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2016-01-29 12:10 PM


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Subject: Fast without speed work
While I was running yesterday doing some intervals, I remembered something a guy told me. I called this guy to ask him how he was training because he went from beginner to top of the pack in a year. He's 36 years old. Started doing sprints and biking 17-18 mph and running 8:15-8:30 pace and in one year he was biking 23 mph, running 6:20 paces for sprints. Mind boggling to me. So I asked him what kind of speed work he did for running. He said "man I ain't ever done an interval before. I just go out and run whatever pace feels good.(he's a country boy). So my question is, how the heck do you get fast if you're not doing speed work intervals. Can you just go out and run at a comfortable pace, and do it enough that eventually a 6:00 pace feels comfortable? Doesn't make sense at all to me. Made me wonder if I'm wasting my time with speed work. I'm at about a 6:40 pace for sprint races and I've always done speed work. So can someone explain the process of getting very fast without any type of interval training?


2016-01-29 12:15 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
have good parents is probably the simplest answer.
2016-01-29 12:17 PM
in reply to: #5164189


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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
His open 5k went from 7:20-7:30 to slightly sub6 pace, a pace I've never been able to reach doing speed work
2016-01-29 12:21 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Denver, Colorado
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Yes! This is possible. Search for BarryP program. Here are some links:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2548394;search_string=b...
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1612485;search_string=r...

His philosophy is running more often, but at the slower pace. I could not believe either, but read plenty of reviews (even here, at BT) and lots of people admitted it helped with pace. It is also great for injury prevention.
2016-01-29 12:26 PM
in reply to: marysia83

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Not to overgeneralize here (but I'm going to anyway LOL), many successful running programs use most of their mileage as slow/comfortable/easy, and then throw in some "speed" work in various forms.  Those forms depend on the plan and your target race distance.

For younger athletes you might see a reverse, as they don't do a ton of miles.  Again an oversimplification.

I personally dropped my open 5K from 24 flat to sub-22 running about 85-90% easy miles.  That's not podium by any stretch but it was only averaging like 15 miles/week.

2016-01-29 12:39 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Besides choosing your parents well, it depends on what you mean by "fast".   It's not the same as "faster".  We can all get "faster"......running more is one way.  You say you want to get "very fast"......in fact, you said, "So can someone explain the process of getting very fast without any type of interval training?"  There is no process for that.  You must do intervals to get "very fast".  So does your friend if he ever wants to be.



2016-01-29 12:50 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
How he runs that "feels good" may be speed work. Go work out with him some and find out. One persons definition of fast can be some else's definition of slow.

What's his background? did he run 4 minutes miles in high school? It's easier to get fast when you were that before.
2016-01-29 12:59 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
"If you want to run fast, you've got to run fast." - I can't remember where I heard it, but it's true. When I skip intervals I get slower.

Of course, your friend may just be blessed with great genetics. You can't trade those I'm afraid.

I'd just keep experimenting with things that get results for you. It's part of the fun.
2016-01-29 1:11 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by mchadcota2

While I was running yesterday doing some intervals, I remembered something a guy told me. I called this guy to ask him how he was training because he went from beginner to top of the pack in a year. He's 36 years old. Started doing sprints and biking 17-18 mph and running 8:15-8:30 pace and in one year he was biking 23 mph, running 6:20 paces for sprints. Mind boggling to me. So I asked him what kind of speed work he did for running. He said "man I ain't ever done an interval before. I just go out and run whatever pace feels good.(he's a country boy). So my question is, how the heck do you get fast if you're not doing speed work intervals. Can you just go out and run at a comfortable pace, and do it enough that eventually a 6:00 pace feels comfortable? Doesn't make sense at all to me. Made me wonder if I'm wasting my time with speed work. I'm at about a 6:40 pace for sprint races and I've always done speed work. So can someone explain the process of getting very fast without any type of interval training?


maybe you're not doing the right speed work ?

to your question, Ed Whitlock ran 6m40 miles in his marathon at the tender age of 73.
He says he does not do speedwork. He runs a lot though. And he did some when he was younger.
2016-01-29 1:13 PM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
From my experience it doesn't work that way. You have to run fast to be fast. I used to run 3-4 6 mile runs a week but it never improved my 3 mile time until I started including speed work. I have tried different styles but have never committed to a program. The only thing that really gave me results was throwing in speed work. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the target distance.

