Cadence question
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2016-02-03 5:36 AM |
26 | Subject: Cadence question Optimal cadence on tri bike? Is there really such a thing or very dependent on the individual? I've been working a higher cadence on trainer (90+) but seem to put out more power working at lower cadence (@70) and keep HR about the same. Thanks for any guidance. |
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2016-02-03 5:46 AM in reply to: #5165103 |
239 | Subject: RE: Cadence question Optimal cadence is probably in the high 80s - low 90s. I think most of us can put out a higher power at 70ish, but you have to couple that with the fact that you need your legs to be as fresh as possible off the bike. However, there are some pros who ride a low cadence on the bike and run just fine (I think Caroline Steffen or Chrissy Wellington are fairly low), but for us mere mortals, a higher cadence is preferred to keep the stress off our muscles. Additionally, I would play with your gearing a bit. You should be able to find your "ideal" gearing to hold let's say 225w for 60 minutes at a 90 cadence. It takes some trial and error, but mess around with it on your long rides. Nothing else to do during a 2+ hour ride. Just my $0.02. Hope it helps. |
2016-02-03 7:10 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Cadence question Optimal cadence is very dependant on the individual. Learning to ride at a range of cadences is a skill that may be useful as conditions change, ie hill climbing, descents, accelerations.... But in terms of efficiency and durability, your body is pretty good at figuring out the optimal point HR for a given wattage, for a short duration is not a good indicator of what is optimal. Edited by marcag 2016-02-03 7:11 AM |
2016-02-03 7:23 AM in reply to: Jeff B |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Cadence question Cadence is a red herring. Let your cadence fall wherever it does. There is no optimal one fits all solution. It's very individual. Ride a bunch at difference cadences and see which one works for you. |
2016-02-03 8:13 AM in reply to: marcag |
Member 587 | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by marcag Optimal cadence is very dependant on the individual. Learning to ride at a range of cadences is a skill that may be useful as conditions change, ie hill climbing, descents, accelerations.... But in terms of efficiency and durability, your body is pretty good at figuring out the optimal point HR for a given wattage, for a short duration is not a good indicator of what is optimal. This is good advice. Marc has far more knowledge than I do, however I will add that for me personally learning to be able to be comfortable riding many different cadences has been very useful. |
2016-02-03 9:09 AM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by GMAN 19030 Cadence is a red herring. Entered this thread to post specifically this. Good work, GMAN! |
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2016-02-03 9:33 AM in reply to: PRHTri |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by PRHTri Optimal cadence on tri bike? Is there really such a thing or very dependent on the individual? I've been working a higher cadence on trainer (90+) but seem to put out more power working at lower cadence (@70) and keep HR about the same. Thanks for any guidance. It's good to work those high cadence on the trainer some, but don't feel you need to ride at 90 all the time. You should be able to have a smooth pedal stroke right up over 100 to 110, some would say up to 120rpm, but there is no optimal. My cadence is more like 75 to 80 most of the time, I do however pick the cadence up for about a mile before T2 it seems to help my legs transition to the run. |
2016-02-03 9:53 AM in reply to: PRHTri |
Champion 10668 Tacoma, Washington | Subject: RE: Cadence question I remember an interview with the UK 10-mile TT record holder, and being surprised when he said his cadence for the ride was just over 60rpm... Obviously he wasn't getting off the bike and running afterwards, but it's illustrative of adaptation. Do a bunch of rides with transition runs after and see what works best for you. |
2016-02-03 1:07 PM in reply to: briderdt |
409 Durham, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Cadence question I try to keep mine around 90 too. When I'm not looking I think I tend to hover around 85. I like the way it feels so I stick with it. That being said at first most people tend to mash and I think they should train around the beloved 90 mark to find what works best for them. |
2016-02-03 3:26 PM in reply to: PRHTri |
66 | Subject: RE: Cadence question |
2016-02-03 3:44 PM in reply to: 0 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy Read this!! http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/cycling-cadence-in-training-and-racing
