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Is B2B about to be ruined? (Page 2)
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 2015-12-08 3:15 PM in reply to: nc452010 |
Member  1748     Exton, PA |  Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined?Originally posted by nc452010 It's already a 70.3 (sold out). It's also a 140.6. I assume you're suggesting they'd ditch the 140.6? Yes they will probably ditch the 140.6, That's what I'm thinking anyway. Based on what they just did with AC they could open the 70.3 up to 2500 people and make more money with lees time and logistics involved. |
| 2015-12-08 3:31 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? |
| 2015-12-08 3:42 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by bcagle25 Well if you scroll to the Ironman store. They have events for Ironman B2B full and half...... Did I miss something? I don't see that on Ironman's website. Was there an official announcement? It appears to still all be a rumor based on what I'm not seeing.
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| 2015-12-08 3:46 PM in reply to: lisac957 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by leatherneckpa Have any of you ever done an IM branded race? Was there a significant benefit to it being IM branded, or did it just cost you more money to do the same race? I've done both non-branded and branded IMs. The main differentiation is atmosphere, which is driven by numbers of both participants and spectators. Some light YouTube research will show you a huge difference in nearly every aspect - from the swim start to the finish line. Some would say "you get what you pay for" applies here. It all comes down to what you want out of a race. They both have pros and cons. I think this is generally true, but there some independent races that compare quite favorably with branded races' atmosphere. Musselman and Savageman come immediately to mind. Another that appears to also (I haven't done it, but I've coached athletes for it) is Rev3 Cedar Point. What WTC offers is a relatively consistent experience across all their events, whereas independent races tend to be more hit and miss.
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| 2015-12-08 4:10 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by bcagle25 Well if you scroll to the Ironman store. They have events for Ironman B2B full and half...... Did I miss something? I don't see that on Ironman's website. Was there an official announcement? It appears to still all be a rumor based on what I'm not seeing.
Guess the powers that be have bene lurking around and took it down. However "official" it makes this, just remember they did the exact same thing for Hilton Head and there is no race. |
| 2015-12-08 4:23 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by TriMyBest Guess the powers that be have bene lurking around and took it down. However "official" it makes this, just remember they did the exact same thing for Hilton Head and there is no race. Originally posted by bcagle25 Well if you scroll to the Ironman store. They have events for Ironman B2B full and half...... Did I miss something? I don't see that on Ironman's website. Was there an official announcement? It appears to still all be a rumor based on what I'm not seeing.
Interesting. I forgot about HH. And Asheville. It makes me wonder if WTC does this on purpose as a type of market research - "Leak" a rumor about a race that they're considering, then monitor athletes' response before making the full investment in the event.
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| 2015-12-09 6:57 AM in reply to: alltom1 |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by alltom1 In fact, the reduction of the ranks of independent events by one means WTC is getting close to a monopoly on long course racing and that's probably not such a good thing. So here's hoping this is just a rumor to keep us engaged during the off-season. WTC pretty much has a de facto monopoly on long course racing. Someone over on ST did a very quick analysis on iron distance events (140.6) in the United States. There were about 30,000 people that participated in a 140.6 event. There were 12 IM events and about 20 non-branded events. Ironman accounted for about 28,000 of the 30,000 number. The 20 non-IM branded events had less than 2000 total, the most popular of which included Vineman (300), B2B (500), Redman (100), GFT (200), Challenge AC (150), and Challenge Cedar Point (170). Basically, one IM 140.6 event has more participants than the total of all non-branded 140.6 races. This is just the 140.6 distance in the U.S. Add Canada and Mexico to the mix and it looks even worse. I think there's only one non-branded 140.6 race in Canada (Challenge Penticton, which is more or less no more) and zero non-branded 140.6 races in Mexico. There's three IM's in Canada and two in Mexico. So the numbers would look more like 37,000 vs 2200 in North America. There are more non-IM 70.3 races but there are also more IM 70.3 races. We'd be kidding ourselves to think WTC doesn't have a lock on that distance too. I think B2B is the only non-WTC 70.3 to break 1000 participants.... and it looks like that's about to be a WTC race. |
| 2015-12-09 1:35 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Member 241 | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by bcagle25 Well if you scroll to the Ironman store. They have events for Ironman B2B full and half...... Can you provide a link to that because I'm not seeing it. |
| 2015-12-09 1:52 PM in reply to: Lock_N_Load |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by Lock_N_Load Originally posted by bcagle25 Well if you scroll to the Ironman store. They have events for Ironman B2B full and half...... Can you provide a link to that because I'm not seeing it. it's been taken down. it was posted there. i saw it when i posted a link and a few ppl on fb have screenshots of it, too. |
