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2015-08-27 1:10 AM


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Subject: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Hi everyone,

After I bought a new tri-watch, I'm checking to get some more value uot of the data it spits. I've setup an account at TrainingPeaks and got a 14 day trial on the premium edition. There I found to my great surprise a chart which shows my current form (based on my old data) and how that is expected to evolve in the next few days, including showing tapering and supercompensation!! I did not know there were graphs on this already existing for amateurs like myself (but then again, I'm still very novice to this all).

Now my question is: is anyone using this for a longer period and has a view on the accuracy of it all, in other words, is it worth paying 150$ of licence fee?

If not, is there something similar existing on the web (cheaper, better, more accurate....).

Thanks,

Pieter


2015-08-27 5:21 AM
in reply to: pnobels

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

I have my PMC all the way back to 2011.It is one of many useful tools to track training and load. I even use a PMC chart to project where I will be given a certain load.

For it to be more accurate it requires you set your threshold power, paces or HR properly. It is most accurate when using power on the bike.

There is a PMC for each individual sport and some people argue for/against combining bike with run or swim.

I personally thing TP is worth the $100 if you use several of the tools in it, not just the PMC.
Endurancetracker.com has a free version which is pretty good
Golden Cheetah which is a PC/Mac (non web) tool now does running and swimming on top of it's original biking PMC. It's a little more finicky to get working, but it does work.




2015-08-27 7:33 AM
in reply to: pnobels

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

I use TP premium and I feel it is worth it.  The PMC gets better with age and takes a little research to understand the concepts.  TP is my go to source when it comes to adjusting my plans.

2015-08-27 1:06 PM
in reply to: pnobels

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

Marc gave a nice explanation.

I'll add that I use it for all my athletes, and it's an excellent tool.  It is just that, though: a tool.  Like any tool, it takes some time to develop the skill to use it well.  It shouldn't be followed blindly chasing a high CTL.  Not all TSS points are equal when you're training for a specific event.  Having it in your toolbox, though, can be a powerful thing.  I combine it with specificity in training for events and the subjective experience of my athletes.  For example, you'll see some references that a sustained TSB of  -20 is the danger zone for illness and injury risk.  Yet, I've had athletes who start to break down if we take them to a -15 TSB for more than a week, and others who can handle an occasional -25.

 

 

2015-08-28 4:35 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

Originally posted by marcag ...Endurancetracker.com has a free version which is pretty good Golden Cheetah which is a PC/Mac (non web) tool now does running and swimming on top of it's original biking PMC. It's a little more finicky to get working, but it does work.

I'm pretty much just running these days.  does endurance tracker.com have a valid PMC that works with running?  with TRIMP?

And- will it auto upload from suunto/movescount?

I've used golden Cheetah- but I'd much rather an on-line version, accessible from anywhere.

 

thx, in advance.

2015-08-28 6:55 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

OK- so, I just tried out EnduranceTracker.  It did a great job at autoloading the lat 25 activities right from Strava.  And- it has it's own kinda PMC chart which looks pretty cool.  And then I try to manually upload an .fit file exported from Movescount, and it registers as like 9 trillion miles run or something.  So, it hosed up the whole thing.  Not sure how much time and effort i want to put into debugging the tool.  anyway- it looks pretty cool, but it's not working for me.



2015-08-29 6:15 AM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Originally posted by morey000

OK- so, I just tried out EnduranceTracker.  It did a great job at autoloading the lat 25 activities right from Strava.  And- it has it's own kinda PMC chart which looks pretty cool.  And then I try to manually upload an .fit file exported from Movescount, and it registers as like 9 trillion miles run or something.  So, it hosed up the whole thing.  Not sure how much time and effort i want to put into debugging the tool.  anyway- it looks pretty cool, but it's not working for me.




I have not used endurancetracker in a while. I had set it up for a friend who didn't want to pay for TP.
But when I did use it, I submitted a few bugs to the developer and they were fixed quickly. I would try that. There was a button on the page to submit questions and problems.