The assumption in this was wrong from the start. Bob and Bill are not identical! Everyone is different and therefore everyone ideal cadence will also be different. Furthermore ones own ideal cadence can change over time with your body composition. Read this, gives a method for testing your cadence. http://coachlevi.com/cycling/high-vs-low-cadence-pedaling-speed/ Edited by mike761 2016-02-03 3:51 PM |
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2016-02-03 4:34 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy Read this!! http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/cycling-cadence-in-training-and-racing
The assumption in this was wrong from the start. Bob and Bill are not identical! Everyone is different and therefore everyone ideal cadence will also be different. Furthermore ones own ideal cadence can change over time with your body composition. Read this, gives a method for testing your cadence. http://coachlevi.com/cycling/high-vs-low-cadence-pedaling-speed/ Mike is right. Your body composition in terms of slowtwitch vs fasttwitch will be a major differentiator for what your body will select as natural cadence. Your body knows best what to use. Edited by marcag 2016-02-03 4:35 PM |
2016-02-03 6:25 PM in reply to: marcag |
538 Brooklyn, New York | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy Read this!! http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/cycling-cadence-in-training-and-racing
The assumption in this was wrong from the start. Bob and Bill are not identical! Everyone is different and therefore everyone ideal cadence will also be different. Furthermore ones own ideal cadence can change over time with your body composition. Read this, gives a method for testing your cadence. http://coachlevi.com/cycling/high-vs-low-cadence-pedaling-speed/ Mike is right. Your body composition in terms of slowtwitch vs fasttwitch will be a major differentiator for what your body will select as natural cadence. Your body knows best what to use. This is so true, I came into cycling and tri's from a fast twitch background of training; therefore, fast twitch Type II muscle really tends to lower cadence and push more power, BUT as you all know, there will be an earlier fatigue factor and thus a slowing of performance. In the beginning I had to be very cognizant of this and catch myself slowing cadence and driving too low a gear. It's not always good to let your body find it's "desired" cadence, In triathlon wouldn't being right on the border of low force/low velocity -> low force/high velocity be the key to triathlon endurance and "saving the legs?" |
2016-02-03 6:28 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by PRHTri Optimal cadence on tri bike? Is there really such a thing or very dependent on the individual? I've been working a higher cadence on trainer (90+) but seem to put out more power working at lower cadence (@70) and keep HR about the same. Thanks for any guidance. It's good to work those high cadence on the trainer some, but don't feel you need to ride at 90 all the time. You should be able to have a smooth pedal stroke right up over 100 to 110, some would say up to 120rpm, but there is no optimal. My cadence is more like 75 to 80 most of the time, I do however pick the cadence up for about a mile before T2 it seems to help my legs transition to the run. I would say being comfortable even higher is preferable but would aim for at least 120rpm for smooth pedaling. Shane |
2016-02-03 6:32 PM in reply to: PRHTri |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Cadence question Ride fixed - all your cadence problems will be addressed. Probably want to avoid any major downhills though. Shane |
2016-02-03 6:33 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
538 Brooklyn, New York | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by PRHTri Optimal cadence on tri bike? Is there really such a thing or very dependent on the individual? I've been working a higher cadence on trainer (90+) but seem to put out more power working at lower cadence (@70) and keep HR about the same. Thanks for any guidance. It's good to work those high cadence on the trainer some, but don't feel you need to ride at 90 all the time. You should be able to have a smooth pedal stroke right up over 100 to 110, some would say up to 120rpm, but there is no optimal. My cadence is more like 75 to 80 most of the time, I do however pick the cadence up for about a mile before T2 it seems to help my legs transition to the run. I would say being comfortable even higher is preferable but would aim for at least 120rpm for smooth pedaling. Shane Shane, I get a little bouncy in the saddle over 105ish. Where are you advising to incorporate the 120rpm? |