| 2015-12-09 2:46 PM in reply to: d00d |
Regular 233 Clermont, Florida | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? I've got a copy of the screen shot but am apparently too much of a caveman to know how to attach it. On the other site discussion forum of Ironman North Carolina it appears on page 6 of the discussion if you are interested. |
| 2015-12-09 8:45 PM in reply to: GAUG3 |
Master 2202 Canton, Michigan | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by GAUG3 Yes, B2B will double in price; however, it will quintuple in registrants. That is exactly the issue. I know the run course gets a little spread out especially on the second loop, but having room on the bike portion and not getting drowned by so many more people is what made B2B a nice race. I'm not even certain how they could fit that many more athletes at the beginning as there isn't much room at the drop off for the full start. I'm sure IM would figure out a way to make T1 roomy enough to fit so many more bicycles in that area but that would seem to be a challenge too. Either way it is a sad development to those of us that support smaller races, I don't need the hoopla of IM brand and wasn't that impressed at Steelhead, all I saw was a corporation cramming as many people in as possible for the biggest profit with no real thought of athlete safety. |
| 2015-12-10 8:18 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Veteran 434 Apex, NC | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? I can see pros and cons to this one. I have not done B2B in 3 years because it's not an IM event and I wanted to qualify for 70.3 world championships. Now that it's a qualifier I could see myself doing it again. And I know others in the same boat. Could it be improved? I doubt it. And as others have said it could get a lot worse with more athletes. I actually wish they would have made the announcement sooner and I would have chose B2B over Chattanooga for next year but I already wrote my check for Chattanooga. |
| 2015-12-10 8:23 AM in reply to: rottieguy |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by rottieguy Originally posted by GAUG3 Yes, B2B will double in price; however, it will quintuple in registrants. That is exactly the issue. I know the run course gets a little spread out especially on the second loop, but having room on the bike portion and not getting drowned by so many more people is what made B2B a nice race. I'm not even certain how they could fit that many more athletes at the beginning as there isn't much room at the drop off for the full start. I'm sure IM would figure out a way to make T1 roomy enough to fit so many more bicycles in that area but that would seem to be a challenge too. Either way it is a sad development to those of us that support smaller races, I don't need the hoopla of IM brand and wasn't that impressed at Steelhead, all I saw was a corporation cramming as many people in as possible for the biggest profit with no real thought of athlete safety. What did you think was unsafe about Steelhead? I started in the second to last wave and passed over half the field and I didn't see anything unsafe at all. Yes, there are a lot of bikes on the course but it is nice to have company out there. I remember one of my early (non IM) races getting to a point where I hadn't seen another bike in close to 20 minutes and became convinced that I must have gone off course somewhere....... Unlikely to occur when racing with 2,000 like-minded individuals. I did another 70.3 distance race a week after Steelhead and several of us missed a turn on the bike and went off course due to lack of volunteers directing traffic. My only DNF in nine years of triathlon racing. I can just about guarantee that this won't happen at an IM race. That doesn't mean I won't go back to this independent race. I love this particular race and really like supporting the race company but I realize that you get a very different level of production (good and bad) at IM vs independents. HITS may be cheaper but I have read too many stories of people out on essentially unmarked roads, alone except for the cars, having no idea where they are on the course, with no aid stations or volunteers. A great transition zone doesn't make up for this. If I want a solo training day and riding with cars, I can do that without leaving my community. As far as cost..... I am actually always amazed that IM doesn't charge more and I think that independent races probably do need to up the ante. The production costs of putting on a long course triathlon have to be staggering. Road closures. Park rentals. Police presence. Ambulance/first aid availability. Aid stations. If you look at the cost of an IM vs any medium sized marathon I would argue that it is a pretty good value. As someone else said, IM is a for-profit company. I am of the opinion that they have been pretty excellent stewards of the sport. The presence of IM on the race scene has grown long course triathlon in America. Many of us were very excited to see Challenge enter the North American market. Unfortunately, their race production left much to be desired and they have essentially exited without a whimper. If they had produced a race that was on par with IM for less $ then people would have flocked to their races. They didn't and the people didn't. Anyways, I can go on and on. Most people have made up their minds. To answer the OP: I have raced between one and four IM events per year since 2011. I will continue to race IM events because it is a great product and I feel like I get great value for my dollars. I will continue to race independent races as they fit in my schedule--Savageman is on my must-do list. |