Edited by runtim23 2016-01-29 1:14 PM
2016-01-29 1:26 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
What works for one person, doesn't necessarily work for another. I could spend years doing the exact same workouts as LeBron James, but I assure you, I'll never dunk a ball.

Your friend saw improvement by not doing speed work. That's not outside of the realm of possibilities, but how much would he have seen had he done speed work? I think it's been proven quite a few times over that you will see greater improvements through interval training. He could be a statistical outlier, but he would have likely seen greater improvements had he done intervals.

Also, when you're just starting, you see improvement no matter what you do. I'd hazard a guess that he will plateau at his current training behaviors and will likely have to adjust down the road. I personally only did steady state work for my first couple of months doing triathlon along with a lot of non-traditional types of training (mostly because I didn't know what I was doing) but still saw a lot of gains. Those tapered off and I ended up doing more and more of the type of work that everyone else is doing.

I've been doing this triathlon thing for almost two years now, and every time I've seen something that triathletes do that I've said, "well I'll never do that" I've ended up doing it eventually as I've progressed.

And intervals are fun, and steady state workouts are boring...so there's that.


2016-01-29 1:29 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by Left Brain

Besides choosing your parents well, it depends on what you mean by "fast".   It's not the same as "faster".  We can all get "faster"......running more is one way.  You say you want to get "very fast"......in fact, you said, "So can someone explain the process of getting very fast without any type of interval training?"  There is no process for that.  You must do intervals to get "very fast".  So does your friend if he ever wants to be.

"Just run more" (tm)

2016-01-29 1:37 PM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by Left Brain

Besides choosing your parents well, it depends on what you mean by "fast".   It's not the same as "faster".  We can all get "faster"......running more is one way.  You say you want to get "very fast"......in fact, you said, "So can someone explain the process of getting very fast without any type of interval training?"  There is no process for that.  You must do intervals to get "very fast".  So does your friend if he ever wants to be.

"Just run more" (tm)

2016-01-29 1:40 PM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

first of all, no where di you friend say he was only running slow.  he may very well be doing plenty of fartlek intervals, which are undefined intervals.  or hill work.  and threshold runs etc.

 

second, I think the majority of people don't run enough to do hard intervals.  I know LB will chime in about junior, and to that I would say the majority of people on here aren't doing the swimming and cycling to compensate as he is.

You have to build the aerobic base and durability to do good speedwork.  When I first started I did plenty of running fast, and it got me hurt.  Now I just finished a run block peaking with a 60 mile week, and not a touch of injury in the last 3 months.  We will see what happens as workouts become race specific, but so far it seems like this has been the most productive "offseason" i've had yet. 

2016-01-29 1:43 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by dmiller5

first of all, no where di you friend say he was only running slow.  he may very well be doing plenty of fartlek intervals, which are undefined intervals.  or hill work.  and threshold runs etc.

 

second, I think the majority of people don't run enough to do hard intervals.  I know LB will chime in about junior, and to that I would say the majority of people on here aren't doing the swimming and cycling to compensate as he is.

You have to build the aerobic base and durability to do good speedwork.  When I first started I did plenty of running fast, and it got me hurt.  Now I just finished a run block peaking with a 60 mile week, and not a touch of injury in the last 3 months.  We will see what happens as workouts become race specific, but so far it seems like this has been the most productive "offseason" i've had yet. 

Dude - you know damn well that swimming and biking have no benefits to running.  Have you not been paying attention? 

2016-01-29 8:24 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by mchadcota2

While I was running yesterday doing some intervals, I remembered something a guy told me. I called this guy to ask him how he was training because he went from beginner to top of the pack in a year. He's 36 years old. Started doing sprints and biking 17-18 mph and running 8:15-8:30 pace and in one year he was biking 23 mph, running 6:20 paces for sprints. Mind boggling to me. So I asked him what kind of speed work he did for running. He said "man I ain't ever done an interval before. I just go out and run whatever pace feels good.(he's a country boy). So my question is, how the heck do you get fast if you're not doing speed work intervals. Can you just go out and run at a comfortable pace, and do it enough that eventually a 6:00 pace feels comfortable? Doesn't make sense at all to me. Made me wonder if I'm wasting my time with speed work. I'm at about a 6:40 pace for sprint races and I've always done speed work. So can someone explain the process of getting very fast without any type of interval training?


