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Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? (Page 3)
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 2015-10-09 2:00 PM in reply to: RedCorvette |
Pro  15655    |  Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????That's all great RedCorvette.......but apparently you haven't been following this thread. Reason is out the window. LOL |
| 2015-10-09 2:04 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 7036  Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by Left Brain That's all great RedCorvette.......but apparently you haven't been following this thread. Reason is out the window. LOL Just trying to offer some facts instead of noise. Mark |
| 2015-10-09 2:05 PM in reply to: RedCorvette |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by RedCorvette ^^^This guy gets it^^^Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by dmiller5 I'm not going to debate your straw man fallacy. There's nothing wrong with forming an opinion. What's not cool is presenting your opinion as fact when it's trashing something you don't have comprehensive knowledge of. Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by dmiller5 So, I was right. You're you comparing apples to oranges. You also need to read my previous post. I'm not a TI coach, but I've been fortunate to be exposed to one of it's highest levels. I personally coach using a hybrid of techniques I've learned from multiple sources. Your limited perspective seems to be coloring your opinion. Just because you haven't swam with them doesn't mean they don't exist. Suzanne coaches several Kona qualifiers, and this year's female USAT long course national champion. They're all strong swimmers. Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by dmiller5 That's not true. I suspect you're comparing Tower26's complete offerings to TI's beginner program. TI's success in helping beginner AOSers learn the basics has resulted in a reputation for only that despite also coaching triathletes and OWSers at a higher level. Tower 26 > TI every time. I'm comparing technique and methods of training, and I think TI is hot garbage. I know you and some others are real into TI....but I've never swam with a TI swimmer that could swim even close to respectably.
I've watched Sheila coach in the same pool as TI coaches, made me laugh. Yes, my experience is "limited" to the coaches I've met, the videos I've seen, and the swimmers I've swum with....How would you like me to form an opinion, on the word of a coach with whom I've never practiced with? Cool that Suzanne coached some kona qualifiers, I'm sure some athletes can qualify for kona using TI swimming for the smallest portion of the race.... How many TI swimmers has she coached to USAT national championships? Draft legal races? Anything requiring FAST swimming?
Just to add some perspective, I've been extremely fortunate to have worked both with Suzanne and Sheila in the past year. Plus I've attended a couple of weekend clinics put on by Dr. Genadijus Sokolovas (aka Dr. G). I participated in a TI Academy online race-prep program that Suzanne led for several months last summer. While based on TI principles, it wasn't a beginner's program and included focus not just on SPL, but also increasing tempo and the high elbow catch. We worked on a hip-driven stroke with NO gliding (contrary to one of the common TI myths). Using that stroke I was 2nd out of the water in my AG (M60-64) at the St. Anthony's sprint tri in April going 13:59 for 750M. A PR for me at that distance. Not hyperfast, but OK for a 62 year old built more like a barge than a torpedo. Subsequently, Sheila Taormina moved here to Sarasota and since June has been coaching my masters team during the week while she still continues to travel doing weekend clinics around the country. Obviously if you're familiar with Sheila, she's all about propulsion. Lots & lots of work on the catch & pull. It's not the "effortless" hip-driven TI stroke, and it requires more physical strength. We're all doing a lot of dryland pull cord training and other exercises (press outs, etc.) to build strength. Lots of kick drills with an emphasis on developing a strong 6-beat kick (while acknowledging that you will probably shift down to a 2-beat kick for portions of a long tri swim). It's work and not everybody's cup of tea. While many aspects of what Sheila teaches are different than TI, there is also a good deal of overlap. Propulsion and drag reduction are fundamental to both philosophies, it's just that they're coming at things from opposite directions so to speak (pun intended). I have gotten significantly faster since I have been training with Sheila, but I would have to add a couple of caveats: 1. I'm swimming a lot more since I started training with Sheila. 2. There is absolutely no substitute for having a coach on deck while you're swimming. While being able to share videos online is wonderful, it is just not as effective as a live coach giving you instruction, feedback and a kick in the butt on occasion. I would also add that it is an advantage training in a group setting versus doing a workout on your own. There's always that element of competition against the person in the next lane. At the end of the day there is no "one size fits all" solution to swimming technique. No absolute right or wrong way. Eventually each individual athlete has to figure out the best way to meet their individual goals & objectives. Finally, I have to say that Suzanne and Sheila are both terrific people and I feel blessed to have gotten to know both of them. I consider them both to be friends. Different philosophies and personalities for sure, but both are passionate about the sport and do all they can to help their athletes. Mark
