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2016-01-14 2:16 PM


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Subject: Sudden change in performance
Hi all, things have been going well in my plan to build base fitness before training for an event in April . Two weeks ago I picked up some kind of throat,cold virus but that's getting better, I m doing sessions but I am falling asleep afterwards because I feel unusually fatigued, I am also sleeping excessively at night.manither worry is I can't seem to get my HR up to 160 which is the end of zone 2/beg of Zone 3 (please note I don't need my HR zones exploring I am very happy with the way these have been formulated and have been training with them for some time). I just don't understand why I can't get my HR up despite getting to the point where I'm going as hard as I can . I'm going on holiday next week for 3 weeks so I am already worried about the fitness I will lose and I really want to complete my first HIM
Any help advice welcome


2016-01-14 2:57 PM
in reply to: loops

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Viruses can take a long time to run all the way through (4-6 weeks).  I'd say you are just experiencing effects of the virus which is very likely still present in your body.  My advice is take it easy when you are sick, don't push hard trying to hit some previous performance level.  Going easy but getting some time in is plenty at this stage.  Some of these viruses can attack the heart tissue and bang, it's all over in an instant if you push it too hard -- this is fairly rare, but not unheard of.  Your performance should come back around within a few weeks as your body returns to normal health.  Needing more sleep is a sign that your body needs it, so get that extra sleep.

2016-01-14 7:04 PM
in reply to: SevenZulu

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
Originally posted by SevenZulu

Viruses can take a long time to run all the way through (4-6 weeks).  I'd say you are just experiencing effects of the virus which is very likely still present in your body.  My advice is take it easy when you are sick, don't push hard trying to hit some previous performance level.  Going easy but getting some time in is plenty at this stage.  Some of these viruses can attack the heart tissue and bang, it's all over in an instant if you push it too hard -- this is fairly rare, but not unheard of.  Your performance should come back around within a few weeks as your body returns to normal health.  Needing more sleep is a sign that your body needs it, so get that extra sleep.




You might want to consult a physician as well.

2016-01-15 3:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
Thanks I might check in with Dr it's affecting my motivation and confidence
2016-01-17 7:38 AM
in reply to: loops

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Id agree you've gone too intense too early and their is still a few bugs floating around your system.

This is completely human, most normal people will be raring to get back into training and might hit it too early. I'd say take another week of light or no exercise and then try again.  Personally speaking I went flying into training after the Xmas break and pulled a hamstring, because I hadnt trained for a few weeks and my muscles/tendons/ligaments didnt like the surprise - easy yourself back into it

2016-01-17 2:14 PM
in reply to: loops

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by loops

Hi all, things have been going well in my plan to build base fitness before training for an event in April . Two weeks ago I picked up some kind of throat,cold virus but that's getting better, I m doing sessions but I am falling asleep afterwards because I feel unusually fatigued, I am also sleeping excessively at night.my other worry is I can't seem to get my HR up to 160 . . .

I have been reluctant to respond because, well, I fully expect to be told I am an idiot.  However, if you're gonna post in public forums you just need to develop a thick skin.  So, since nobody else has mentioned it, here goes.

You don't mention what your training has looked like (i.e. volume or intensity) and there is nothing in your logs to give any insight.  However, what you mention are often considered to be classic early signs of overtraining.  You can go to any number of sites and see that "Increased susceptibility to sickness and injury" - https://greenfieldfitnesssystems.com/article-archive/all-about-overtraining/ - is an early sign of overtraining.  

On the site https://overtrainingsyndrome.wordpress.com/testimony/ is the statement, "Many triathletes, marathoners, cyclists, and other endurance athletes who were diagnosed with overtraining also noted that they had difficulty getting their heart rate up into the training zone that they wanted to be in for a given workout."

Are you showing signs of overtraining syndrome?  I have no idea.  I am not a doctor.  However, early overtraining is relatively easy to correct, while chronic overtraining syndrome has ended athletic careers.  If nothing else, a close look at your training logs and a visit to a doctor might be a good idea.