I came across an interesting quote recently. . . 'Hard work beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.' In your case, it sounds like talent finally decided to work hard after 36 years. He'll need speed work if he wants to truly tap his full potential.



2016-01-30 5:21 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
I'm going to finally let my personal cat out of the bag. As basically a runner of up to 200 or so meters a clip, I never was big on running. Since triathlon, the majority of my run work is at just below threshold, threshold, and interval pace in some version of reps and repeats etc. Why? I average only 35-45 miles a MONTH and only run easy long pace when necessary. So most of my work is speed work. I am not blazing, but I brought my PR 5k down to 19 minutes in basically a year. That was by a guy who wastraining fast twitch 90% of the time for yearsssss

And like dmiller said, this guy isn't logging exact numbers, for all we know he IS doing fartlek or paces that are speed work for his level

Edited by TJHammer 2016-01-30 5:23 PM
2016-01-30 6:30 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Some measure of natural talent for endurance sports, plus possibly some past athletic background that he is not telling you about that built a foundation for his aerobic engine (I found out once that an AG rival was a former pro cyclist, for example. She was a short, kind of dumpy-looking woman, and you never would have guessed it, until she got on a bike!), plus, as others have said, either he has not yet reached his potential and will need to do more speed work to reach it once he plateaus, or he IS doing speed work but not in a structured way, and it works for him where he is at in his development. Also, no one has mentioned body composition. Maybe he has the right balance of leanness for running and strength for the bike that you, or others in his AG don't. Or a balance of slow and fast-twitch muscle fibers that happens to work out really well for the sprint distance.
2016-02-02 12:19 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by TJHammer I'm going to finally let my personal cat out of the bag. As basically a runner of up to 200 or so meters a clip, I never was big on running. Since triathlon, the majority of my run work is at just below threshold, threshold, and interval pace in some version of reps and repeats etc. Why? I average only 35-45 miles a MONTH and only run easy long pace when necessary. So most of my work is speed work. I am not blazing, but I brought my PR 5k down to 19 minutes in basically a year. That was by a guy who wastraining fast twitch 90% of the time for yearsssss And like dmiller said, this guy isn't logging exact numbers, for all we know he IS doing fartlek or paces that are speed work for his level

Impressive stuff, how are you avoiding being constantly injured?!

2016-02-02 12:46 PM
in reply to: Triathlon_daddy

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

also interesting that your race reports don't reflect you running a 19min 5k..

2016-02-02 2:50 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Could be the guy just runs a lot. When I was 54 I averaged over 60 mikes/week for an entire year. My only fast running was during races. The following year at age 55 I set several local age group course records. Mostly on terrain not suitable for blazing fast PR times, but now 5 years later most of those records still stand. My build to that kind of mileage took several years, but I found the more I ran the faster I got. My average training pace became faster than my race pace from just a couple years before without it even seeming like I was running harder.

Same thing with biking. I just rode lots of miles for many years. Even now within very few rides I can easily maintain 20+.

Could I have been even faster by doing speed work? Probably, but I didn't like doing it and many of my friends hurt themselves by doing it.

I read that logging higher mileage helps make physiological adaptations that benefit the cardio system in ways that may not be obtained otherwise. It's really not possible to log high mileage by running hard all the time. I tended to base my pace off race results and most of my running would be done at 90-120 seconds per mile slower than 5K race pace. So if my race pace was 6:30 the bulk of my training miles were 8:00-8:30. Racing was my speed work and I did a race at least every two weeks, and often more.

For me it was how much could I do without having my body fail. For others it seems they seek ways to do the least they can. One thing most of the popular training plans often fail to mention is the elites are often running 70+ miles weekly just for 5K training. They are getting those physiological adaptations along with doing speed work, but typically the speed component only makes up a small percentage. People would likely freak out in the popular training plans were calling for that much mileage for a 5K, or well in excess of 100 for longer distances. A guy I work with runs 150-180 miles a week in the build for some of his races.

