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Training Like a Swimmer (Page 2)
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 2015-09-24 9:38 AM in reply to: 3mar |
 1502   Katy, Texas |  Subject: RE: Training Like a SwimmerWhat sort of resources are there for a DIY guy to utilize to try to build some of these techniques in? I have never seen a workout that includes 50x25m dolphin kicks, or anything even close. The best I do is come up with various freestyle workouts which are just mixes of sets of 25's up to 200's. The masters team I swim with has workouts listed everyday, but everyone does their own thing for the most part (except when I can con someone into doing the main set with me...I've been getting fewer and fewer volunteers) and the workouts are pretty much "traditional". |
| 2015-09-24 10:06 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Member 1748  Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by 3mar What sort of resources are there for a DIY guy to utilize to try to build some of these techniques in? I have never seen a workout that includes 50x25m dolphin kicks, or anything even close. The best I do is come up with various freestyle workouts which are just mixes of sets of 25's up to 200's. The masters team I swim with has workouts listed everyday, but everyone does their own thing for the most part (except when I can con someone into doing the main set with me...I've been getting fewer and fewer volunteers) and the workouts are pretty much "traditional". Maybe find a local swim team coach, ask him to give you workouts or better yet see if you can workout with a local team. |
| 2015-09-24 10:35 AM in reply to: 3mar |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer I'm pretty plain vanilla when it comes to workouts these days. I do something similar to you with some variation of the same sets each workout. I incorporate drills into each session during each "rest". So if I just finished a set of 100's I'll grab a kb and kick for 200 yds. After next set of say 50's I'll do a 200 one arm pull rotating sides. After next set 200 yds dolphin kick alternating with odd lap on back. You can also checkout the website "theraceclub" which is Gary Hall Sr's . There's a bunch of videos on there and a number of them have drills. I believe there's one dedicated to UDK. |
| 2015-09-24 10:50 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer My answer was to your question about how to improve your swimming. However as a triathlete; I have to put this out there. From your previous posts it sounds like you are already FOP on the swim? SO maybe you should be spending most of your time on the bike where it's going to make a difference? |
| 2015-09-24 10:55 AM in reply to: mike761 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by mike761 My answer was to your question about how to improve your swimming. However as a triathlete; I have to put this out there. From your previous posts it sounds like you are already FOP on the swim? SO maybe you should be spending most of your time on the bike where it's going to make a difference? I agree with that, but I do want to break out of a funk in the pool (for the time I spend there...about 10k per week) and am looking for something to switch it up. |
| 2015-09-24 11:56 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| 216 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by Hot Runner *NOBODY swam just freestyle. You were expected to have a "stroke" that you would focus on for the stroke sets, and that you would swim on one of the relay teams. Probably 30-40% of most workouts was "stroke". I was mainly a distance swimmer, but I trained and competed for the 100 and 200 fly, and swam them in meets--the 100 mostly on the B or C relay and the 200 in bigger meets, since even some of the sprint girls had trouble finishing it. (Believe me, more suffering than the 1500m.) I have no doubt that all those years of fly (starting at 10 on a youth team) helped build my core and upper body strength as well as my lung capacity and mental toughness... After a year of training for freestyle exclusively, I've recently added fly sets to my workout routine for the all reasons you cite. For example, this morning I did 26 25's fly on :37 with a target time of :17. I may do a 50 fly race here or there, but I'm doing it mostly to improve my freestyle. Already I'm feeling much more power on my UDKs off the wall on freestyle....and I didn't have to devote any precious pool time to UDK-specific sets. Originally posted by 3mar What sort of resources are there for a DIY guy to utilize to try to build some of these techniques in? Are you a member of United States Masters Swimming? If so, you have access to a variety of workouts in the forum section of their website. The "High Intensity" Sub-forum might have what you're looking for. |
| 2015-09-24 12:03 PM in reply to: gary p |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by gary p For example, this morning I did 26 25's fly on :37 with a target time of :17. . How do you lift yourself out of the pool after that set? My lord. Originally posted by gary p Are you a member of United States Masters Swimming? If so, you have access to a variety of workouts in the forum section of their website. The "High Intensity" Sub-forum might have what you're looking for. I am. I didn't know such a forum existed. I'm going to check it out. |