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2016-02-03 9:53 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon | Subject: RE: Cadence question I have really struggled with this and I'm not sure the "body knows best". I'm probably very far toward the slow-twitch end of the spectrum, plus really lightweight by triathlete standards. Even with a lot of strength training and power work on the bike, it's going to be an uphill battle for me to push the big gears that muscular women who have 30+ pounds on me can push. But my "natural cadence" is a sluggish 75-80 RPM. I can sustain much better power and speed by doing between 90 and 100 RPM in a slightly easier gear (as evidenced by FTP tests). Plus my legs would presumably be in much better shape for the run. 90-99 RPM feels kind of unnatural, and I have to concentrate to maintain it. But when I do, I am faster, both in terms of power and speed on the road. I first discovered this prior to getting a power meter--I occasionally rode with a training partner (who has since left Vietnam) who was a former All-American 10K runner and very competitive cyclist (much stronger than me). Due to injuries, she now completely focuses on cycling. She and I are within an inch and five pounds of each other, similar lean, wiry builds. I noticed that her cadence was much faster than mine; I was only able to keep up when I switched to an easier gear and upped my cadence to match hers. The first time I did that, we were doing a 60 km ride at what was an easy ride for her and pretty much Oly race effort for me. I equaled my best Oly split, and then kept going for another 20 km at that pace. I was tired at the end but not destroyed as I expected, and managed a short brick run after. We were trading the lead regularly, so not entirely a drafting effect, either. In the past, I'd always bought the "listen to your body" mantra, but in the case of someone like me (lightweight, slow twitch) I'm wondering if that leads to suboptimal performance. Edited by Hot Runner 2016-02-03 9:55 PM |
2016-02-03 10:14 PM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by Hot Runner I have really struggled with this and I'm not sure the "body knows best". I'm probably very far toward the slow-twitch end of the spectrum, plus really lightweight by triathlete standards. Even with a lot of strength training and power work on the bike, it's going to be an uphill battle for me to push the big gears that muscular women who have 30+ pounds on me can push. But my "natural cadence" is a sluggish 75-80 RPM. I can sustain much better power and speed by doing between 90 and 100 RPM in a slightly easier gear (as evidenced by FTP tests). Plus my legs would presumably be in much better shape for the run. 90-99 RPM feels kind of unnatural, and I have to concentrate to maintain it. But when I do, I am faster, both in terms of power and speed on the road. I first discovered this prior to getting a power meter--I occasionally rode with a training partner (who has since left Vietnam) who was a former All-American 10K runner and very competitive cyclist (much stronger than me). Due to injuries, she now completely focuses on cycling. She and I are within an inch and five pounds of each other, similar lean, wiry builds. I noticed that her cadence was much faster than mine; I was only able to keep up when I switched to an easier gear and upped my cadence to match hers. The first time I did that, we were doing a 60 km ride at what was an easy ride for her and pretty much Oly race effort for me. I equaled my best Oly split, and then kept going for another 20 km at that pace. I was tired at the end but not destroyed as I expected, and managed a short brick run after. We were trading the lead regularly, so not entirely a drafting effect, either. In the past, I'd always bought the "listen to your body" mantra, but in the case of someone like me (lightweight, slow twitch) I'm wondering if that leads to suboptimal performance. Then stay there. With practice, and training, it'll just be where you ride and the concentration you need will diminish. |
2016-02-04 1:23 AM in reply to: mike761 |
66 | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy The assumption in this was wrong from the start. Bob and Bill are not identical! Everyone is different and therefore everyone ideal cadence will also be different. Furthermore ones own ideal cadence can change over time with your body composition. Read this, gives a method for testing your cadence. http://coachlevi.com/cycling/high-vs-low-cadence-pedaling-speed/Read this!! http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/cycling-cadence-in-training-and-racing
Agree, much better article Mike. Lance Armstrong isn't the best reference though!! |