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| 2015-10-09 2:12 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 82 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? As someone with a little experience in both sports, the whole "TI" thing to me is not much different from the "Tilt & Stack" method of golf teaching that came out around 10 years ago. Here's my opinions. - If moving to TI (or away from TI) makes you more comfortable or happier in the water - then give it a chance.. - If getting any sort of coaching helps your improvement, and that's what you want - then do it. More coaching, more time, more effort, more focus will almost always lead to better results. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that one method is superior to another if your time spent working on said method doubled from your previous approach. Apples to apples. - Every person is unique. Every "method" and "teacher" should be able to adapt to our unique strengths and weaknesses. If you find a method or teacher that makes absolute demands that every single aspect has to be perfect and not tweaked - run the hell away. - Don't assume what works for you works for others. But also, don't treat it as though it's your secret and keep it from others. - And lastly, sometimes you just gotta dance with the date you came with. Meaning most of all, do not make any drastic changes just before any major event or race. Case in point - 8 years ago, i was running a 10 miler. Barefoot running was all the "new rage". Guy in front of me had "barefoot shoes" on. Woman next t him asked how he liked them. He said he liked them so far, but only wore them three times. This was mile two. By mile 3, he was in clear pain. By mile 4, he dropped behind me. I later learned he dropped out and his feet were covered in blood. I know it sounds so obvious to most of us to not make major changes leading up to a race but I bet it happens more than we think. Raising a seatpost a half inch. Getting a new bathing suit, goggles or even running without socks for the first time. Don't do it, even though you see it on a "list". Grow the sport, be open to new ideas. Sometimes even if you just try something for a day, week or a month, it may show you what was working in your previous training that maybe you got away from. And as far as any sort of "Top 10/20" list of dos and don'ts. They are general lists. if there is something on the list that you are completely against, than by all means follow your instincts, but also don't let that imply the rest of the list is useless. Lastly - building on LB's point about practicing all kinds of breathing patterns - I could not agree more. I practice breathing 2s and 4s on both sides. 3s and 5s too. Also 2-4-2, 2-5-2, 2-3-2, even 6-4-2 at times. I also do 25s with no breath, and underwater 25s with no breath. Train your body to not panic if you aren't getting a breath when you want it. Sooner or later you will get splashed, kicked or hit in the face and you need to know you won't drown or suffocate, and you do not need to stop and cause a traffic jam. Edited by H2OhNo 2015-10-09 2:14 PM |
| 2015-10-09 2:30 PM in reply to: H2OhNo |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by H2OhNo Lastly - building on LB's point about practicing all kinds of breathing patterns - I could not agree more. I practice breathing 2s and 4s on both sides. 3s and 5s too. Also 2-4-2, 2-5-2, 2-3-2, even 6-4-2 at times. I also do 25s with no breath, and underwater 25s with no breath. Train your body to not panic if you aren't getting a breath when you want it. Sooner or later you will get splashed, kicked or hit in the face and you need to know you won't drown or suffocate, and you do not need to stop and cause a traffic jam. I also agree that in training, working on breathing on both sides and doing sets breathing 3,5,7 train your body to need less oxygen especially in certain circumstances. But when race day comes, reducing the amount of oxygen your body is getting makes no sense. You will not be faster in an endurance event by breathing less. Learn to breath on both sides so you can deal with waves, other swimmers, balance out your stroke. But never think breathing less is to your advantage. It never is. |
