

Start with 200's and 400's at a pace you KNOW you can hit for 10 reps on the same rest.  It will likely be slower than you think.  Work your way from there.




I've never done track work before. When you rest do you actually stop and walk, or do you just continue with a run? What sort of rest interval would that entail?
2015-08-17 9:12 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

As for the swim.....I just texted Jr. to see what he had to say about pacing a 100.  I said, when you swim your fastest 100's do you pace the first 50 at all?  His response...."No, the only difference between a 50 and a 100 is that in a 50 I only breath twice the whole race and in a 100 I breath every 6 strokes.".....then he said, "tell him to clean his turns up". LOL



2015-08-17 9:18 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by Left Brain

As for the swim.....I just texted Jr. to see what he had to say about pacing a 100.  I said, when you swim your fastest 100's do you pace the first 50 at all?  His response...."No, the only difference between a 50 and a 100 is that in a 50 I only breath twice the whole race and in a 100 I breath every 6 strokes.".....then he said, "tell him to clean his turns up". LOL




That's funny that he said that. The coach who timed me said I was breathing right out of ever turn and it was in essence hitting the breaks every time. He figured I lost a second or two just on that. Another reason I want to try again in week or so.
2015-08-17 9:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by TJHammer I'm at 20 min in 5k pr. If you knew me 18 months ago, you'd be more than surprised as I am and never was more than a 100m sprint guy. Most of my training is by personal design but I have used Daniel's Running Formula for run workout design. Even with VERY low overall mileage I have improved immensely by following his designs based on VDOT scores. Interval workouts have taught me to pace properly, r-pace reps have taught me to run above threshold and get used to the pain. Since I do less than usual volume of total miles, I change my final t-pace or interval pace in workouts to a negative split which has helped me in final kicks of my last two races. For me, that pacing work has come during the workouts of intervals. Other than that tweak, I have listened to Daniel's advice for where I train pace wise and STICK TO IT, because I am a go too hard kind of guy once I get any hit of adrenaline. I'll write up the workout and upload it to my garmin and have it alert when I am wrong, it's such a confidence booster when you barely have it vibrate because you locked it in according to plan. It buzzed alot when I started that's for sure
I'll have to check him out. I've always just done my own thing for training (aside from about 6 months with a coach for the IM build up, but that had little to do with these types of events/speeds).

You likely don't know what the paces you want (in running) actually feel like.  Your body/brain has to learn that.  IMO Interval work on the track is the shortest route to that knowledge.  It's not something that can be done overnight, but truly fast racing absolutely requires that you learn it.

Start with 200's and 400's at a pace you KNOW you can hit for 10 reps on the same rest.  It will likely be slower than you think.  Work your way from there.

I've never done track work before. When you rest do you actually stop and walk, or do you just continue with a run? What sort of rest interval would that entail?

What we do is equal rest, and it is usually stopping and walking for the fast sets.  You can do an active recovery for slower sets.  If a 6 minute mile is something that feels pretty good for you, then maybe start with 100-110 second 400's.  Find that time you can hold for the entire set.  If you find that those intervals are too fast then slow them down your next workout.  It is important that you be able to hold the time for the entire set.  If your time per interval starts to creep up you are wasting your time, stop and start over next time with slower intervals..  Obviously this is a really simplified answer......but the idea is to get to a point where you can say, "I'm going to run a 400 in X seconds, and hit it right on the money.  Once you are there, you can increase your interval length, first to 600, then to 800 and work on that pacing.  For a 5K, being able to feel those 800's is optimal.  This is NOT a short process and you should be extra cautious to not over run your intervals.....you can hurt yourself.



Edited by Left Brain 2015-08-17 9:23 AM
2015-08-17 9:35 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

For your 5k, a 6:00 first mile is about right to hit sub-19.  Your problem was that you couldn't maintain it, so the conditions weren't quite right for you to reach that kind of goal--whether it was too hot, too hilly, bad day, or just too aggressive a goal.

Probably the same thing on your swim.  To go 1:02, you probably have to hit the first 50 in :29-:30.  You did.  You just couldn't hold it.