2016-02-04 4:18 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by Hot Runner I have really struggled with this and I'm not sure the "body knows best". I'm probably very far toward the slow-twitch end of the spectrum, plus really lightweight by triathlete standards. Even with a lot of strength training and power work on the bike, it's going to be an uphill battle for me to push the big gears that muscular women who have 30+ pounds on me can push. But my "natural cadence" is a sluggish 75-80 RPM. I can sustain much better power and speed by doing between 90 and 100 RPM in a slightly easier gear (as evidenced by FTP tests). Plus my legs would presumably be in much better shape for the run. 90-99 RPM feels kind of unnatural, and I have to concentrate to maintain it. But when I do, I am faster, both in terms of power and speed on the road. I first discovered this prior to getting a power meter--I occasionally rode with a training partner (who has since left Vietnam) who was a former All-American 10K runner and very competitive cyclist (much stronger than me). Due to injuries, she now completely focuses on cycling. She and I are within an inch and five pounds of each other, similar lean, wiry builds. I noticed that her cadence was much faster than mine; I was only able to keep up when I switched to an easier gear and upped my cadence to match hers. The first time I did that, we were doing a 60 km ride at what was an easy ride for her and pretty much Oly race effort for me. I equaled my best Oly split, and then kept going for another 20 km at that pace. I was tired at the end but not destroyed as I expected, and managed a short brick run after. We were trading the lead regularly, so not entirely a drafting effect, either. In the past, I'd always bought the "listen to your body" mantra, but in the case of someone like me (lightweight, slow twitch) I'm wondering if that leads to suboptimal performance. Re-read that. Sounds like your body prefers high cadence for a given power level. Ride 3x12' at threshold. Do one at 70rpm, one at 80, one at 90. Which one feels easier ? Edited by marcag 2016-02-04 4:20 AM |
2016-02-04 4:43 AM in reply to: TJHammer |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by TJHammer This is so true, I came into cycling and tri's from a fast twitch background of training; therefore, fast twitch Type II muscle really tends to lower cadence and push more power, BUT as you all know, there will be an earlier fatigue factor and thus a slowing of performance. In the beginning I had to be very cognizant of this and catch myself slowing cadence and driving too low a gear. It's not always good to let your body find it's "desired" cadence, In triathlon wouldn't being right on the border of low force/low velocity -> low force/high velocity be the key to triathlon endurance and "saving the legs?" Yes saving the legs is good, but if you are low ST you might do better by finding the right slow/fast twitch combination. One guy said it best "at a constant power, most people will naturally self select the lowest and most efficient cadence that activates a minimal amount of fast twitch muscle fibers". Do TTs, do efforts at fixed power, you will naturally find your right cadence. Your optimal cadence is probably found through a few TTs were you are trying to maximize power. Your body will decide which is best. Now coming from a BB background you also know you can manipulate muscle strength and endurance by developing/atrophying type IIa, IIb muscle fibers. In the gym I think you guys do that by number of reps and % of RM ? Some say you can do the same thing by controlling the force you are putting o the pedals, which you can figure out from power and cadence. It's all part of strength training. Some say just go and climb a big hill. |
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2016-02-04 5:45 AM in reply to: marcag |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon | Subject: RE: Cadence question I have done something similar in a workout. In terms of my legs, definitely the higher cadence with easier gearing. My HR is slightly higher at the higher cadence, but there's not a big difference. It's just that the speed feels weird, like I've had too much coffee or something, and I have to focus more to keep power steady than if I crank a harder gear/lower cadence. Hopefully using the PM will help with that. Music with a quick beat also helps. I can tell that while I might be able to pull off a good run after pushing a harder gear and lower cadence for a shorter distance (and, in fact, have done so both in training and racing sprint distance) it would not work for a longer one. I think I just haven't trained enough at a higher cadence to make it second nature, and my low cadence is a bad habit from several years of training in a much harder gear. I had zero background in bike training before getting into tri. When I started tri, I almost always trained solo or with others (guys and bigger women) who outweighed me by a lot and pushed me to ride in a harder gear than what may have been right for my body. That ride I mentioned was probably the first time I'd ridden (outside of a race situation, where I wouldn't have noticed what cadence other women were doing) with someone of a similar weight and body build, had to seriously think about technique, and realized what I was doing wrong! |