| 2015-10-09 2:37 PM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by H2OhNo Lastly - building on LB's point about practicing all kinds of breathing patterns - I could not agree more. I practice breathing 2s and 4s on both sides. 3s and 5s too. Also 2-4-2, 2-5-2, 2-3-2, even 6-4-2 at times. I also do 25s with no breath, and underwater 25s with no breath. Train your body to not panic if you aren't getting a breath when you want it. Sooner or later you will get splashed, kicked or hit in the face and you need to know you won't drown or suffocate, and you do not need to stop and cause a traffic jam. I also agree that in training, working on breathing on both sides and doing sets breathing 3,5,7 train your body to need less oxygen especially in certain circumstances. But when race day comes, reducing the amount of oxygen your body is getting makes no sense. You will not be faster in an endurance event by breathing less. Learn to breath on both sides so you can deal with waves, other swimmers, balance out your stroke. But never think breathing less is to your advantage. It never is. NOBODY EVER SAID IT DID!!! lmao |
| 2015-10-09 2:53 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by H2OhNo Lastly - building on LB's point about practicing all kinds of breathing patterns - I could not agree more. I practice breathing 2s and 4s on both sides. 3s and 5s too. Also 2-4-2, 2-5-2, 2-3-2, even 6-4-2 at times. I also do 25s with no breath, and underwater 25s with no breath. Train your body to not panic if you aren't getting a breath when you want it. Sooner or later you will get splashed, kicked or hit in the face and you need to know you won't drown or suffocate, and you do not need to stop and cause a traffic jam. I also agree that in training, working on breathing on both sides and doing sets breathing 3,5,7 train your body to need less oxygen especially in certain circumstances. But when race day comes, reducing the amount of oxygen your body is getting makes no sense. You will not be faster in an endurance event by breathing less. Learn to breath on both sides so you can deal with waves, other swimmers, balance out your stroke. But never think breathing less is to your advantage. It never is. NOBODY EVER SAID IT DID!!! lmao My bad. I misunderstood. Originally posted by Left Brain I figured the fact that breathng created more drag was a pretty formed concept for anybody who wants ot call themself a swimmer. I assumed you were saying breathing had a down side. I apologize. I'll just go back to ignoring your stuff. |
| 2015-10-09 2:56 PM in reply to: marcag |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain My bad. I misunderstood. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by H2OhNo Lastly - building on LB's point about practicing all kinds of breathing patterns - I could not agree more. I practice breathing 2s and 4s on both sides. 3s and 5s too. Also 2-4-2, 2-5-2, 2-3-2, even 6-4-2 at times. I also do 25s with no breath, and underwater 25s with no breath. Train your body to not panic if you aren't getting a breath when you want it. Sooner or later you will get splashed, kicked or hit in the face and you need to know you won't drown or suffocate, and you do not need to stop and cause a traffic jam. I also agree that in training, working on breathing on both sides and doing sets breathing 3,5,7 train your body to need less oxygen especially in certain circumstances. But when race day comes, reducing the amount of oxygen your body is getting makes no sense. You will not be faster in an endurance event by breathing less. Learn to breath on both sides so you can deal with waves, other swimmers, balance out your stroke. But never think breathing less is to your advantage. It never is. NOBODY EVER SAID IT DID!!! lmao Originally posted by Left Brain I figured the fact that breathng created more drag was a pretty formed concept for anybody who wants ot call themself a swimmer. I assumed you were saying breathing had a down side. I apologize. I'll just go back to ignoring your stuff. breathing does have a downside, it creates more drag. it also has an upside, it gives you oxygen. What LB said was that the fastest way to swim a sprint 50 would be with no breaths. I think everyone has taken that to mean he suggests not breathing for an Oly tri swim. |
| 2015-10-09 3:07 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain My bad. I misunderstood. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by H2OhNo Lastly - building on LB's point about practicing all kinds of breathing patterns - I could not agree more. I practice breathing 2s and 4s on both sides. 3s and 5s too. Also 2-4-2, 2-5-2, 2-3-2, even 6-4-2 at times. I also do 25s with no breath, and underwater 25s with no breath. Train your body to not panic if you aren't getting a breath when you want it. Sooner or later you will get splashed, kicked or hit in the face and you need to know you won't drown or suffocate, and you do not need to stop and cause a traffic jam. I also agree that in training, working on breathing on both sides and doing sets breathing 3,5,7 train your body to need less oxygen especially in certain circumstances. But when race day comes, reducing the amount of oxygen your body is getting makes no sense. You will not be faster in an endurance event by breathing less. Learn to breath on both sides so you can deal with waves, other swimmers, balance out your stroke. But never think breathing less is to your advantage. It never is. NOBODY EVER SAID IT DID!!! lmao Originally posted by Left Brain I figured the fact that breathng created more drag was a pretty formed concept for anybody who wants ot call themself a swimmer. I assumed you were saying breathing had a down side. I apologize. I'll just go back to ignoring your stuff. breathing does have a downside, it creates more drag. it also has an upside, it gives you oxygen. What LB said was that the fastest way to swim a sprint 50 would be with no breaths. I think everyone has taken that to mean he suggests not breathing for an Oly tri swim. And I think anyone who thought that I was suggesting they hold their breath for an Oly swim should go take a cold shower and see if they can kick start their brain back to functioning mode. |