 

I agree with JK.  The fastest time is almost always going to be achieved by either equal or slightly negative splits.  For a 19 minute 5K, that's an average of 6:07 per mile.  Splits of 6:00 - 6:15 for someone who's right on the bubble.   I agree  that on this day, you probably didn't have the fitness and/or freshness to break 19 anyway, based on how much you slowed down.

Not 19 minutes, but here's a 5k I ran a few years ago where I had good pacing to run 21 minutes:  http://tpks.ws/aXQKg

The mile splits were 6:43, 6:49, and 6:57, so I say good, but not perfect pacing.  If I had held back slightly more on the first mile, I may have been able to go faster for the 2nd and 3rd miles, and run a little faster total time.  For those who use HR, my HR was up to 165 (94% of LT) within 90 seconds of the start, and rose steadily throughout the race until it was at 182 (104% of LT) at the finish.  For the race overall, the average HR was within 1 bpm of LT.  The warmup was a 16 minute run that ended about 15 minutes before the race started.

Using a tool like a Garmin can help a lot for someone who struggles to hold back enough in the first mile, but in any event, it takes practice.  Racing frequently is a great way to learn.

 

2015-08-17 10:55 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Goggles PizzanoPacing is difficult in a 100 free. It's so close to the red line of a 50. My PR for 50 is 22 flat and 100 not much under 49 and those were faiy consistent. Part of the positive split is the second turn vs start but I'd imagine you started from wall. Either way still quick times so I wouldn't be too disappointed !
Exactly...I have no idea how one would pace a 100. The other thing that is frustrating is the lack of improvement. I've only done these a few times since being back in the pool this year. The last time was in a SCY pool and I swam the 100 in 0:58, so the 1:04 in SCM is essentially the exact same time. It makes me wonder what I've been doing in the pool the past 6 months.
What kind of yards /wk are you putting in ? The lousy 2-3k / wk I'm doing this year aren't doing much. If I start putting time in and go back 7-10k / wk my times drop significantly. If I time warped back to HS/college and was putting in 5-10k a day I'd probably get fast again.
2015-08-17 11:23 AM
in reply to: 3mar


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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

For the run -

 

You're right, it's just practice. It takes a bunch of practice to become more disciplined about not going off at the gun. Helps a lot to remind yourself that your goal at your next race is NOT pacing against the next fastest guy, but your next race goal should be to try and negative split the race (you will almost definitely end up not doing that, but you'll be closer to it by having it as your goal.)

 

In fact, you might want to remind yourself in your next race that if you're not getting passed by a lot of folks in the first half mile, you're going too fast. (I run 5ks in sub 18:30 right now, and I'm always amazed that even in small local races of 200 people, around 30 people will pass me in the first half mile despite the fact I run dead even splits consistently.)

 

As for holding that fast speed, the fact that you start fast 5k suggests that you could benefit from more weekly mileage if your goal is to maintain that 1st mile speed for the 3 miles. The increased weekly mileage really helps from dropping off pace, even if you start aggressively. 



2015-08-17 12:35 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

For your 5k, a 6:00 first mile is about right to hit sub-19.  Your problem was that you couldn't maintain it, so the conditions weren't quite right for you to reach that kind of goal--whether it was too hot, too hilly, bad day, or just too aggressive a goal.

Probably the same thing on your swim.  To go 1:02, you probably have to hit the first 50 in :29-:30.  You did.  You just couldn't hold it.

 

I agree with JK.  The fastest time is almost always going to be achieved by either equal or slightly negative splits.  For a 19 minute 5K, that's an average of 6:07 per mile.  Splits of 6:00 - 6:15 for someone who's right on the bubble.   I agree  that on this day, you probably didn't have the fitness and/or freshness to break 19 anyway, based on how much you slowed down.

Not 19 minutes, but here's a 5k I ran a few years ago where I had good pacing to run 21 minutes:  http://tpks.ws/aXQKg

The mile splits were 6:43, 6:49, and 6:57, so I say good, but not perfect pacing.  If I had held back slightly more on the first mile, I may have been able to go faster for the 2nd and 3rd miles, and run a little faster total time.  For those who use HR, my HR was up to 165 (94% of LT) within 90 seconds of the start, and rose steadily throughout the race until it was at 182 (104% of LT) at the finish.  For the race overall, the average HR was within 1 bpm of LT.  The warmup was a 16 minute run that ended about 15 minutes before the race started.