| 2015-09-24 12:16 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 216 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by 3mar Well, I've been doing similar sets for freestyle for the last year so I have a level of general conditioning that's conducive to this type of work. And I take an extra one minute break when I miss a target time (today, after intervals 16 and 22). I stop when I miss the target time 3 times total or twice consecutively. ( That keeps me from going too deep into overload, allowing for a reasonably quick recovery for the next set or the next day). I started at the beginning of the month with a target time of :18 on a :40 interval. Was at "3 misses" by interval 13. Have built it up from there. Originally posted by gary p For example, this morning I did 26 25's fly on :37 with a target time of :17. . How do you lift yourself out of the pool after that set? My lord. Edited by gary p 2015-09-24 12:18 PM |
| 2015-09-24 12:22 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano I'm pretty plain vanilla when it comes to workouts these days. I do something similar to you with some variation of the same sets each workout. I incorporate drills into each session during each "rest". So if I just finished a set of 100's I'll grab a kb and kick for 200 yds. After next set of say 50's I'll do a 200 one arm pull rotating sides. After next set 200 yds dolphin kick alternating with odd lap on back. You can also checkout the website "theraceclub" which is Gary Hall Sr's . There's a bunch of videos on there and a number of them have drills. I believe there's one dedicated to UDK. Well that's the dude! That's the guy I see in the pool coaching one on one with the elite swimmers. I swim at a pool/masters club in Key Largo, but if I can't make the morning practice, I'll sometimes go to another pool in Islamorada with my wife when my kids get their lessons later in the day and he's always there. That's where this whole thread started. Maybe I should look into a couple of one-on-one sessions. Jon Olson (another ex Olympic swimmer) runs the masters club there, but his workouts are also geared towards masters swimming and tend to be traditional. I go there and swim with them every once in a while as Jon's input on stroke mechanics are always awesome. I'm sure if I asked him he'd give me some workouts. I always feel like I'm cheating on my masters group when I go there though.  P.S. Gary swam in our pool last week during our masters group. He's still FAST. Edited by 3mar 2015-09-24 12:23 PM |
| 2015-09-24 1:37 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by 3mar I realize I'm a bit out of the loop/antiquated when it comes to swimming in two ways; one is that I had an 18 year break after high school, and second is that I never swam at any reasonable level (college or otherwise). When I come across a legit swimmer here and there, the way they train looks really foreign to me. I'm used to just grinding out laps in front crawl, and maybe some kick sets and drills. When I have seen a legit or collegiate swimmer train, I've noticed a couple of things: - The number one thing is they seem really "explosive". They seem to do a lot of work putting a lot of explosive energy off the wall, especially for back and butterfly, but freestyle also. - A lot of dolphin kicking and underwater work (see above...really high energy). A lot with flippers. - I don't see a lot of drills - Actual straight swimming seems almost limited, maybe to a main set Now, these are REALLY limited observations as I've only had a chance to see swimmers like that train a couple of times, mostly when we have a lot of collegiate swimmers in the pool over the winter when they come down for a couple of weeks for a meet here. My question is two fold: 1. How do real swimmers train? I realize my observations are really limited, but what I come away with is that they train totally different than me, or anything I've seen. Is it just that I'm happening to see men/women who are non-freestyle swimmers and that's why it looks odd? 2. Is there any benefit to training in this way? Or is it better to just do the standard; warm up-kick-drill-main set-cool down, with focus on the stroke and breathing itself? This may be completely off, but I just know what I see them doing and what I'm doing are two totally different things.
A little late to the party but I actually wrote something on this for a mag. Here's the link of it on my blog. http://badig.com/2015/09/why-we-train-swimming-different/ Also, Let me use myself as a great example as to why you should swim all the strokes in workout. I took some time off swimming and was just running and riding. started developing a leg issue which became a hip issue. to the point that I had to take 3 weeks off of running. went to a pt and he said that my hips had shifted out of place. He had me lay on my back with knees up (feet on table). He spread my knees apart and told me to squeeze them back together with force. I did and there was a nice popping then crunching noise. kinda hurt. He then said, you're done. Hips shifted back in place. Pain went away after a few times running. Had I just been doing a little breastroke swimming, I never would have had this problem. anyway, off topic, but worth telling....