2015-08-29 12:55 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

It says to use .fit from moves count- but the gpx files work better.  Just did all my runs since the beginning of the year.  it gives you a nice PMC style chart.  It's based on the Banister model and uses some different terms such as "fitness" "freshness" and "form" which I need to read up on and I assume are similar to CTL, ATL, etc.    I'll play with it for a while.  Looks like a potentially great site.  thanks for the tip.

Plus- it looks like it will auto sync with Strava, which is pulling all my runs automatically from movescount- so, from now on, it will just be there for me to check out.  so, now I'll have all my workouts logged on:

BeginnerTri, DailyMile, sträva, Movescount, and now EnduranceTracker.  blah.   

 

And here I am with a laid up foot.  twisted my foot running yesterday- so I need to take a few days off to heal.  I guess this is what I'll do with my extra time.  Oh, I also got over 8 hours of sleep last night.  yay!

 

 

2015-08-29 8:43 PM
in reply to: pnobels

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Yep I use it both for myself and my athletes. It's a great tool and well worth what you pay!

Here's a post I wrote up on it a while back... wow almost 3 years ago now. Time for an updated one!

http://www.tzcoaching.com/2012/12/17/through-the-eyes-of-the-pmc-en...

2015-08-30 9:31 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

When it comes to tapering and race readiness, what TSB are you looking for?  How much in the +?

2015-08-30 3:50 PM
in reply to: GAUG3

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
It all depends on the athlete, everyone responds differently.

For all the years I've been racing, I know that a TSB of about -10 (yes, negative) I usually have a great race.

For one of my strong Oly distance athletes, its usually right around 0 to - 5.

For more of the beginner level athletes around +10 to +15 seems to work.

Remember the more positive TSB is, the lower fitness is; so you don't want to lose too much fitness while your tapering!


2015-08-30 5:27 PM
in reply to: tzcoaching

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Originally posted by tzcoaching
For all the years I've been racing, I know that a TSB of about -10 (yes, negative) I usually have a great race.


What kind of CTL do you go into the race with ?
2015-08-30 11:19 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Depends on the race.

C race= 60 - 70
B race = 70 - 80
A race = 90 - 100
2015-08-31 7:27 AM
in reply to: tzcoaching

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

Are you looking at all 3 sports?  I know some take the swim out of the chart.  Not sure why.

2015-08-31 8:50 AM
in reply to: tzcoaching

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Originally posted by tzcoaching

Depends on the race.

C race= 60 - 70
B race = 70 - 80
A race = 90 - 100


I would be interested to see how you schedule your taper week. It sounds like you don't taper at all.



2015-08-31 8:55 AM
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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

Originally posted by tzcoaching It all depends on the athlete, everyone responds differently. For all the years I've been racing, I know that a TSB of about -10 (yes, negative) I usually have a great race. For one of my strong Oly distance athletes, its usually right around 0 to - 5. For more of the beginner level athletes around +10 to +15 seems to work. Remember the more positive TSB is, the lower fitness is; so you don't want to lose too much fitness while your tapering!

I agree with all of this, except the last sentence.

Most people race best at a +5 to +15 TSB, but there are exceptions.  Also, keep in mind that TSS, and consequently, CTL, ATL, and TSB, will mean slightly different things depending on the protocol that you're using to determine FTP, LT, and Threshold paces, in addition to which TSS calculator you're using (power, pace, or HR).  Because of this, Tony's chart might be indicating a -5 TSB for one of his athletes, but the same athlete might be at 0 TSB for me, if we're using different testing protocols to establish training zones.

The reason I disagree with the last sentence, is because it's possible to have a high positive TSB, yet still have a high level of fitness.  TSB is just an indicator of fatigue versus freshness, which has implications regarding the rate you're gaining or losing fitness.  In other words, someone with a CTL of 90 and a TSB of +20 has a high level of fitness (CTL) and a high level of freshness (TSB), so they're likely to race fairly well.  Someone with a CTL of 100 and a TSB of -20 has a high level of fitness (CTL) but a high level of fatigue (TSB), so they're likely not to race well.