Using a tool like a Garmin can help a lot for someone who struggles to hold back enough in the first mile, but in any event, it takes practice.  Racing frequently is a great way to learn.

 




For some reason I thought the PR I ran a couple of years ago was all negative splits so this made me look back....guess not. That day I ran a 6:07, 6:18, 6:20. So it looks like I just didn't have it Saturday.

I wore a hrm for the race but I don't know my LT or even my zones for that matter. Here is the screen shot from my phone. It's hard to see but there is a drop off for about 1/10th of a mile at the end where I was struggling but still kicked out the finish.



(image.jpg)



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2015-08-17 8:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
That's really interesting to me. Running is my weak point (came off the bike in 3rd at last weekend's Oly, finished in 8th) and this is what my Garmin shows:
 photo 1000islsHR_zpsgwz8ux6g.png
I think this is at least as bad in terms of pacing. Hard to tell from the graph but the gorilla jumped on my back around kms 6-7, and I was able to find some sort of a rhythm in the last couple kms and finish with a strong effort. I was pretty cooked at the finish... I'd be interested to hear what others think about this. 3mar you are pretty steady with only a 5 bpm difference between AVG and MAX - my AVG was 164 and max was 176, so way more gap.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I just saw 3mar's graph and realized it was the opposite of mine. I can't fathom going any harder than I did for the first 3/4 of the race, and laid it all out there at the end, whereas 3mar is nice and steady the whole way with a gradual dropoff towards the end. What's the explanation for this, physiologically? Cardio vs. muscles, power vs. endurance? Is there any insight as to what each of us would need to work on in training to bring these more in line? Should your HR graph look like a flat line, gradually drop off like 3mars, or kick up at the end like mine?

Edited by SenatorClayDavis 2015-08-17 8:10 PM
2015-08-18 12:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
5km you just have to force yourself to go slow that 1st 500m - 1km keep an eye on your watch. Its hard when people are overtaking you, but you have to be disciplined. One of hardest things I had to do regarding pacing was to not go flat out on the bike for my first IM and to allow literally hundreds of people to overtake me. I hit the run relatively fresh and proceeded to overtake all those riders that had overtaken me!

When I'm doing 100m sets in the pool (25m pool) I'll have my time alert set to 18/19 sec (for 25m) so I know how I'm sitting at 25m, 50m and 75m. Its amazing how easy and slow that first 50m can feel yet you're actually really moving, so I find the vibration alert works pretty well at helping me control my pace.

Edited by zedzded 2015-08-18 1:01 AM
2015-08-18 5:23 PM
in reply to: SenatorClayDavis

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis

That's really interesting to me. Running is my weak point (came off the bike in 3rd at last weekend's Oly, finished in 8th) and this is what my Garmin shows:
 photo 1000islsHR_zpsgwz8ux6g.png
I think this is at least as bad in terms of pacing. Hard to tell from the graph but the gorilla jumped on my back around kms 6-7, and I was able to find some sort of a rhythm in the last couple kms and finish with a strong effort. I was pretty cooked at the finish... I'd be interested to hear what others think about this. 3mar you are pretty steady with only a 5 bpm difference between AVG and MAX - my AVG was 164 and max was 176, so way more gap.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I just saw 3mar's graph and realized it was the opposite of mine. I can't fathom going any harder than I did for the first 3/4 of the race, and laid it all out there at the end, whereas 3mar is nice and steady the whole way with a gradual dropoff towards the end. What's the explanation for this, physiologically? Cardio vs. muscles, power vs. endurance? Is there any insight as to what each of us would need to work on in training to bring these more in line? Should your HR graph look like a flat line, gradually drop off like 3mars, or kick up at the end like mine?