| 2015-10-09 3:26 PM in reply to: cwiehle0 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? I had no idea what TI swimming even was, so I youtubed it. I cannot imagine that EVER being fast. It looks like a good way to teach people to swim who don't know how, but it certainly doesn't look fast. Mind you, this is after a relatively short stint on youtube, but just looking at the mechanics, how can that be fast? I'm not bashing it, I'm honestly asking; could someone (does someone) swim like that and do sub-1:00/100yds? Or is it just for beginners? |
| 2015-10-09 3:40 PM in reply to: 3mar |
| 1731 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? |
| 2015-10-09 3:56 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by 3mar I had no idea what TI swimming even was, so I youtubed it. I cannot imagine that EVER being fast. It looks like a good way to teach people to swim who don't know how, but it certainly doesn't look fast. Mind you, this is after a relatively short stint on youtube, but just looking at the mechanics, how can that be fast? I'm not bashing it, I'm honestly asking; could someone (does someone) swim like that and do sub-1:00/100yds? Or is it just for beginners? Since I know you're a pretty solid swimmer, let me put it this way: If someone looked at you doing some drills and swimming your best technique in practice, they might ask the same question, right? First and foremost, TI is a teaching methodology, and that's were the majority of it's revenue comes from. Because of that, most of what you'll see in videos is directed at the AOS. You need to understand that beyond the basics, it's not very different from every other methodology out there: Do everything you can to reduce drag and increase propulsion. This means always working on both technique and fitness through a combination of drills and hard intervals, regardless of whether you're using TI, Finding Freestyle, Swim Smooth, Tower 26, or something else. They're all just different approaches to the same issues with the same goal. Here's one example of someone competing at a fairly high level who also happens to be a TI coach. ETA: Despite being accused of being a "huge TI fan" earlier in the thread, I've made it clear on numerous occasions that I'm a proponent of having a lot of tools in the toolbox, being proficient in the use of all those tools, and pulling out the appropriate one for the situation. IMO, every one of the methodologies has a lot to offer. At the end of the day, it's like bike fits: The specific system used isn't as relevant to the results so much as the experience and skill of the person who's helping you.
Edited by TriMyBest 2015-10-09 4:07 PM |
| 2015-10-09 5:06 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 1175 Langley, BC, 'Wet Coast' Canada | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain My bad. I misunderstood. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by H2OhNo Lastly - building on LB's point about practicing all kinds of breathing patterns - I could not agree more. I practice breathing 2s and 4s on both sides. 3s and 5s too. Also 2-4-2, 2-5-2, 2-3-2, even 6-4-2 at times. I also do 25s with no breath, and underwater 25s with no breath. Train your body to not panic if you aren't getting a breath when you want it. Sooner or later you will get splashed, kicked or hit in the face and you need to know you won't drown or suffocate, and you do not need to stop and cause a traffic jam. I also agree that in training, working on breathing on both sides and doing sets breathing 3,5,7 train your body to need less oxygen especially in certain circumstances. But when race day comes, reducing the amount of oxygen your body is getting makes no sense. You will not be faster in an endurance event by breathing less. Learn to breath on both sides so you can deal with waves, other swimmers, balance out your stroke. But never think breathing less is to your advantage. It never is. NOBODY EVER SAID IT DID!!! lmao Originally posted by Left Brain I figured the fact that breathng created more drag was a pretty formed concept for anybody who wants ot call themself a swimmer. I assumed you were saying breathing had a down side. I apologize. I'll just go back to ignoring your stuff. breathing does have a downside, it creates more drag. it also has an upside, it gives you oxygen. What LB said was that the fastest way to swim a sprint 50 would be with no breaths. I think everyone has taken that to mean he suggests not breathing for an Oly tri swim. And I think anyone who thought that I was suggesting they hold their breath for an Oly swim should go take a cold shower and see if they can kick start their brain back to functioning mode. LB Is this cold shower with, or without, breathing ?  |