Another BT member recently had a personal battle with overtraining syndrome.  He posted a great article about it here on BT at http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=537259&posts=16#M5151783 and linked to an article on his blog at http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com/2015/11/overtraining-syndrome-ots-my-experience.html.  The article is certainly worth the time to read.

Good luck!

 



2016-01-17 7:07 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by loops

Hi all, things have been going well in my plan to build base fitness before training for an event in April . Two weeks ago I picked up some kind of throat,cold virus but that's getting better, I m doing sessions but I am falling asleep afterwards because I feel unusually fatigued, I am also sleeping excessively at night.my other worry is I can't seem to get my HR up to 160 . . .

I have been reluctant to respond because, well, I fully expect to be told I am an idiot.  However, if you're gonna post in public forums you just need to develop a thick skin.  So, since nobody else has mentioned it, here goes.

You don't mention what your training has looked like (i.e. volume or intensity) and there is nothing in your logs to give any insight.  However, what you mention are often considered to be classic early signs of overtraining.  You can go to any number of sites and see that "Increased susceptibility to sickness and injury" - https://greenfieldfitnesssystems.com/article-archive/all-about-overtraining/ - is an early sign of overtraining.  

On the site https://overtrainingsyndrome.wordpress.com/testimony/ is the statement, "Many triathletes, marathoners, cyclists, and other endurance athletes who were diagnosed with overtraining also noted that they had difficulty getting their heart rate up into the training zone that they wanted to be in for a given workout."

Are you showing signs of overtraining syndrome?  I have no idea.  I am not a doctor.  However, early overtraining is relatively easy to correct, while chronic overtraining syndrome has ended athletic careers.  If nothing else, a close look at your training logs and a visit to a doctor might be a good idea.

Another BT member recently had a personal battle with overtraining syndrome.  He posted a great article about it here on BT at http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=537259&posts=16#M5151783 and linked to an article on his blog at http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com/2015/11/overtraining-syndrome-ots-my-experience.html.  The article is certainly worth the time to read.

Good luck!

 

I don't think you're an idiot, Scott.    I agree with your premise, but suspect that the OP isn't yet into the realm of OTS, but is likely experiencing overreaching / under recovery due to the combination of the increased training that they imply and the illness.  The difficulty in achieving HR's that were relatively low intensities a few weeks earlier is one of the most common symptoms of being under recovered.  The OP doesn't want to hear this, but the solution is more rest and allowing the body to recovery completely from the illness.  Continuing to train and push forward and ignoring the overreaching / under recovered symptoms can progress things into OTS.

 

2016-01-17 8:08 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by TriMyBest

I don't think you're an idiot, Scott.    I agree with your premise, but suspect that the OP isn't yet into the realm of OTS, but is likely experiencing overreaching / under recovery due to the combination of the increased training that they imply and the illness.  The difficulty in achieving HR's that were relatively low intensities a few weeks earlier is one of the most common symptoms of being under recovered.  The OP doesn't want to hear this, but the solution is more rest and allowing the body to recovery completely from the illness.  Continuing to train and push forward and ignoring the overreaching / under recovered symptoms can progress things into OTS.

Hey Dan,

Admittedly this is probably hijacking the thread away from the OP's question.  That said, and not to argue, but to have a discussion - aren't the earliest stages of OTS and over-reaching two sides of the same coin?  In either case, the "treatment" of choice would be to shut it down, or at least heavily restrict training, until full recovery is achieved.  According to Dr. Phil Maffetone (http://philmaffetone.com/the-overtraining-syndrome/), Stage 1 overtraining may be synonymous with overreaching.  How do you tell the difference? Or perhaps the better question, WHAT is the difference?

A little "back story" - I recently started working with an athlete that is recovering from Stage 3 OTS, having been diagnosed ~20 months ago.  Needless to say, I have taken a special interest in OTS.  When I read the OP my mind immediately went to early OTS.