To me it looks like your effort increased throughout the race with your increase in HR. I would guess that means you paced it. I was maxed out from pretty much the beginning. There was no going any higher for me. That's my thoughts anyway, but I'm the one asking the questions so I doubt I'm the guy to answer anything
2015-08-18 7:26 PM
in reply to: SenatorClayDavis

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I just saw 3mar's graph and realized it was the opposite of mine. I can't fathom going any harder than I did for the first 3/4 of the race, and laid it all out there at the end, whereas 3mar is nice and steady the whole way with a gradual dropoff towards the end. What's the explanation for this, physiologically? Cardio vs. muscles, power vs. endurance? Is there any insight as to what each of us would need to work on in training to bring these more in line? Should your HR graph look like a flat line, gradually drop off like 3mars, or kick up at the end like mine?


It would appear from your graph that you paced fairly well - perhaps a bit hot out of T2 but it looks like you were able to be pretty steady throughout despite where things started to get tough. The increasing of your HR throughout the run is about what I would expect and doesn't lead me to believe that you paced fairly well. As far as HR, I wouldn't worry about the delta too much; most athletes, as they get closer to the finish of an endurance race are able to push harder so, for a 5k for example, it is very common to open with a fast mile, fall off a bit in mile 2 and then put up another fast mile to finish.

For 3mar, there are really two things go on (but they are related):

100m - for the 100m, an anaerobic effort, he is going to be taxing two main systems, the ATP/PCr and glycolytic. The ATP/PCr is going to be the primary energy system for events up to about 10s while the glycolytic will come in after that and, depending on the athlete, generally be the primary system for everything from 10s-90s (and often slightly beyond for a well trained athlete). With the big difference between the two 50s (even taking the dive start out - assuming he did a dive) then what happened was he went out, tapped into his ATP/PCr in the first 50 and then didn't have the fitness in the glycolytic system to maintain enough speed to hit the desired 1:02. There are a couple of ways to address this but since we are endurance focused, I'm going to skip going into those details.

5k - this is an aerobic effort so most energy comes from aerobic energy pathways however the glycolytic will supplement the aerobic system so it is important as well. The extra energy from the glycolytic will be why blood lactate accumulates and the key here is pacing based on fitness so you can be even or slightly negative across the 3.1 miles. In this case, it appears that first mile was way too fast for fitness on the day and as a result, he fatigued and subsequent splits were quite a bit off of what he was targeting. Based on this there are a few possibilities I would consider addressing:

1) Doesn't have the fitness - train more, train more a threshold efforts to improve bodies ability to deal with blood lactate
2) Poor pacing - focus on hitting paces more accurately - instead of 6:00/mile, perhaps try a 6:05 or 6:10 first mile and focus on being able to hit that pace. Very likely a 6:10/mile for the first mile would have seen a faster overall run (perhaps not to his goal but still faster overall)
3) Learn how to suffer - much of sitting at a higher pace is knowing how to deal with the discomfort of holding that pace - much like the "shut up legs" Jens is famous for, more time at or faster than goal pace (at appropriate times) in training can make a world of difference