Conversely another guy I work with only does hard runs in training, no easy runs. But he's also a former 2:12 marathoner with a huge number of miles under his belt. He just turned 55 and still runs 5K in sub 17. He did run big mileage in his 20-30s.


2016-02-02 3:10 PM
in reply to: Donskiman

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by Donskiman Could be the guy just runs a lot. When I was 54 I averaged over 60 mikes/week for an entire year. My only fast running was during races. The following year at age 55 I set several local age group course records. Mostly on terrain not suitable for blazing fast PR times, but now 5 years later most of those records still stand. My build to that kind of mileage took several years, but I found the more I ran the faster I got. My average training pace became faster than my race pace from just a couple years before without it even seeming like I was running harder. Same thing with biking. I just rode lots of miles for many years. Even now within very few rides I can easily maintain 20+. Could I have been even faster by doing speed work? Probably, but I didn't like doing it and many of my friends hurt themselves by doing it. I read that logging higher mileage helps make physiological adaptations that benefit the cardio system in ways that may not be obtained otherwise. It's really not possible to log high mileage by running hard all the time. I tended to base my pace off race results and most of my running would be done at 90-120 seconds per mile slower than 5K race pace. So if my race pace was 6:30 the bulk of my training miles were 8:00-8:30. Racing was my speed work and I did a race at least every two weeks, and often more. For me it was how much could I do without having my body fail. For others it seems they seek ways to do the least they can. One thing most of the popular training plans often fail to mention is the elites are often running 70+ miles weekly just for 5K training. They are getting those physiological adaptations along with doing speed work, but typically the speed component only makes up a small percentage. People would likely freak out in the popular training plans were calling for that much mileage for a 5K, or well in excess of 100 for longer distances. A guy I work with runs 150-180 miles a week in the build for some of his races. Conversely another guy I work with only does hard runs in training, no easy runs. But he's also a former 2:12 marathoner with a huge number of miles under his belt. He just turned 55 and still runs 5K in sub 17. He did run big mileage in his 20-30s.

I watch a number of kids who are sub 15:00 5Ker's on the track.  None of them runs over 35 mpw or so, but it's quite a bit of speed and stress in those miles.....easy running is the smallest percentage.  Yes, I realize they are not elite 5K'ers, but I wonder how much of the thousands and thousands of yards of  swimming they do contribute to those physiological cardio adaptations you alluded to, if any.....or what moving to a more run focused training will yield for them.  I also don't think it's a coincidence that many of the kids who finish near the top of our State XC meet have swim backgrounds.

I think what you wrote is largely true........I'm always curious about what the benefits/hinderence of cross training will be on these kids I've been around as they continue with their careers.  Even the college coaches, as we talked to them during the recruiting process, were split.  Some wanted the fast kids who were running the biggest miles......some wanted nothing to do with those kids and wanted the kids who had built quite a bit of speed on relatively few miles. Some wanted them BECAUSE they cross trained, some wouldn't touch those who did.  It made no difference how strong or weak the program at the college was......the opinions were all over the place and VERY deeply rooted and strong.

2016-02-02 5:53 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

I think my thoughts were kind of  touched on by a couple of people, especially by LB but fast really is a relative term.

Ultimately, I think HE answered your question: "How the heck do you get fast if you're not doing speed work intervals?" and it was "Man I ain't ever done an interval before. I just go out and run whatever pace feels good [for a year][yeeehawwwww]." So, that's how he got fast.

BUT that is by your definition of fast, as in fast to you. 

He's very likely not reaching his potential in terms of being his fastest, because no, you wont be your very fastest without a mix, including quality workouts or "speedwork". 

 

In regard to everyone's advice to run more. Yeah, to a certain threshold(and one most people don't exceed before diminishing gains) you WILL get faster by running more. And if you really like running, and have the time to do it, I think it's an excellent way to get you most of the way there. But if you truly want to be your fastest, there are many adaptations you need to make with different types of training stimulus. And then, when speaking specific to triathlon, the overall training load needs to be considered and leveraged. 