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| 2015-09-24 1:38 PM in reply to: 3mar |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Who did you see in the water , Jr or Sr ? Either way that's very cool. Every now and then I pick through the videos on their website. |
| 2015-09-24 1:41 PM in reply to: H2OhNo |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Going to disagree with you on this. LB is right straight swims are less than optimal training. 200s are usually my long intervals and I do lots of 50s, 75s and 100s. I am consistently top 10 in the world in the 800m and 1500m in my masters AG. I also swim 400 Fr, 400 IM and 200 Fly. Originally posted by H2OhNo Originally posted by 3mar I don't do really any continuous swims. 500 meters max as a warm up, but that's it under normal circumstances. When I'm with my masters group, I'll normally do the workout listed which is the standard type (or at least that I'm used to) with a warm up, then some kicking, then either drills or IM, a main set then a cool down. When I'm on my own, I tend to do more freestyle and a lot of 50's and 100's fast. When I see legit swimmers train, which is sometimes one on one with a coach if I go to the pool later in the day, they do a lot of what was mentioned here. A lot of explosive, high speed work. They seem to be out of the pool as much as in. I saw one girl where it was like they had (what sounded like) a fishing reel that she was pulling against while swimming about 20 yards off the wall until stopping. In the water it seemed like she was submerged half the time and a lot of very explosive, very high energy stuff. Quite frankly, it looked like a lot more fun than what I was doing. When people say how a triathlon can be won or lost in transition... Well, elite swimming is won and lost on starts and turns. Shaving hundreds and tenths of a second off your starts, turns and underwater kicks before you begin the stroke are absolute must haves for swimmers. And getting up to speed as quickly as possible. That is possibly the stuff that you are likely seeing them train for that is not in your regimen. And unless you plan to do an indoor tri, the stuff they are working on is not valuable to you. But if it looks like fun, go ahead and do it! 70-80% of my swimming is continuous laps at 600 yards and more, often with a pull buoy. But I throw in the occasional 100 yard butterfly, breast or back sprint. It doesn't do a whole lot to help me train for a one mile distance swim, but it's fun and breaks up the monotony. |
| 2015-09-24 2:35 PM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Who did you see in the water , Jr or Sr ? Either way that's very cool. Every now and then I pick through the videos on their website. Senior |
| 2015-09-24 2:54 PM in reply to: tjfry |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by 3mar I realize I'm a bit out of the loop/antiquated when it comes to swimming in two ways; one is that I had an 18 year break after high school, and second is that I never swam at any reasonable level (college or otherwise). When I come across a legit swimmer here and there, the way they train looks really foreign to me. I'm used to just grinding out laps in front crawl, and maybe some kick sets and drills. When I have seen a legit or collegiate swimmer train, I've noticed a couple of things: - The number one thing is they seem really "explosive". They seem to do a lot of work putting a lot of explosive energy off the wall, especially for back and butterfly, but freestyle also. - A lot of dolphin kicking and underwater work (see above...really high energy). A lot with flippers. - I don't see a lot of drills - Actual straight swimming seems almost limited, maybe to a main set Now, these are REALLY limited observations as I've only had a chance to see swimmers like that train a couple of times, mostly when we have a lot of collegiate swimmers in the pool over the winter when they come down for a couple of weeks for a meet here. My question is two fold: 1. How do real swimmers train? I realize my observations are really limited, but what I come away with is that they train totally different than me, or anything I've seen. Is it just that I'm happening to see men/women who are non-freestyle swimmers and that's why it looks odd? 2. Is there any benefit to training in this way? Or is it better to just do the standard; warm up-kick-drill-main set-cool down, with focus on the stroke and breathing itself? This may be completely off, but I just know what I see them doing and what I'm doing are two totally different things. Â A little late to the party but I actually wrote something on this for a mag. Here's the link of it on my blog. http://badig.com/2015/09/why-we-train-swimming-different/ Also, Let me use myself as a great example as to why you should swim all the strokes in workout. I took some time off swimming and was just running and riding. started developing a leg issue which became a hip issue. to the point that I had to take 3 weeks off of running. went to a pt and he said that my hips had shifted out of place. He had me lay on my back with knees up (feet on table). He spread my knees apart and told me to squeeze them back together with force. I did and there was a nice popping then crunching