Shane


2015-08-18 7:45 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I just saw 3mar's graph and realized it was the opposite of mine. I can't fathom going any harder than I did for the first 3/4 of the race, and laid it all out there at the end, whereas 3mar is nice and steady the whole way with a gradual dropoff towards the end. What's the explanation for this, physiologically? Cardio vs. muscles, power vs. endurance? Is there any insight as to what each of us would need to work on in training to bring these more in line? Should your HR graph look like a flat line, gradually drop off like 3mars, or kick up at the end like mine?
It would appear from your graph that you paced fairly well - perhaps a bit hot out of T2 but it looks like you were able to be pretty steady throughout despite where things started to get tough. The increasing of your HR throughout the run is about what I would expect and doesn't lead me to believe that you paced fairly well. As far as HR, I wouldn't worry about the delta too much; most athletes, as they get closer to the finish of an endurance race are able to push harder so, for a 5k for example, it is very common to open with a fast mile, fall off a bit in mile 2 and then put up another fast mile to finish. For 3mar, there are really two things go on (but they are related): 100m - for the 100m, an anaerobic effort, he is going to be taxing two main systems, the ATP/PCr and glycolytic. The ATP/PCr is going to be the primary energy system for events up to about 10s while the glycolytic will come in after that and, depending on the athlete, generally be the primary system for everything from 10s-90s (and often slightly beyond for a well trained athlete). With the big difference between the two 50s (even taking the dive start out - assuming he did a dive) then what happened was he went out, tapped into his ATP/PCr in the first 50 and then didn't have the fitness in the glycolytic system to maintain enough speed to hit the desired 1:02. There are a couple of ways to address this but since we are endurance focused, I'm going to skip going into those details. 5k - this is an aerobic effort so most energy comes from aerobic energy pathways however the glycolytic will supplement the aerobic system so it is important as well. The extra energy from the glycolytic will be why blood lactate accumulates and the key here is pacing based on fitness so you can be even or slightly negative across the 3.1 miles. In this case, it appears that first mile was way too fast for fitness on the day and as a result, he fatigued and subsequent splits were quite a bit off of what he was targeting. Based on this there are a few possibilities I would consider addressing: 1) Doesn't have the fitness - train more, train more a threshold efforts to improve bodies ability to deal with blood lactate 2) Poor pacing - focus on hitting paces more accurately - instead of 6:00/mile, perhaps try a 6:05 or 6:10 first mile and focus on being able to hit that pace. Very likely a 6:10/mile for the first mile would have seen a faster overall run (perhaps not to his goal but still faster overall) 3) Learn how to suffer - much of sitting at a higher pace is knowing how to deal with the discomfort of holding that pace - much like the "shut up legs" Jens is famous for, more time at or faster than goal pace (at appropriate times) in training can make a world of difference Shane

Of every good thing written here by Shane.......really, that's the best.  You (collective you) may think you know how to suffer, but you don't.  Truly fast people hurt BAD during their efforts.  It's another level of pain.

2015-08-18 8:45 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
100 is a tough one. Sammy save up and you are not out quick enough... go out too hard and a piano comes crashing down.
2015-08-19 9:58 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I just saw 3mar's graph and realized it was the opposite of mine. I can't fathom going any harder than I did for the first 3/4 of the race, and laid it all out there at the end, whereas 3mar is nice and steady the whole way with a gradual dropoff towards the end. What's the explanation for this, physiologically? Cardio vs. muscles, power vs. endurance? Is there any insight as to what each of us would need to work on in training to bring these more in line? Should your HR graph look like a flat line, gradually drop off like 3mars, or kick up at the end like mine?
It would appear from your graph that you paced fairly well - perhaps a bit hot out of T2 but it looks like you were able to be pretty steady throughout despite where things started to get tough. The increasing of your HR throughout the run is about what I would expect and doesn't lead me to believe that you paced fairly well. As far as HR, I wouldn't worry about the delta too much; most athletes, as they get closer to the finish of an endurance race are able to push harder so, for a 5k for example, it is very common to open with a fast mile, fall off a bit in mile 2 and then put up another fast mile to finish. For 3mar, there are really two things go on (but they are related): 100m - for the 100m, an anaerobic effort, he is going to be taxing two main systems, the ATP/PCr and glycolytic. The ATP/PCr is going to be the primary energy system for events up to about 10s while the glycolytic will come in after that and, depending on the athlete, generally be the primary system for everything from 10s-90s (and often slightly beyond for a well trained athlete). With the big difference between the two 50s (even taking the dive start out - assuming he did a dive) then what happened was he went out, tapped into his ATP/PCr in the first 50 and then didn't have the fitness in the glycolytic system to maintain enough speed to hit the desired 1:02. There are a couple of ways to address this but since we are endurance focused, I'm going to skip going into those details. 5k - this is an aerobic effort so most energy comes from aerobic energy pathways however the glycolytic will supplement the aerobic system so it is important as well. The extra energy from the glycolytic will be why blood lactate accumulates and the key here is pacing based on fitness so you can be even or slightly negative across the 3.1 miles. In this case, it appears that first mile was way too fast for fitness on the day and as a result, he fatigued and subsequent splits were quite a bit off of what he was targeting. Based on this there are a few possibilities I would consider addressing: 1) Doesn't have the fitness - train more, train more a threshold efforts to improve bodies ability to deal with blood lactate 2) Poor pacing - focus on hitting paces more accurately - instead of 6:00/mile, perhaps try a 6:05 or 6:10 first mile and focus on being able to hit that pace. Very likely a 6:10/mile for the first mile would have seen a faster overall run (perhaps not to his goal but still faster overall) 3) Learn how to suffer - much of sitting at a higher pace is knowing how to deal with the discomfort of holding that pace - much like the "shut up legs" Jens is famous for, more time at or faster than goal pace (at appropriate times) in training can make a world of difference Shane