| 2015-12-10 9:07 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 265 | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by wannabefasterI did another 70.3 distance race a week after Steelhead and several of us missed a turn on the bike and went off course due to lack of volunteers directing traffic. My only DNF in nine years of triathlon racing. I can just about guarantee that this won't happen at an IM race. That doesn't mean I won't go back to this independent race. I love this particular race and really like supporting the race company but I realize that you get a very different level of production (good and bad) at IM vs independents. HITS may be cheaper but I have read too many stories of people out on essentially unmarked roads, alone except for the cars, having no idea where they are on the course, with no aid stations or volunteers. A great transition zone doesn't make up for this. If I want a solo training day and riding with cars, I can do that without leaving my community. Good points. I was involved as a Volunteer Captain for IM 140.6 Coeur d'Alene for 6 years. Every year but one was in the area of course marshals (pointers) on either the run or bike course. Mostly bike. I can tell you that a great deal of thought and hard work goes into the planning of these areas, the assignment of volunteers at the most relevant intersections (where you'd be most likely to take a wrong turn or have a bike / car interaction) and the recruitment of volunteers who enhance the athletes' experience with their enthusiastic support. The sheer abundance of volunteers at an Ironman event makes the whole race better. Ironman also spends a lot of money on professional traffic control at the busiest intersections on roads which cannot be completely closed on race day. I've sat through many captains meetings prior to each race and I can tell you that the same focus on quality and the athlete experience is seen in the other volunteer categories: aid stations, finish line support, swim support etc., etc. I have become a triathlete and have begun doing tri races. I will be doing the inaugural Ironman 70.3 in Coeur d'Alene next year. I am glad it is an Ironman branded event. Edited by HaydenHunter 2015-12-10 9:12 AM |
| 2015-12-10 9:37 AM in reply to: HaydenHunter |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by HaydenHunter Originally posted by wannabefasterI did another 70.3 distance race a week after Steelhead and several of us missed a turn on the bike and went off course due to lack of volunteers directing traffic. My only DNF in nine years of triathlon racing. I can just about guarantee that this won't happen at an IM race. That doesn't mean I won't go back to this independent race. I love this particular race and really like supporting the race company but I realize that you get a very different level of production (good and bad) at IM vs independents. HITS may be cheaper but I have read too many stories of people out on essentially unmarked roads, alone except for the cars, having no idea where they are on the course, with no aid stations or volunteers. A great transition zone doesn't make up for this. If I want a solo training day and riding with cars, I can do that without leaving my community. Good points. I was involved as a Volunteer Captain for IM 140.6 Coeur d'Alene for 6 years. Every year but one was in the area of course marshals (pointers) on either the run or bike course. Mostly bike. I can tell you that a great deal of thought and hard work goes into the planning of these areas, the assignment of volunteers at the most relevant intersections (where you'd be most likely to take a wrong turn or have a bike / car interaction) and the recruitment of volunteers who enhance the athletes' experience with their enthusiastic support. The sheer abundance of volunteers at an Ironman event makes the whole race better. Ironman also spends a lot of money on professional traffic control at the busiest intersections on roads which cannot be completely closed on race day. I've sat through many captains meetings prior to each race and I can tell you that the same focus on quality and the athlete experience is seen in the other volunteer categories: aid stations, finish line support, swim support etc., etc. I have become a triathlete and have begun doing tri races. I will be doing the inaugural Ironman 70.3 in Coeur d'Alene next year. I am glad it is an Ironman branded event. The point about the complaints is that, eventually, they'll all be Ironman branded...I've also seen ppl cite that if you participate in tri, don't complain about price. Really? At the rate the prices are increasing, I bet you'll pay a full IM price for a 70.3 in 7-10 years. IMO, ridiculous. |
| 2015-12-10 9:46 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Regular 156 | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? B2B was my first and only iron distance race to date. It was an awesome experience and a beautiful venue. I thought the course was very well supported and the town really turns out in support as well. I have done many races but never a WTC so I have no frame of reference for comparison. I had seriously considered doing the race again due to the experience and relatively close proximity but will not if it's bought and prices skyrocket as I'm certain they will. I just don't see significant room for improvement.. I think it would be nice to have the finish back at the battleship instead of the convention center. I thought that was really neat, Hate to see this happen. |
| 2015-12-10 1:18 PM in reply to: d00d |
Master 2725 Washington, DC Metro | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by d00d Originally posted by Lock_N_Load it's been taken down. it was posted there. i saw it when i posted a link and a few ppl on fb have screenshots of it, too. Originally posted by bcagle25 Well if you scroll to the Ironman store. They have events for Ironman B2B full and half...... Can you provide a link to that because I'm not seeing it. Here you go...