noise. kinda hurt. He then said, you're done. Hips shifted back in place. Pain went away after a few times running. Had I just been doing a little breastroke swimming, I never would have had this problem. anyway, off topic, but worth telling.... Â Â First, good article. Second, I think I realize that my original post may not have been clear. When I said "straight swimming" I didn't mean going in the pool and swimming 1,000 meters without breaks, I meant straight freestyle sets. I never see these folks do 20x100 or anything like that. It could very well be that the portion I happen to see is work on technique only and the actual big sets are done separately. It just seems like they're doing something different every 10 minutes. I very rarely do straight long swims without breaks. That's just now how I learned, but I never really questioned why (but your article makes sense). I've done two straight swims of over 1,000 meters in the past year. One was a 1,500 meter time trial and the other was one 3,850 meter swim a couple of weeks before the IM. I just wanted to do it once for my own confidence since I never swam over 1,500 meters at one time. Contrary to your article though, my pace sped up the whole time. I started at 1:30ish/100m and ended closer to 1:20/100m. But I was swimming conservatively and sped up because I got bored. (Capture.JPG) Attachments ---------------- Capture.JPG (37KB - 1 downloads) |
| 2015-09-24 3:29 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by tjfry First, good article. Second, I think I realize that my original post may not have been clear. When I said "straight swimming" I didn't mean going in the pool and swimming 1,000 meters without breaks, I meant straight freestyle sets. I never see these folks do 20x100 or anything like that. It could very well be that the portion I happen to see is work on technique only and the actual big sets are done separately. It just seems like they're doing something different every 10 minutes. I very rarely do straight long swims without breaks. That's just now how I learned, but I never really questioned why (but your article makes sense). I've done two straight swims of over 1,000 meters in the past year. One was a 1,500 meter time trial and the other was one 3,850 meter swim a couple of weeks before the IM. I just wanted to do it once for my own confidence since I never swam over 1,500 meters at one time. Contrary to your article though, my pace sped up the whole time. I started at 1:30ish/100m and ended closer to 1:20/100m. But I was swimming conservatively and sped up because I got bored. Originally posted by 3mar I realize I'm a bit out of the loop/antiquated when it comes to swimming in two ways; one is that I had an 18 year break after high school, and second is that I never swam at any reasonable level (college or otherwise). When I come across a legit swimmer here and there, the way they train looks really foreign to me. I'm used to just grinding out laps in front crawl, and maybe some kick sets and drills. When I have seen a legit or collegiate swimmer train, I've noticed a couple of things: - The number one thing is they seem really "explosive". They seem to do a lot of work putting a lot of explosive energy off the wall, especially for back and butterfly, but freestyle also. - A lot of dolphin kicking and underwater work (see above...really high energy). A lot with flippers. - I don't see a lot of drills - Actual straight swimming seems almost limited, maybe to a main set Now, these are REALLY limited observations as I've only had a chance to see swimmers like that train a couple of times, mostly when we have a lot of collegiate swimmers in the pool over the winter when they come down for a couple of weeks for a meet here. My question is two fold: 1. How do real swimmers train? I realize my observations are really limited, but what I come away with is that they train totally different than me, or anything I've seen. Is it just that I'm happening to see men/women who are non-freestyle swimmers and that's why it looks odd? 2. Is there any benefit to training in this way? Or is it better to just do the standard; warm up-kick-drill-main set-cool down, with focus on the stroke and breathing itself? This may be completely off, but I just know what I see them doing and what I'm doing are two totally different things.
A little late to the party but I actually wrote something on this for a mag. Here's the link of it on my blog. http://badig.com/2015/09/why-we-train-swimming-different/ Also, Let me use myself as a great example as to why you should swim all the strokes in workout. I took some time off swimming and was just running and riding. started developing a leg issue which became a hip issue. to the point that I had to take 3 weeks off of running. went to a pt and he said that my hips had shifted out of place. He had me lay on my back with knees up (feet on table). He spread my knees apart and told me to squeeze them back together with force. I did and there was a nice popping then crunching noise. kinda hurt. He then said, you're done. Hips shifted back in place. Pain went away after a few times running. Had I just been doing a little breastroke swimming, I never would have had this problem. anyway, off topic, but worth telling....