| 2015-10-09 5:35 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by 3mar I had no idea what TI swimming even was, so I youtubed it. I cannot imagine that EVER being fast. It looks like a good way to teach people to swim who don't know how, but it certainly doesn't look fast. Mind you, this is after a relatively short stint on youtube, but just looking at the mechanics, how can that be fast? I'm not bashing it, I'm honestly asking; could someone (does someone) swim like that and do sub-1:00/100yds? Or is it just for beginners? Since I know you're a pretty solid swimmer, let me put it this way: If someone looked at you doing some drills and swimming your best technique in practice, they might ask the same question, right? First and foremost, TI is a teaching methodology, and that's were the majority of it's revenue comes from. Because of that, most of what you'll see in videos is directed at the AOS. You need to understand that beyond the basics, it's not very different from every other methodology out there: Do everything you can to reduce drag and increase propulsion. This means always working on both technique and fitness through a combination of drills and hard intervals, regardless of whether you're using TI, Finding Freestyle, Swim Smooth, Tower 26, or something else. They're all just different approaches to the same issues with the same goal. Here's one example of someone competing at a fairly high level who also happens to be a TI coach. ETA: Despite being accused of being a "huge TI fan" earlier in the thread, I've made it clear on numerous occasions that I'm a proponent of having a lot of tools in the toolbox, being proficient in the use of all those tools, and pulling out the appropriate one for the situation. IMO, every one of the methodologies has a lot to offer. At the end of the day, it's like bike fits: The specific system used isn't as relevant to the results so much as the experience and skill of the person who's helping you.
It sort of looks almost like a drill to me. I could see it being a learning tool, but from what I see, it doesn't look like something you could do and go fast. I'm not harping on it. If it's a good teaching tool, then awesome. That's kind of what I thought it was. There seems to be an awful lot of gliding. But maybe that's just because it was being demonstrated. |
| 2015-10-09 7:41 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by 3mar The gliding is because the stroke is slowed down as part of the beginner learning process. In ows races, turnover is usually increased to deal with chop, other swimmers, etc, but with all athletes, they play with different stroke rates to zero in on what's fastest for the individual. In Suzanne's case, she will frequently use a tempo trainer to help push a faster turnover for a faster pace. This is done in conjunction with monitoring SPL to know when mechanics begin breaking down aND pace slows. When that begins, they've reached the athlete's current technique/fitness limit.Originally posted by TriMyBest It sort of looks almost like a drill to me. I could see it being a learning tool, but from what I see, it doesn't look like something you could do and go fast. I'm not harping on it. If it's a good teaching tool, then awesome. That's kind of what I thought it was. There seems to be an awful lot of gliding. But maybe that's just because it was being demonstrated.Originally posted by 3mar I had no idea what TI swimming even was, so I youtubed it. I cannot imagine that EVER being fast. It looks like a good way to teach people to swim who don't know how, but it certainly doesn't look fast. Mind you, this is after a relatively short stint on youtube, but just looking at the mechanics, how can that be fast? I'm not bashing it, I'm honestly asking; could someone (does someone) swim like that and do sub-1:00/100yds? Or is it just for beginners? Since I know you're a pretty solid swimmer, let me put it this way: If someone looked at you doing some drills and swimming your best technique in practice, they might ask the same question, right? First and foremost, TI is a teaching methodology, and that's were the majority of it's revenue comes from. Because of that, most of what you'll see in videos is directed at the AOS. You need to understand that beyond the basics, it's not very different from every other methodology out there: Do everything you can to reduce drag and increase propulsion. This means always working on both technique and fitness through a combination of drills and hard intervals, regardless of whether you're using TI, Finding Freestyle, Swim Smooth, Tower 26, or something else. They're all just different approaches to the same issues with the same goal. Here's one example of someone competing at a fairly high level who also happens to be a TI coach. ETA: Despite being accused of being a "huge TI fan" earlier in the thread, I've made it clear on numerous occasions that I'm a proponent of having a lot of tools in the toolbox, being proficient in the use of all those tools, and pulling out the appropriate one for the situation. IMO, every one of the methodologies has a lot to offer. At the end of the day, it's like bike fits: The specific system used isn't as relevant to the results so much as the experience and skill of the person who's helping you.