Of every good thing written here by Shane.......really, that's the best.  You (collective you) may think you know how to suffer, but you don't.  Truly fast people hurt BAD during their efforts.  It's another level of pain.




I have to disagree with you there LB, at least in this instance. I was hurting across that finish line, like doubled over gasping laying on the ground hurting.. If it's one thing I can be confident of is there was absolutely no way I was going any harder on that last 0.1 miles.

That brings me to another point; I go hard every day. Like every work out. I'm either doing intervals, tempos, or sets in the pool, but I never do z1 or z2 work. And I almost always push to z4/5 for at least part of every training session, if I don't I don't feel like I've finished and plodding along in z1/2 is just unbearable to me. I'm miserable. So I've convinced myself that because I cross train that it's ok. That and I listen to my body. Normally I can go 7 day/week like that for about two to three weeks without a rest day, but when I start feeling it, I take the day off and I'm right back the next day. I hear people on here talk about running saying that the majority is done at an easy pace, and I'm like; really? Is it wrong? I'm seeing gains and I'm about to turn 37 with but with very minimal injuries (a sore muscle or joint here or there). The only one that took me out of the game for a week was breaking my toe on a chair. With cross training in triathlon, is it ok to to hard every day? If not, how do you get over the mental hurdle of going easy (boredom, no rush, etc)

For swimming, I was never a sprinter so I have no idea how to train for that sort of thing, but will be in a masters meet in a couple of months that doesn't have any long events. What I'm confused about is; in running, you make sure that you run at your race pace, albeit in shorter durations. In swimming do you do the same thing? The fastest I go on any given day is 1:10-1:15/100yd on repeats and maybe 30-35 on 50yds. Whereas in a race, I'd want my 100yd time to be around 55-56. So how do you train for that? (I'm switching to yards here just because the meet is SCY)
2015-08-19 10:19 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

Originally posted by 3mar I have to disagree with you there LB, at least in this instance. I was hurting across that finish line, like doubled over gasping laying on the ground hurting.. If it's one thing I can be confident of is there was absolutely no way I was going any harder on that last 0.1 miles. That brings me to another point; I go hard every day. Like every work out. I'm either doing intervals, tempos, or sets in the pool, but I never do z1 or z2 work. And I almost always push to z4/5 for at least part of every training session, if I don't I don't feel like I've finished and plodding along in z1/2 is just unbearable to me. I'm miserable. So I've convinced myself that because I cross train that it's ok. That and I listen to my body. Normally I can go 7 day/week like that for about two to three weeks without a rest day, but when I start feeling it, I take the day off and I'm right back the next day. I hear people on here talk about running saying that the majority is done at an easy pace, and I'm like; really? Is it wrong? I'm seeing gains and I'm about to turn 37 with but with very minimal injuries (a sore muscle or joint here or there). The only one that took me out of the game for a week was breaking my toe on a chair. With cross training in triathlon, is it ok to to hard every day? If not, how do you get over the mental hurdle of going easy (boredom, no rush, etc) For swimming, I was never a sprinter so I have no idea how to train for that sort of thing, but will be in a masters meet in a couple of months that doesn't have any long events. What I'm confused about is; in running, you make sure that you run at your race pace, albeit in shorter durations. In swimming do you do the same thing? The fastest I go on any given day is 1:10-1:15/100yd on repeats and maybe 30-35 on 50yds. Whereas in a race, I'd want my 100yd time to be around 55-56. So how do you train for that? (I'm switching to yards here just because the meet is SCY)

You'll need to do some time at the fast pace.  

- Do some all out 25s
- Do descending sets of 50s

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