2016-01-18 2:37 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by TriMyBest

I don't think you're an idiot, Scott.    I agree with your premise, but suspect that the OP isn't yet into the realm of OTS, but is likely experiencing overreaching / under recovery due to the combination of the increased training that they imply and the illness.  The difficulty in achieving HR's that were relatively low intensities a few weeks earlier is one of the most common symptoms of being under recovered.  The OP doesn't want to hear this, but the solution is more rest and allowing the body to recovery completely from the illness.  Continuing to train and push forward and ignoring the overreaching / under recovered symptoms can progress things into OTS.

Hey Dan,

Admittedly this is probably hijacking the thread away from the OP's question.  That said, and not to argue, but to have a discussion - aren't the earliest stages of OTS and over-reaching two sides of the same coin?  In either case, the "treatment" of choice would be to shut it down, or at least heavily restrict training, until full recovery is achieved.  According to Dr. Phil Maffetone (http://philmaffetone.com/the-overtraining-syndrome/), Stage 1 overtraining may be synonymous with overreaching.  How do you tell the difference? Or perhaps the better question, WHAT is the difference?

A little "back story" - I recently started working with an athlete that is recovering from Stage 3 OTS, having been diagnosed ~20 months ago.  Needless to say, I have taken a special interest in OTS.  When I read the OP my mind immediately went to early OTS.

People like to group things into neat little boxes, when things are really a continuum.  Overreaching versus OTS is just how we decide to define two "zones" on the continuum.  With overreaching, a couple days to a week or two of relative rest will allow the body to return to a normal healthy state and training can resume.  With OTS, more severe damage has been done, and recovery is going to be measured in months.

The best cure is prevention.  Teaching athletes that more training is not always better can go a long way towards preventing it in the first place.

 

2016-01-18 3:37 PM
in reply to: #5161878


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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
Trimybest
I'm not sure what the 'thick skin "is about, I find the start of your post to be almost threatening and unsupportive especially given that this a Beginners triathlon site.
2016-01-18 3:40 PM
in reply to: #5162387


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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
K9car I'm not sure why you think the OP myself does not want to hear it and why you have referred to me in the third person, that's quite rude. If you want to give an opinion to the OP then you should say it To them.


2016-01-18 3:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
Re above 2 posts I think I have got your names the wrong way round, I guess that's quite obvious though.
2016-01-18 4:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by loops K9car I'm not sure why you think the OP myself does not want to hear it and why you have referred to me in the third person, that's quite rude. If you want to give an opinion to the OP then you should say it To them.

Yeah, you have Scott and I mixed up, but that's ok.  

The reason I said you didn't want to hear it was because most endurance athletes want to keep training all the time, and don't like to hear they should rest.  This is especially true when a race is on their calendar.

The reason I referred to you in the third person is because my post was in response to Scott.  If I were responding to your post while referring to someone else's post, I'd address you in the first person, and them in the third.  It's a way of writing in forums that's fairly common.  I don't mean to be rude.  It's just my style of writing.  I'm here trying to help you.

ETA:  BTW, Scott wasn't saying you needed a thick skin.  He was talking about himself, because of the possibility of other posters saying he was an idiot.

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2016-01-18 4:04 PM
2016-01-18 7:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by loops

I'm not sure what the 'thick skin "is about, I find the start of your post to be almost threatening and unsupportive especially given that this a Beginners triathlon site.

The "thick skin" reference wasn't directed at you.  I tend to be one that says things that others sometimes won't say or vehemently disagree with.  That often results in heated comments directed towards me.  The thick skin comment was merely an obviously ineffective attempt at defusing those comments before they were made.  That said, I have to say I find it interesting that you chose to attack both Dan and I instead of acknowledge that we were attempting to offer answers to your questions.  Which kind of proved my rationale for the thick skin comment.  But hey, whatever.  Good luck.



Edited by k9car363 2016-01-18 8:20 PM
2016-01-18 10:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Or.......you have/had the same upper respiratory crap that the rest of us have.....it can last upwards of 6 weeks from what I have seen. As I got over it I was falling asleep at my desk.......I'm training exactly NONE.   LOL 

I would say the chances that you are overtrained tend toward zero. You're more likely getting over being sick......rest up, train when you can, and try not to over-complicate this. 