Edited by TriMyBest 2015-10-09 7:42 PM |
| 2015-10-09 8:03 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by 3mar The gliding is because the stroke is slowed down as part of the beginner learning process. In ows races, turnover is usually increased to deal with chop, other swimmers, etc, but with all athletes, they play with different stroke rates to zero in on what's fastest for the individual. In Suzanne's case, she will frequently use a tempo trainer to help push a faster turnover for a faster pace. This is done in conjunction with monitoring SPL to know when mechanics begin breaking down aND pace slows. When that begins, they've reached the athlete's current technique/fitness limit. Originally posted by TriMyBest It sort of looks almost like a drill to me. I could see it being a learning tool, but from what I see, it doesn't look like something you could do and go fast. I'm not harping on it. If it's a good teaching tool, then awesome. That's kind of what I thought it was. There seems to be an awful lot of gliding. But maybe that's just because it was being demonstrated.Originally posted by 3mar I had no idea what TI swimming even was, so I youtubed it. I cannot imagine that EVER being fast. It looks like a good way to teach people to swim who don't know how, but it certainly doesn't look fast. Mind you, this is after a relatively short stint on youtube, but just looking at the mechanics, how can that be fast? I'm not bashing it, I'm honestly asking; could someone (does someone) swim like that and do sub-1:00/100yds? Or is it just for beginners? Since I know you're a pretty solid swimmer, let me put it this way: If someone looked at you doing some drills and swimming your best technique in practice, they might ask the same question, right? First and foremost, TI is a teaching methodology, and that's were the majority of it's revenue comes from. Because of that, most of what you'll see in videos is directed at the AOS. You need to understand that beyond the basics, it's not very different from every other methodology out there: Do everything you can to reduce drag and increase propulsion. This means always working on both technique and fitness through a combination of drills and hard intervals, regardless of whether you're using TI, Finding Freestyle, Swim Smooth, Tower 26, or something else. They're all just different approaches to the same issues with the same goal. Here's one example of someone competing at a fairly high level who also happens to be a TI coach. ETA: Despite being accused of being a "huge TI fan" earlier in the thread, I've made it clear on numerous occasions that I'm a proponent of having a lot of tools in the toolbox, being proficient in the use of all those tools, and pulling out the appropriate one for the situation. IMO, every one of the methodologies has a lot to offer. At the end of the day, it's like bike fits: The specific system used isn't as relevant to the results so much as the experience and skill of the person who's helping you.
Exactly. A key to getting faster is finding the threshold tempo where your stroke mechanics start to break down. I'm usually guilty of not finishing my pull and trying to muscle my way through by starting my recovery too soon - that creates a huge amount of drag and slows you down even more. You always have to maintain your stroke mechanics. It's the old "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" scenario. Mark |
| 2015-10-09 9:02 PM in reply to: 0 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Since when is a national championship result required in order to validate a coaching system? But since someone asked how many national champions have I coached, the answer is two national champions...one of whom is also a current world champion as well as a TI Coach herself. Kirsten Sass has won five overall national champions this year in sprint, olympic, long course triathlon, as well as duathlon and aquathon. Press release from 10 days ago: http://www.usatriathlon.org/news/articles/2015/9/093015-long-course... She also won the overall age group Olympic ITU race in Chicago this year. Don't misread that...she is the current non-pro world champion in Olympic Distance, not just for her age group. Heres an interview with her and myself conducted by TI founder Terry Laughlin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQI7ich7eco I've also coached an 800m long course masters national champion in her AG, and worked with two pro female triathletes who have competed at Kona. I'm not claiming to be their primary coach...they have sought me out for swim improvement despite having full time coaches that they work with. There is a certain male pro triathlete who has several Ironman pro podiums and competed at Kona who is also heavily influenced by TI coaching and gets tune ups anytime he's at his in-laws house in Boston. This years overall age group winner of IM Wisconsin (Michelle Andres) is a TI swimmer who has attended our open water camp in Kona and worked with TI coach Dave Cameron in Minneapolis. I used to debate a lot about swimming and TI and try to dispel a lot of myths, in fact, you can search these archives and see where I have actually criticized TI in