I was referring more to higher end efforts. Warm up/easy swims and conservative swimming didn't factor. |
| 2015-09-24 3:35 PM in reply to: tjfry |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by tjfry Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by tjfry First, good article. Second, I think I realize that my original post may not have been clear. When I said "straight swimming" I didn't mean going in the pool and swimming 1,000 meters without breaks, I meant straight freestyle sets. I never see these folks do 20x100 or anything like that. It could very well be that the portion I happen to see is work on technique only and the actual big sets are done separately. It just seems like they're doing something different every 10 minutes. I very rarely do straight long swims without breaks. That's just now how I learned, but I never really questioned why (but your article makes sense). I've done two straight swims of over 1,000 meters in the past year. One was a 1,500 meter time trial and the other was one 3,850 meter swim a couple of weeks before the IM. I just wanted to do it once for my own confidence since I never swam over 1,500 meters at one time. Contrary to your article though, my pace sped up the whole time. I started at 1:30ish/100m and ended closer to 1:20/100m. But I was swimming conservatively and sped up because I got bored. Originally posted by 3mar I realize I'm a bit out of the loop/antiquated when it comes to swimming in two ways; one is that I had an 18 year break after high school, and second is that I never swam at any reasonable level (college or otherwise). When I come across a legit swimmer here and there, the way they train looks really foreign to me. I'm used to just grinding out laps in front crawl, and maybe some kick sets and drills. When I have seen a legit or collegiate swimmer train, I've noticed a couple of things: - The number one thing is they seem really "explosive". They seem to do a lot of work putting a lot of explosive energy off the wall, especially for back and butterfly, but freestyle also. - A lot of dolphin kicking and underwater work (see above...really high energy). A lot with flippers. - I don't see a lot of drills - Actual straight swimming seems almost limited, maybe to a main set Now, these are REALLY limited observations as I've only had a chance to see swimmers like that train a couple of times, mostly when we have a lot of collegiate swimmers in the pool over the winter when they come down for a couple of weeks for a meet here. My question is two fold: 1. How do real swimmers train? I realize my observations are really limited, but what I come away with is that they train totally different than me, or anything I've seen. Is it just that I'm happening to see men/women who are non-freestyle swimmers and that's why it looks odd? 2. Is there any benefit to training in this way? Or is it better to just do the standard; warm up-kick-drill-main set-cool down, with focus on the stroke and breathing itself? This may be completely off, but I just know what I see them doing and what I'm doing are two totally different things. Â A little late to the party but I actually wrote something on this for a mag. Here's the link of it on my blog. http://badig.com/2015/09/why-we-train-swimming-different/ Also, Let me use myself as a great example as to why you should swim all the strokes in workout. I took some time off swimming and was just running and riding. started developing a leg issue which became a hip issue. to the point that I had to take 3 weeks off of running. went to a pt and he said that my hips had shifted out of place. He had me lay on my back with knees up (feet on table). He spread my knees apart and told me to squeeze them back together with force. I did and there was a nice popping then crunching noise. kinda hurt. He then said, you're done. Hips shifted back in place. Pain went away after a few times running. Had I just been doing a little breastroke swimming, I never would have had this problem. anyway, off topic, but worth telling.... Â Â I was referring more to higher end efforts. Warm up/easy swims and conservative swimming didn't factor. That's what I figured. By the way, I am moving to Houston next month (you're in the Woodlands, right?). Any good swim clubs/teams on the west side of the city (Katy area) that you would recommend? |
| 2015-09-24 4:48 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by 3mar That's what I figured. By the way, I am moving to Houston next month (you're in the Woodlands, right?). Any good swim clubs/teams on the west side of the city (Katy area) that you would recommend? look at Magnolia masters edit : oops. i thought you were moving to the woodlands Edited by marcag 2015-09-24 4:51 PM |
| 2015-09-24 4:56 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by 3mar That's what I figured. By the way, I am moving to Houston next month (you're in the Woodlands, right?). Any good swim clubs/teams on the west side of the city (Katy area) that you would recommend? look at Magnolia masters edit : oops. i thought you were moving to the woodlands Never a bad thing to check with Tim or TJ for swimming. |