It's triathlon.....not a WW2 beach landing.



Edited by Left Brain 2016-01-18 10:19 PM
2016-01-19 7:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

I love these little pictures. I am not saying you are overtrained or not. Without logs that would be pretty hard to determine, but since someone brought it up, I thought these were educational





Edited by marcag 2016-01-19 7:16 AM


2016-01-19 9:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Nice pictures, Marc.  Thanks for sharing.

 

2016-01-19 10:11 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Don and Scott.......how common do you think OTS actually is?  Admittedly, I don't know muchy about it and haven't seen it (that I know of) in any of the athletes I'm around who train extensively. 

I do agree completely with something you said, Don......when there has been a period of hard racing, like during XC season when it's a championship race every week for 5 weeks.....training is shut down completely if there is any sign of illness at all. (fever, cough, no appetitie, etc)

2016-01-19 11:20 AM
in reply to: #5161785


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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
Hi left brain, you are right I have a sinus infection and this is now affecting my asthma so some pills and rest for me, which has been quite pleasant!
2016-01-19 11:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
Originally posted by Left Brain

Don and Scott.......how common do you think OTS actually is?  Admittedly, I don't know muchy about it and haven't seen it (that I know of) in any of the athletes I'm around who train extensively. 

I do agree completely with something you said, Don......when there has been a period of hard racing, like during XC season when it's a championship race every week for 5 weeks.....training is shut down completely if there is any sign of illness at all. (fever, cough, no appetitie, etc)




It is common. People discount it "you only trained 9 hours last week, how could you be overtrained".
But look at that picture : "Multiple stressors may add to the stress of physical training (like interpersonal difficulties)"
Stress on the body comes in many forms, when there is too much, you get in a bad state
So over trained is probably the wrong label. Overloaded is


Edited by marcag 2016-01-19 11:38 AM
2016-01-19 11:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by Left Brain

Don and Scott.......how common do you think OTS actually is?  Admittedly, I don't know muchy about it and haven't seen it (that I know of) in any of the athletes I'm around who train extensively. 

I do agree completely with something you said, Don......when there has been a period of hard racing, like during XC season when it's a championship race every week for 5 weeks.....training is shut down completely if there is any sign of illness at all. (fever, cough, no appetitie, etc)

OTS isn't very common, but that doesn't mean that athletes can ignore it's possibility.  I've never had an athlete progress to the point of OTS, but it's common for athletes to experience overreaching.  Like Marc's picture indicated, monitoring the athlete and adjusting training and recovery as needed is important.  IME, most AGers will get sick if they're overreaching too much, which then forces rest, allowing them to recover before doing any real damage.  An athlete who is getting sick repeatedly should consider the possibility that they're trying to progress their training faster than their body can adapt.

I'd suspect that you would be unlikely to witness it with any of the youth athletes you're around, because it sounds like they're working with multiple reputable coaches who are focusing on sustainable long term development unlike professional athletes who may be more likely to be trying to squeeze out that last little bit of additional performance in the current season.  They're also not AGer's who are trying to balance life's other stressors with training and recovery without the objective guidance of a coach.

In the end, athletes need to learn that more training isn't always better.  The objective is to do the minimum amount of training that will result in the maximum amount of adaptations.  Doing too much and not being recovered for the next training session can impair improvements.  Sometimes doing less in a session to allow quicker recovery and more frequent training sessions will provide greater fitness gains over a shorter period of time.

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2016-01-19 11:31 AM


2016-01-19 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Don and Scott.......how common do you think OTS actually is?  Admittedly, I don't know muchy about it and haven't seen it (that I know of) in any of the athletes I'm around who train extensively. 