the past for all the reasons people are posting here. But then I took a TI weekend workshop and subsequently coaching course, and have completely changed my perspective. If I find that old thread where I questioned TI I'll post a link here. I changed my mind as a result of exposure and ongoing searching for mentorship in my coaching and feedback on my own swimming. Just Like all athletes are not the same, not all coaches are the same. Not all TI coaches are interested in coaching elite athletes, nor do they pursue ongoing swim coaching education with other TI coaches or other national and world class coaches at places like ASCA conferences. I've met Sheila and Dr. G and Karlyn Pipes and did a nice podcast interview with Karlyn. I took a swim lesson with Karlyn at Kona last year and let her assess my "before" swim before telling her I was a TI coach/swimmer. She had just spent considerable energy in the 2 mini-lessons prior to mine heavily criticizing TI based on how the 2 prior swimmers technique. Here's the funny part... I completely agreed with her assessment of their stroke based on what TI currently teaches. I proceeded to take a lesson with her and appreciated and valued her feedback...and I'm happy to link to those videos I've posted on youtube as well. WE (swim coaches) are all after an end goal that overlaps about 95%, the 5% that is different are what causes many arguments and debate. Yes, it really is a tiny percentage that we take different approaches to. Bottom line...if you're improving keep doing what your doing. If you've stopped improving, try something different. If you're really stuck, come see me I'll get you unstuck. OK, I think I'm at my annual quota for Bt posting. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions EDIT: I reread the question...not about how many national champions i've coached, but how many i've coached TO national championships. Four different athletes competing in both sprint & olympic distance (Fine if you only want to count Olympic). Edited by AdventureBear 2015-10-09 9:26 PM |
| 2015-10-09 9:02 PM in reply to: 0 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? |
| 2015-10-09 9:37 PM in reply to: AdventureBear |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Finally, Channel swimming may not count as "fast" swimming, but last summer a team of TI Coaches...not just TI trained athletes or TI sponsored teams, did an EC relay in a respectable time, and one of our coaches has done a "Triple Crown Relay". Several of our UK TI coaches have also done solo channel swims. David Barra who runs the 7 bridges marathon swim and was nominated for open water swimmer of the year, is a triple crown swimmer, and is a TI coach at many of our open water camps. Adam Walker, who would never mention TI in association with his name it seems possibly out of fear of ridicule, has a stroke heavily influenced by his TI coaching in the UK. Look at his stroke...it's TI. One of my athletes also holds a current world record for a lengthwise crossing of Kinneret (Sea of Galilee). I'm not sharing any of htis to say that TI is "better" than XY or Z because many swim coaches teach great strokes. TI is a system for teaching a good stroke that has many different aplications |
| 2015-10-09 10:15 PM in reply to: AdventureBear |
Member 1004 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Is it too late to take back my original question about 2 stroke or 3 stroke? |
| 2015-10-09 10:20 PM in reply to: b2run |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by b2run Is it too late to take back my original question about 2 stroke or 3 stroke? Yes......before this is over, we're ALL gonna need a shower. |
| 2015-10-09 11:11 PM in reply to: b2run |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? All of the above. |
| 2015-10-10 2:13 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? I can't find any footage of anyone swimming fast using TI techniques, can someone kindly post a video so I can see what fast TI swimming looks like please? All I can find is videos of people that swim like my Grandma. |
| 2015-10-10 2:20 AM in reply to: zedzded |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? This is the best I could find. I think this guy would probably drown in open water https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeHQyqI7zq0 |
| 2015-10-10 2:23 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming????????? Originally posted by Left Brain I'll leave you with this "complicated" swim idea. Sometimes breath every stroke, sometimes breath every other stroke, sometimes breath every 3, or 5, or 7 strokes. At least 2 or 3 times per week swim the length of the pool underwater. Then work forward until you can swim 2 or 3 lengths underwater. Sometimes swim in a hypoxic condition. In short, practice your breathing so that no matter what condition you find yourself in you can get enough air to keep going fast.
Yeah I'll breathe every 2, 3 or 4 depending on what I'm doing in the pool or ocean. I might breathe every 2 coming off the wall, then return to bi-lateral. A WU I might swim every 4, ocean race, probably every 2 depending on conditions. |
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