| 2015-09-24 7:50 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 82 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by H2OhNo Originally posted by 3mar I don't do really any continuous swims. 500 meters max as a warm up, but that's it under normal circumstances. When I'm with my masters group, I'll normally do the workout listed which is the standard type (or at least that I'm used to) with a warm up, then some kicking, then either drills or IM, a main set then a cool down. When I'm on my own, I tend to do more freestyle and a lot of 50's and 100's fast. When I see legit swimmers train, which is sometimes one on one with a coach if I go to the pool later in the day, they do a lot of what was mentioned here. A lot of explosive, high speed work. They seem to be out of the pool as much as in. I saw one girl where it was like they had (what sounded like) a fishing reel that she was pulling against while swimming about 20 yards off the wall until stopping. In the water it seemed like she was submerged half the time and a lot of very explosive, very high energy stuff. Quite frankly, it looked like a lot more fun than what I was doing. When people say how a triathlon can be won or lost in transition... Well, elite swimming is won and lost on starts and turns. Shaving hundreds and tenths of a second off your starts, turns and underwater kicks before you begin the stroke are absolute must haves for swimmers. And getting up to speed as quickly as possible. That is possibly the stuff that you are likely seeing them train for that is not in your regimen. And unless you plan to do an indoor tri, the stuff they are working on is not valuable to you. But if it looks like fun, go ahead and do it! 70-80% of my swimming is continuous laps at 600 yards and more, often with a pull buoy. But I throw in the occasional 100 yard butterfly, breast or back sprint. It doesn't do a whole lot to help me train for a one mile distance swim, but it's fun and breaks up the monotony. I couldn't disagree more with that statement. While it's true that most triathletes just don't put in the volume and time because of their own time constraints, it's patently false to say that kind of swimming won't help you in a triathlon....especially during a swim focus. We can argue about it, but then I can show you what some of the very fastest swimmers (and also at the very top overall) at AG sprint nationals do for training (hint, they are al club swimmers). Triathlon swimming is not some kind of special swimming. Fast swimming is fast swimming. Training to swim fast is training to swim fast I'm not sure sure you understood what I was saying, or maybe I wasn't very clear. I wasn't there,but it sounds like the people he observed "may have" been doing specific exercises to train your legs to explode off the starting platform or wall for powe full starts and turns Moves you won't use in an outdoor triathlon. Don't get me wrong, there's something to the idea that any training is good training, but specifically targeting exploding off a platform or wall does not help in long distance open water swimming. |
| 2015-09-24 8:02 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 82 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer [ Originally posted by H2OhNo Originally posted by 3mar I don't do really any continuous swims. 500 meters max as a warm up, but that's it under normal circumstances. When I'm with my masters group, I'll normally do the workout listed which is the standard type (or at least that I'm used to) with a warm up, then some kicking, then either drills or IM, a main set then a cool down. When I'm on my own, I tend to do more freestyle and a lot of 50's and 100's fast. When I see legit swimmers train, which is sometimes one on one with a coach if I go to the pool later in the day, they do a lot of what was mentioned here. A lot of explosive, high speed work. They seem to be out of the pool as much as in. I saw one girl where it was like they had (what sounded like) a fishing reel that she was pulling against while swimming about 20 yards off the wall until stopping. In the water it seemed like she was submerged half the time and a lot of very explosive, very high energy stuff. Quite frankly, it looked like a lot more fun than what I was doing. When people say how a triathlon can be won or lost in transition... Well, elite swimming is won and lost on starts and turns. Shaving hundreds and tenths of a second off your starts, turns and underwater kicks before you begin the stroke are absolute must haves for swimmers. And getting up to speed as quickly as possible. That is possibly the stuff that you are likely seeing them train for that is not in your regimen. And unless you plan to do an indoor tri, the stuff they are working on is not valuable to you. But if it looks like fun, go ahead and do it! 70-80% of my swimming is continuous laps at 600 yards and more, often with a pull buoy. But I throw in the occasional 100 yard butterfly, breast or back sprint. It doesn't do a whole lot to help me train for a one mile distance swim, but it's fun and breaks up the monotony. Originally posted by simpsonbo Going to disagree with you on this. LB is right straight swims are less than optimal training. 200s are usually my long intervals and I do lots of 50s, 75s and 100s. I am consistently top 10 in the world in the 800m and 1500m in my masters AG. I also swim 400 Fr, 400 IM and 200 Fly Again - I want to clarify. I'm not selling myself as an elite swimmer, or coach, I'm also not saying continuous swim is better than intervals (not the least bit true). The drills I was picturing in my head sounded like platform start and wall push off workouts, which are not really helpful in open water swimming. That may not have been what they were working on at all, I don't know, I wasn't there. But as I also said - if it looks like fun, do it. When I was on the swim team we did a lot of work on starts and turns, because it can make or break your race, due to the fact 20-30% of your race time is spent starting, gliding and turning. I would not recommend that kind of workout to open water swimmers unless they wanted to shake up the boredom. Just my two cents, not trying to overstep any bounds here. Edited by H2OhNo 2015-09-24 8:15 PM |