Each of these metrics on their own provides limited value.  It's only when we look at all of them together combined with the athlete's history, subjective feelings, and specificity of the training that generated these numbers, that conclusions can be drawn regarding their relative performance potential.

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2015-08-31 8:58 AM


2015-08-31 8:45 PM
in reply to: GAUG3

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Yes, all 3 sports. Some take out the swim because they might not have a swim metric watch; Garmin 910, 920 Swim or Finis.

2015-08-31 8:54 PM
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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by tzcoaching

Depends on the race.

C race= 60 - 70
B race = 70 - 80
A race = 90 - 100


I would be interested to see how you schedule your taper week. It sounds like you don't taper at all.






Here's the PMC for one of my athletes who just raced as an elite amateur in Chicago Olympic distance yesterday; finished just over 2 hours.

Had a CTL of 1.8 and TSB of 91.9. You can see last week he was at TSB 96, so there was a small taper for this race. His A race is next month's ITU World's in Chicago.

He normally trains 9 - 11 hours a week. The week leading up to Chicago he trained 5 hours (each day with a different focus):

Monday: 1:15 hour brick
Tue: 30 min swim / 30 min run
Wed: 60 min bike
Thur: 30 min swim / 30 min run
Fri: Off
Sat: 45 min brick
Sun: race

Edited by tzcoaching 2015-08-31 8:56 PM




(PMC Aug 31.png)



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2015-08-31 8:59 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by tzcoaching It all depends on the athlete, everyone responds differently. For all the years I've been racing, I know that a TSB of about -10 (yes, negative) I usually have a great race. For one of my strong Oly distance athletes, its usually right around 0 to - 5. For more of the beginner level athletes around +10 to +15 seems to work. Remember the more positive TSB is, the lower fitness is; so you don't want to lose too much fitness while your tapering!

I agree with all of this, except the last sentence.

Most people race best at a +5 to +15 TSB, but there are exceptions.  Also, keep in mind that TSS, and consequently, CTL, ATL, and TSB, will mean slightly different things depending on the protocol that you're using to determine FTP, LT, and Threshold paces, in addition to which TSS calculator you're using (power, pace, or HR).  Because of this, Tony's chart might be indicating a -5 TSB for one of his athletes, but the same athlete might be at 0 TSB for me, if we're using different testing protocols to establish training zones.

The reason I disagree with the last sentence, is because it's possible to have a high positive TSB, yet still have a high level of fitness.  TSB is just an indicator of fatigue versus freshness, which has implications regarding the rate you're gaining or losing fitness.  In other words, someone with a CTL of 90 and a TSB of +20 has a high level of fitness (CTL) and a high level of freshness (TSB), so they're likely to race fairly well.  Someone with a CTL of 100 and a TSB of -20 has a high level of fitness (CTL) but a high level of fatigue (TSB), so they're likely not to race well.

Each of these metrics on their own provides limited value.  It's only when we look at all of them together combined with the athlete's history, subjective feelings, and specificity of the training that generated these numbers, that conclusions can be drawn regarding their relative performance potential.

 




Completely agree! Definitely have to look at all the numbers along with general feelings & stress the athlete is having before making good decisions. It's only after piecing it together and looking at the larger picture can you understand how athletes really are going to respond!
2015-09-01 5:18 AM
in reply to: tzcoaching

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Originally posted by tzcoaching
Here's the PMC for one of my athletes who just raced as an elite amateur in Chicago Olympic distance yesterday; finished just over 2 hours.


thanks for posting that. Makes total sense now.
You had him peak in load the week before the race, had a huge negative TSB and brought him closer back to 0 by race day.

I guess it's the perfect example of the TSB on it's own meaning nothing.
It would be really hard to do that wit someone with a bigger load (say training for an IM), that would hit his biggest week sooner than the week before a race.

Will your athlete peak again in terms of ATL the week before Chicago ?