2016-02-04 7:04 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by Hot Runner I have really struggled with this and I'm not sure the "body knows best". my "natural cadence" is a sluggish 75-80 RPM. Originally posted by marcag Ride 3x12' at threshold. Do one at 70rpm, one at 80, one at 90. Which one feels easier ? Originally posted by Hot Runner I have done something similar in a workout. In terms of my legs, definitely the higher cadence with easier gearing. My HR is slightly higher at the higher cadence, but there's not a big difference. So when working hard, your body does naturally select a higher cadence which aligns with what you believe is your ST/FT make up. We have come back to GMAN's comment Originally posted by GMAN 19030 Cadence is a red herring. Let your cadence fall wherever it does. Cadence isn't important. What is important is that for a given power a certain force AND cadence needs to be applied. If you wish to put less force for a given power you need more cadence. Your body naturally select the force to be applied and the cadence. When you are noodling around at 90watts there is so little force, that 70 cadence is just fine. Do stuff at threshold and watch what happens. That being said, your coach may analyze and play with your cadence if he is trying to achieve certain things. if your cadence is falling off in a given workout, those may be signs Edited by marcag 2016-02-04 7:07 AM |
2016-02-04 7:50 AM in reply to: TJHammer |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by TJHammer Shane, I get a little bouncy in the saddle over 105ish. Where are you advising to incorporate the 120rpm? There are a few things you can do that may help: 1) Ride fixed - include some short, gradual downhills and get used to spinning faster and faster 2) Spin ups - 2:00 at 100rpm, 1:00 at 110rpm, :30 max spin (without bouncing, low resistance tends to work best) 3) Drop your saddle slightly - bouncing around 105 is often an indication that while you can ride smoothly at 90ish, your saddle might be slightly too high and lowering it a bit can help For the most part (assuming correct saddle height) it is a coordination issues and spending time spinning at or near your max comfortable cadence will bump this up and help smooth out your stroke at all cadences (notice this is not trying to round your pedal stroke). Shane |
2016-02-04 8:27 AM in reply to: marcag |
538 Brooklyn, New York | Subject: RE: Cadence question Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by TJHammer This is so true, I came into cycling and tri's from a fast twitch background of training; therefore, fast twitch Type II muscle really tends to lower cadence and push more power, BUT as you all know, there will be an earlier fatigue factor and thus a slowing of performance. In the beginning I had to be very cognizant of this and catch myself slowing cadence and driving too low a gear. It's not always good to let your body find it's "desired" cadence, In triathlon wouldn't being right on the border of low force/low velocity -> low force/high velocity be the key to triathlon endurance and "saving the legs?" Yes saving the legs is good, but if you are low ST you might do better by finding the right slow/fast twitch combination. One guy said it best "at a constant power, most people will naturally self select the lowest and most efficient cadence that activates a minimal amount of fast twitch muscle fibers". Do TTs, do efforts at fixed power, you will naturally find your right cadence. Your optimal cadence is probably found through a few TTs were you are trying to maximize power. Your body will decide which is best. Now coming from a BB background you also know you can manipulate muscle strength and endurance by developing/atrophying type IIa, IIb muscle fibers. In the gym I think you guys do that by number of reps and % of RM ? Some say you can do the same thing by controlling the force you are putting o the pedals, which you can figure out from power and cadence. It's all part of strength training. Some say just go and climb a big hill. Yes yes yes, my brother had also suggested some TT efforts. Thanks for referencing the Type IIa or b (which for some reason is referenced as x a lot lately), My legs are my genetic strength, so both in bb and on the bike they adapt well. Not sure it's an atrophying effect, it's supposed that the typeIIb can be "converted" so to speak. Atrophy a sacriligious word in the bb world lol I finally started training with a power meter about 3 weeks ago. So, can work more diligently now |
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