| 2015-09-24 10:29 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by H2OhNo [ Originally posted by H2OhNo Originally posted by 3mar I don't do really any continuous swims. 500 meters max as a warm up, but that's it under normal circumstances. When I'm with my masters group, I'll normally do the workout listed which is the standard type (or at least that I'm used to) with a warm up, then some kicking, then either drills or IM, a main set then a cool down. When I'm on my own, I tend to do more freestyle and a lot of 50's and 100's fast. When I see legit swimmers train, which is sometimes one on one with a coach if I go to the pool later in the day, they do a lot of what was mentioned here. A lot of explosive, high speed work. They seem to be out of the pool as much as in. I saw one girl where it was like they had (what sounded like) a fishing reel that she was pulling against while swimming about 20 yards off the wall until stopping. In the water it seemed like she was submerged half the time and a lot of very explosive, very high energy stuff. Quite frankly, it looked like a lot more fun than what I was doing. When people say how a triathlon can be won or lost in transition... Well, elite swimming is won and lost on starts and turns. Shaving hundreds and tenths of a second off your starts, turns and underwater kicks before you begin the stroke are absolute must haves for swimmers. And getting up to speed as quickly as possible. That is possibly the stuff that you are likely seeing them train for that is not in your regimen. And unless you plan to do an indoor tri, the stuff they are working on is not valuable to you. But if it looks like fun, go ahead and do it! 70-80% of my swimming is continuous laps at 600 yards and more, often with a pull buoy. But I throw in the occasional 100 yard butterfly, breast or back sprint. It doesn't do a whole lot to help me train for a one mile distance swim, but it's fun and breaks up the monotony. Originally posted by simpsonbo Going to disagree with you on this. LB is right straight swims are less than optimal training. 200s are usually my long intervals and I do lots of 50s, 75s and 100s. I am consistently top 10 in the world in the 800m and 1500m in my masters AG. I also swim 400 Fr, 400 IM and 200 Fly Again - I want to clarify. I'm not selling myself as an elite swimmer, or coach, I'm also not saying continuous swim is better than intervals (not the least bit true)the tr. The drills I was picturing in my head sounded like platform start and wall push off workouts, which are not really helpful in open water swimming. That may not have been what they were working on at all, I don't know, I wasn't there. But as I also said - if it looks like fun, do it. When I was on the swim team we did a lot of work on starts and turns, because it can make or break your race, due to the fact 20-30% of your race time is spent starting, gliding and turning. I would not recommend that kind of workout to open water swimmers unless they wanted to shake up the boredom. Just my two cents, not trying to overstep any bounds here.
There are not bounds to overstep so for sure don't worry about that. I think that guys like you who were swimmers take for granted what you do now.....truly. All of those things you did back on swim team brought you to where you are. All of that wall work and start work and turn work and gliding is all part of what taught you your feel for the water, your balance in the water, your ability to understand when to breath, etc. It's the meat of learning to swim well and in case you haven't been looking around......people who do triathlon, as a group, are abysmal swimmers. My point in all of this, and it has been my point in past threads of this nature, is that quite a bit of what passes for swim knowledge in the triathlon world falls on deaf ears. Most people can't even picture or fathom what the hell someone is talking about, much less feel it in the water. I think people who want to learn to swim better and faster need to first learn how to swim.....because they don't know how. All of those little things that are for sure of no benefit to you anymore could go a long way, even if only practiced a little bit, to help people learn to have that feel and balance for the water that you take for granted. It is, after all, part of why you did it way back when. Edited by Left Brain 2015-09-24 10:29 PM |
| 2015-09-24 10:30 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Wow, that turned into a formatting mess. |
| 2015-09-25 7:19 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 82 | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by Left Brain Wow, that turned into a formatting mess. All of these posts are beginning to look how I felt right around mile 3 of my first Oly. I appreciate the comments, never thought of it from that side of the fence before. Thank you for taking the time to reply and clarify. |