I do agree completely with something you said, Don......when there has been a period of hard racing, like during XC season when it's a championship race every week for 5 weeks.....training is shut down completely if there is any sign of illness at all. (fever, cough, no appetitie, etc)

It is common. People discount it "you only trained 9 hours last week, how could you be overtrained". But look at that picture : "Multiple stressors may add to the stress of physical training (like interpersonal difficulties)" Stress on the body comes in many forms, when there is too much, you get in a bad state So over trained is probably the wrong label. Overloaded is

Yeah, admittedly, I never count in the "other stressors" that you mention and that Don always alludes to. (which I have to believe is valid)  I've seen people reduced to a shell of themselves just from stress.....no way you could add any meaningful training on top of it.  

Still, in the OP's case.....I'm voting for sick.  I had that crap.....walking up stairs made me want to lay down.

2016-01-20 8:50 PM
in reply to: loops

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
Some thoughts on heart rates are that how fast it beats may be calibrated by how active the muscles are. With some loss of strength from the illness you may not be pushing as hard. The heart interprets it as not needing to beat as fast. If you are still having some symptoms from the virus you may not feel like working that hard. Your get up and go has gotten up and gone. Ergo less need for cardiac output.

As others have posted before, the effects of a virus can linger an incredibly long time. In extreme cases such as West Nile, they can have permanent effects. Some people will go on to develop Guilliain Barre syndrome with diffuse body weakness that develops over the next two or three weeks.

Many exposures to Virus are considered sub clinical. If you had a more usual life style you wouldn't even know you had a problem. In your case since you're working out to the extreme you'll be able to feel the difference.

I would at least discuss this problem with your primary md so at least someone other than you knows what's going on.
2016-01-20 9:09 PM
in reply to: loops


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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
I'm not an expert at all, but I can say that I have been fighting a sinus and chest cold for 3 weeks, and I have had to reduce my pace in all areas. Part of the reason is fatigue, but for me, my HR has been HIGHER than normal when I am sick. You had mentioned that you couldn't get yours up to 160? I have had to add 35-45 seconds/mile to my pace when running just to keep things normal. Also, while I have been sick, my resting HR has been up about 6 or 7 beats/minute all day. And, talk about fatigue? can't wait to go to bed, which is what I am going to do right now....lol

PS took 3 full days off. Feeling a little stir crazy but better as I finally got a Z Pack. Might try to start up tomorrow again.
2016-01-21 5:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
I'm not Don or Scott, but in my younger days I had a few acquaintances, including an occasional training partner, who succumbed to what I believe was OTS. It often (but not always) affects people who train very compulsively, without (or in spite of) competent coaching, and often ignoring what their bodies (and coaches) are trying to tell them. In at least one case and possibly the others, I'm sure the issue was compounded by disordered eating, or at least questionable nutrition, if not an actual eating disorder, which obviously affects recovery and resilience. These were young athletes (post-collegiate--both male and female) who ran upwards of 100 miles a week, with a fair amount of intensity. All were marathon/distance runners trying to break into the pro ranks, and there was a lot of pressure to do well in races, get sponsorships, etc. They were training at the same volume and intensity as the pros, without the resources that top pros have access to, and struggling even to afford training shoes, food, housing, etc. At the time it was diagnosed as chronic fatigue syndrome. Both never did return to the same level as before, and eventually quit competitive running.

Probably pure OTS wouldn't be that common in recreational athletes, but given that some do put in amazingly high loads considering otherwise very full lives, and OCD type behavior seems pretty common in triathletes, I wouldn't doubt that it's possible. It would seem to me to be more of a danger with tri--one would be more likely to be stopped by other limiters like soreness, mental staleness. and injury with a single sport focus (particularly running) before OTS developed, whereas it might be easier, at least initially, to sustain a higher, possibly excessive, training load with three different sports, two of which are low-impact. Just thinking of myself, you couldn't PAY me to run 15 hours a week (which would have been over 120 miles a week when I was younger), but I regularly (and usually quite happily) do it with tri, even now at 46, in a peak week. But it's still 15 hours of training, some of it fairly intense, that requires adequate nutrition, recovery, etc. to sustain.

Edited by Hot Runner 2016-01-21 6:06 AM
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