2016-02-02 6:01 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Donskiman Could be the guy just runs a lot. When I was 54 I averaged over 60 mikes/week for an entire year. My only fast running was during races. The following year at age 55 I set several local age group course records. Mostly on terrain not suitable for blazing fast PR times, but now 5 years later most of those records still stand. My build to that kind of mileage took several years, but I found the more I ran the faster I got. My average training pace became faster than my race pace from just a couple years before without it even seeming like I was running harder. Same thing with biking. I just rode lots of miles for many years. Even now within very few rides I can easily maintain 20+. Could I have been even faster by doing speed work? Probably, but I didn't like doing it and many of my friends hurt themselves by doing it. I read that logging higher mileage helps make physiological adaptations that benefit the cardio system in ways that may not be obtained otherwise. It's really not possible to log high mileage by running hard all the time. I tended to base my pace off race results and most of my running would be done at 90-120 seconds per mile slower than 5K race pace. So if my race pace was 6:30 the bulk of my training miles were 8:00-8:30. Racing was my speed work and I did a race at least every two weeks, and often more. For me it was how much could I do without having my body fail. For others it seems they seek ways to do the least they can. One thing most of the popular training plans often fail to mention is the elites are often running 70+ miles weekly just for 5K training. They are getting those physiological adaptations along with doing speed work, but typically the speed component only makes up a small percentage. People would likely freak out in the popular training plans were calling for that much mileage for a 5K, or well in excess of 100 for longer distances. A guy I work with runs 150-180 miles a week in the build for some of his races. Conversely another guy I work with only does hard runs in training, no easy runs. But he's also a former 2:12 marathoner with a huge number of miles under his belt. He just turned 55 and still runs 5K in sub 17. He did run big mileage in his 20-30s.

I watch a number of kids who are sub 15:00 5Ker's on the track.  None of them runs over 35 mpw or so, but it's quite a bit of speed and stress in those miles.....easy running is the smallest percentage.  Yes, I realize they are not elite 5K'ers, but I wonder how much of the thousands and thousands of yards of  swimming they do contribute to those physiological cardio adaptations you alluded to, if any.....or what moving to a more run focused training will yield for them.  I also don't think it's a coincidence that many of the kids who finish near the top of our State XC meet have swim backgrounds.

I think what you wrote is largely true........I'm always curious about what the benefits/hinderence of cross training will be on these kids I've been around as they continue with their careers.  Even the college coaches, as we talked to them during the recruiting process, were split.  Some wanted the fast kids who were running the biggest miles......some wanted nothing to do with those kids and wanted the kids who had built quite a bit of speed on relatively few miles. Some wanted them BECAUSE they cross trained, some wouldn't touch those who did.  It made no difference how strong or weak the program at the college was......the opinions were all over the place and VERY deeply rooted and strong.

This is a total side bar but you always reference swimming when you talk about this. What other sports are the lower mile kids using to build their fitness? I would assume the key is simply that the activity contribute to the physiological adaptation and that it be low impact so that you can do more of it. But is there anything else about swimming in particular? 

2016-02-02 6:16 PM
in reply to: Triathlon_daddy

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Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy

Originally posted by TJHammer I'm going to finally let my personal cat out of the bag. As basically a runner of up to 200 or so meters a clip, I never was big on running. Since triathlon, the majority of my run work is at just below threshold, threshold, and interval pace in some version of reps and repeats etc. Why? I average only 35-45 miles a MONTH and only run easy long pace when necessary. So most of my work is speed work. I am not blazing, but I brought my PR 5k down to 19 minutes in basically a year. That was by a guy who wastraining fast twitch 90% of the time for yearsssss And like dmiller said, this guy isn't logging exact numbers, for all we know he IS doing fartlek or paces that are speed work for his level

Impressive stuff, how are you avoiding being constantly injured?!




I do feel like I'm walking a fine line with that, especially since I still weight train. I try to nap alot, get extra rest in, and my diet and supplementation really addresses inflammation and free radical oxidation. I think these areas are often overlooked.

dmiller, you really like bust'n my balls huh? It was a 5k race solo effort. I can't yet run a 19 in tri as of yet. I know you think I am bragging any time I post something on this forum, but I am not. I find guys like yourself etc. who have had continued fast success and progress inspiring. It's why I'm here.
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