The other thing is a CTL of 90 for an elite athlete is not that high, so while his TSB seems low he is not run down. One pro IM athlete who showed his PMC had a CTL of 180. Try going into an IM race with a TSB of 0 when you hit 180 a few weeks before :-)

2015-09-01 3:33 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
This is all pretty interesting.. So much so that I went and signed up for Training Peaks and uploaded a few months workouts (kinda). I'm being coached remotely, but we don't talk too much about this sort of thing. It's been a bit of a crazy year for me schedule wise so I'm not sure what kind of data I will get out of it. I have a lot to learn!

One question I have about including swim metrics. I have a Suunto Ambit 2s and it will record laps. It only exports in .fit and .xlsx for swim workouts. Neither seem to upload very well to TP. If you can't upload them, do you record them manually or just leave them out?

Sorry if I've hijacked.. Carry on.


2015-09-01 4:09 PM
in reply to: tjones2k9

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Originally posted by tjones2k9

This is all pretty interesting.. So much so that I went and signed up for Training Peaks and uploaded a few months workouts (kinda). I'm being coached remotely, but we don't talk too much about this sort of thing. It's been a bit of a crazy year for me schedule wise so I'm not sure what kind of data I will get out of it. I have a lot to learn!

One question I have about including swim metrics. I have a Suunto Ambit 2s and it will record laps. It only exports in .fit and .xlsx for swim workouts. Neither seem to upload very well to TP. If you can't upload them, do you record them manually or just leave them out?

Sorry if I've hijacked.. Carry on.


I include my swim data. If I want to do an analysis without it, it's easy to check a box to exclude it.

I know some people that just put a distance and manually put a TSS/100m. So if they swim 3k, they'll put 70tss points
My Garmin gives me an average pace for the workout. I simply enter the distance and adjust the time so that TP calculates an average pace equal to what the Garmin told me. It then figures out a TSS for me.

For me a 70 TSS swim usually feels like a 70 rTSS run and feel like a 70 TSS bike.

TP works well IF, big IF, you have your zones properly set.
2015-09-01 5:21 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart

My swims include slow drills and kicking.  I just make note of how many yards the drills and kick sets are.  I think this throws off my avg pace overall even though the speed sets make me want to throw up.

2015-09-01 5:35 PM
in reply to: GAUG3

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Originally posted by GAUG3

My swims include slow drills and kicking.  I just make note of how many yards the drills and kick sets are.  I think this throws off my avg pace overall even though the speed sets make me want to throw up.




Kicking throws off my distance but average pace remains that of the non kicking stuff
Drills are just a waste of time so I don't them But seriously, I don't do them.

It doesn't have to be super accurate. A TSS per distance metric may be the best way for you.
2015-09-01 11:46 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by tzcoaching
Here's the PMC for one of my athletes who just raced as an elite amateur in Chicago Olympic distance yesterday; finished just over 2 hours.


thanks for posting that. Makes total sense now.
You had him peak in load the week before the race, had a huge negative TSB and brought him closer back to 0 by race day.

I guess it's the perfect example of the TSB on it's own meaning nothing.
It would be really hard to do that wit someone with a bigger load (say training for an IM), that would hit his biggest week sooner than the week before a race.

Will your athlete peak again in terms of ATL the week before Chicago ?

The other thing is a CTL of 90 for an elite athlete is not that high, so while his TSB seems low he is not run down. One pro IM athlete who showed his PMC had a CTL of 180. Try going into an IM race with a TSB of 0 when you hit 180 a few weeks before :-)




Yep correct, small build up the next couple of weeks but with a peak about a week before the race. Then that last week of tapering and then then big race!

You're correct a pro athlete and elites have crazy high CTLs, but they also train 20 - 30 hours a week! This guy is racing as an elite amateur age grouper (finished top 3 overall at Chicago and win's most other races) with 11 hours a week. So volume is low but it's always been focused on super high intensity, but it still keeps the TSB lower compared to other elites.

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