| 2015-09-25 8:35 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by H2OhNo [ Originally posted by H2OhNo Originally posted by 3mar I don't do really any continuous swims. 500 meters max as a warm up, but that's it under normal circumstances. When I'm with my masters group, I'll normally do the workout listed which is the standard type (or at least that I'm used to) with a warm up, then some kicking, then either drills or IM, a main set then a cool down. When I'm on my own, I tend to do more freestyle and a lot of 50's and 100's fast. When I see legit swimmers train, which is sometimes one on one with a coach if I go to the pool later in the day, they do a lot of what was mentioned here. A lot of explosive, high speed work. They seem to be out of the pool as much as in. I saw one girl where it was like they had (what sounded like) a fishing reel that she was pulling against while swimming about 20 yards off the wall until stopping. In the water it seemed like she was submerged half the time and a lot of very explosive, very high energy stuff. Quite frankly, it looked like a lot more fun than what I was doing. When people say how a triathlon can be won or lost in transition... Well, elite swimming is won and lost on starts and turns. Shaving hundreds and tenths of a second off your starts, turns and underwater kicks before you begin the stroke are absolute must haves for swimmers. And getting up to speed as quickly as possible. That is possibly the stuff that you are likely seeing them train for that is not in your regimen. And unless you plan to do an indoor tri, the stuff they are working on is not valuable to you. But if it looks like fun, go ahead and do it! 70-80% of my swimming is continuous laps at 600 yards and more, often with a pull buoy. But I throw in the occasional 100 yard butterfly, breast or back sprint. It doesn't do a whole lot to help me train for a one mile distance swim, but it's fun and breaks up the monotony. Originally posted by simpsonbo Going to disagree with you on this. LB is right straight swims are less than optimal training. 200s are usually my long intervals and I do lots of 50s, 75s and 100s. I am consistently top 10 in the world in the 800m and 1500m in my masters AG. I also swim 400 Fr, 400 IM and 200 Fly Again - I want to clarify. I'm not selling myself as an elite swimmer, or coach, I'm also not saying continuous swim is better than intervals (not the least bit true)the tr. The drills I was picturing in my head sounded like platform start and wall push off workouts, which are not really helpful in open water swimming. That may not have been what they were working on at all, I don't know, I wasn't there. But as I also said - if it looks like fun, do it. When I was on the swim team we did a lot of work on starts and turns, because it can make or break your race, due to the fact 20-30% of your race time is spent starting, gliding and turning. I would not recommend that kind of workout to open water swimmers unless they wanted to shake up the boredom. Just my two cents, not trying to overstep any bounds here.
There are not bounds to overstep so for sure don't worry about that. I think that guys like you who were swimmers take for granted what you do now.....truly. All of those things you did back on swim team brought you to where you are. All of that wall work and start work and turn work and gliding is all part of what taught you your feel for the water, your balance in the water, your ability to understand when to breath, etc. It's the meat of learning to swim well and in case you haven't been looking around......people who do triathlon, as a group, are abysmal swimmers. My point in all of this, and it has been my point in past threads of this nature, is that quite a bit of what passes for swim knowledge in the triathlon world falls on deaf ears. Most people can't even picture or fathom what the hell someone is talking about, much less feel it in the water. I think people who want to learn to swim better and faster need to first learn how to swim.....because they don't know how. All of those little things that are for sure of no benefit to you anymore could go a long way, even if only practiced a little bit, to help people learn to have that feel and balance for the water that you take for granted. It is, after all, part of why you did it way back when. x2. Pushing off hard from walls with a tight streamline is about a lot more than just fast turns in competitive pool swimming. It's also important for the reasons LB said. It's also important, because developing the technique and fitness to swim fast takes hard work. Technique and fitness are intertwined such that you can't have one without the other. Those hard efforts drive both. This is completely lost on many triathletes who want to separate the two. Fast swimmers swim fast because they swim hard AND focus on technique almost every interval. "Fast swimming is fast swimming." - LB
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| 2015-09-25 10:33 AM in reply to: 3mar |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Training Like a Swimmer I think I figured out a couple of things. One is that the one-on-one coaching I was seeing is surprisingly expensive, so that would be why there is no time spent doing sets. If you're paying over $200 for an hour of someone's time, you're most definitely not going to spend 40 minutes doing 100 repeats. That explains why so little time is spent just swimming and it's all drills and exercises. I couldn't get to my normal pool this morning so I ended up at the one that Jon Olsen coaches, and since I was late there was just me and a new guy that was an ex swimmer of some kind (college I'm assuming because he was going pretty darn fast for a first day back...give him a week and I'm sure he'd be faster than me) so he had us swim together. He gave us a variation of the workout he had for the masters team, and lo and behold, it had UDK, which my first attempts at were not that great. When doing it as instructed, the only way I can explain it is; it made my abs feel like they do when you throw up...like 1,000 sit ups. I can totally see the merit in that. Lastly, I think I do my sets on too slow of intervals. He was setting the pace for us and it was a lot lest rest than I would normally take. So some good takeaways overall. |
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