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| 2015-12-11 10:25 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
| Member 587 | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? I have no idea if B2B is about to be ruined but any chance that I will do an 140.6 is pretty much over. I really do not have an inclination to go that long, however if I ever did decide to go long B2B was the race I would have done. There are various reasons for me but I have no intention to do any WTC race. |
| 2015-12-11 10:56 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Extreme Veteran 565 Jenison , MI | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? This has turned my whole season upside down. Have been planning to signup for this one all year. Now with the price increase that we all know is coming it's taken it out of my budget. I'm still going for my first 140.6 though. It's now changed to a local one. Where this change has messed up my plans is that it's 2 months sooner. making me change other planned races due to timing and means that's two more months of winter training I was not planning on. |
| 2015-12-11 4:09 PM in reply to: #5155461 |
Member 220 Wakefield, Massachusetts | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? As someone who's never done a WTC race (or any 140.6 for that matter), I'm curious what accounts for the difference in price. From this thread it sounds like there isn't a big difference in perks for the racers, so does the cost to the organizers really scale non-linearly as the number of registrants grows, or is it just increased profit margin? |
| 2015-12-13 4:55 AM in reply to: Fourteenkittens |
| 15 | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by Fourteenkittens As someone who's never done a WTC race (or any 140.6 for that matter), I'm curious what accounts for the difference in price. From this thread it sounds like there isn't a big difference in perks for the racers, so does the cost to the organizers really scale non-linearly as the number of registrants grows, or is it just increased profit margin? WTC prices are a little higher than B2B at their 70.3s, but MUCH higher for 140.6... and the main thing the lemmings pay for is "You are an Ironman." |
| 2015-12-13 5:02 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 15 | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? My honest interpretation of this is that WTC will reduce the quality of B2B. Seeing both distances listed in that leak is the only positive sign I have seen. The only logistically sound way to put on an event for 2500+ people is to split them between the two race distances... 1000-1200 in the full and 1500-1800 in the half. Someone mentioned the transition area, and you have to remember they do two distances... 1800 bikes would require no expansion of T1 or T2 at all... they've done it! The full swim start is problematic. The access is basically a mile dead-end, and while it works shuttling 500-700 athletes there, trying to get 2000 there would be an absolute cluster. Does WTC understand how tides work? The NYC briefing a few years ago where they were telling people it would be a non-factor, but didn't understand they were in the max outgoing tide, makes me think they don't. Anyone think they will ignorantly schedule a future B2B date AGAINST the tide? The drawbridges on the bike course (one in the first mile, one in the last mile) are sketchy but manageable for B2B and the field sizes we have known. In a WTC field, they're a peloton crash waiting to happen. B2B had good swag, great volunteers, and a right-sized race for the venue. Edited by beastofbourbon 2015-12-13 5:09 AM |
| 2015-12-17 10:37 AM in reply to: beastofbourbon |
Master 2429 Falls Church, Virginia | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Looks like its official: http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/events/americas/ironman/north-caro... |
| 2015-12-17 11:03 AM in reply to: beastofbourbon |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by beastofbourbon My honest interpretation of this is that WTC will reduce the quality of B2B. Seeing both distances listed in that leak is the only positive sign I have seen. The only logistically sound way to put on an event for 2500+ people is to split them between the two race distances... 1000-1200 in the full and 1500-1800 in the half. Someone mentioned the transition area, and you have to remember they do two distances... 1800 bikes would require no expansion of T1 or T2 at all... they've done it! The full swim start is problematic. The access is basically a mile dead-end, and while it works shuttling 500-700 athletes there, trying to get 2000 there would be an absolute cluster. Does WTC understand how tides work? The NYC briefing a few years ago where they were telling people it would be a non-factor, but didn't understand they were in the max outgoing tide, makes me think they don't. Anyone think they will ignorantly schedule a future B2B date AGAINST the tide? The drawbridges on the bike course (one in the first mile, one in the last mile) are sketchy but manageable for B2B and the field sizes we have known. In a WTC field, they're a peloton crash waiting to happen. B2B had good swag, great volunteers, and a right-sized race for the venue. You talk as though WTC has never put on a race before! Other than the higher cost WTC races are good events. Yes they know how tides work. |
| 2015-12-17 11:11 AM in reply to: Atlantia |
| 18 Newport, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? It's official. Just got an email from Wilmington YMCA announcing the transfer. |
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