Pull buoy swim (Page 2)

Hello!  Sorry I am late to the party.

You have been swimming once a week for the past 2-3 months - I am going to go out on a limb and make the assumption that you are "an adult onset swimmer" and that your sum total of swimming experience is the 2-3 months of "training" that you mentioned.  (I also assume you have done some recreational swimming in the past).

It's not uncommon for newer swimmers to comment on how much easier it is too swim with a pull buoy.  Often times they will make the erroneous assumption that because you are going to often be using a wetsuit that it is OK to rely on the pull buoy to keep your legs up - the wetsuit is going to do the same thing, right? That is tantamount to putting training wheels on your bike.

When used properly, a pull buoy can be a valuable tool.  Unfortunately, a pull buoy can also become a crutch to counter poor technique.  It sounds like the pull buoy is the latter for you right now.  Looking at your duration and distance it appears you are swimming around a 2:30-2:40/100M pace.  That says there is quite a lot of technique "low hanging fruit" that will dramatically help you. The best thing you can do for your swimming is to lose the pull buoy and learn to swim properly - i.e. start with the fundamentals, learn how to keep your body balanced in the water, learn a proper streamline position, learn how to kick properly.  From that progress to actually swimming while keeping your legs from dropping.

Next thing, swimming 2,300 continuous yards is almost a complete waste of your time.  Initially, while you are sorting out your technique, you should be doing intervals of 25 and 50 yards w/15-30" rest depending upon how your technique is.  Once your technique is decent step up to 50 and 100 intervals and the occasional 100-200-100 ladders w/15-20" rest.  Maybe, MAYBE the occasional set of 200's or 100-200-400-200-100 ladders.  Back when I was swimming competitively I was swimming in excess of 350,000 meters per month and we rarely swam anything over 200's.

There is no calculator that will convert a time with a pull buoy to a time without a pull buoy.  If your technique is good, you will be faster without the buoy than with the buoy (the buoy is actually designed to use during pull sets with an ankle band to isolate the arms, when used that way, you have no kick which may cause your legs to drop slightly, the pull buoy prevents that - in this example, the buoy is a tool so you can more effectively do pull sets.  A pull buoy should NOT be used to swim - when that is happening, you are using a crutch).  In your case, I suspect you will be slower without the pull buoy because it is likely a crutch holding your legs up - remove the buoy, your legs drop, drag dramatically increases, and you slow down.  By the way, if you are using the buoy while swimming (not pull sets), you very likely won't go anywhere near the 2,300M you are going with it.  You'll find it MUCH more difficult to swim if the buoy is keeping your legs up for you.

Sorry if I came across as harsh.  There is no shortcut in swimming as it is very technically demanding.  If your technique is poor, you are going to struggle in the water.  Using a pull buoy when you are swimming is simply guaranteeing you will struggle in the water and continue to do so until you learn to swim properly. 

You can avoid all of that by taking 6-8 weeks and learn to swim with proper technique.  The best thing you can do for your swimming is to find a qualified coach/instructor locally that can assist you.  There is NO substitute for eyes on deck.  If there is nobody that you can work with, the next best alternative is to connect with a coach that can do video analysis and go that route.  That method is slower but can also generate results.

Good luck!

Edited to say I read the rest of the thread and I second Suzanne's comment re the BS squad swimmers.  They would be better served learning proper technique to wean them off the pull buoy.

Except there isn't a beginner swimming class in the country I know of that uses a pull buoy to teach proper position in the water.  I never passed out training wheels when I taught people to swim - from 18-month old toddles all the way up to senior citizens.  We started with the fundamentals and we built on that.  Adult onset swimmers are hugely impatient and want to get to "swimming."  All they accomplish is to get in the pool and try to beat the water into submission.  The water almost always wins.

Most adult-onset swimmers would be far better served to ditch the pull buoy and learn to swim properly.  Then, once they have good technique, re-introduce the pull buoy as the tool it was intended to be - to help isolate the arms during pull sets.

We adults often are our own worst enemies because we can overthink simple things.  Learning to swim is a classic example.  Whether the person leaning to swim is a child or an adult really has no bearing on learning to swim.  Every beginning swimmer falls into the category of someone who has "never learned it before" - regardless of age.  When youngsters learn to swim, they often go to a lesson (or ongoing class), are told "Do this." They do it, and they learn to swim.  Learning to swim is no different today than it was 50-years ago - yet adults tend to try and short-cut the "system."  The square foot between an adults ears sometimes gets in the way by suggesting they know better - even though they admit they never learned it before.

I've taught people of all ages to swim for nearly 40-years.  Not once, NEVER have I given a new swimmer a pull-buoy so they could learn to swim.  So in answer to your question, if you are turning to a pull-buoy thinking it will improve your technique or body position, you are on a mis-guided path.  That approach is akin to giving someone with pneumonia some cough syrup - it is treating a symptom, not addressing the problem.

What's the intended purpose of the pull-buoy?  When a swimmer is doing pull sets - meaning no kick - they should be using an ankle band to minimize their kick.  They should also be using paddles, not to increase strength as many believe, but to provide feedback on proper technique.  In the perfect world, the swimmer's technique continues to be good enough while doing pull sets to prevent the legs from dropping (yes it CAN be done).  However, many swimmers experience a slight leg drop when they're doing pull sets and the pull-buoy helps prevent this.  Note the full, true name of the tool - PULL-buoy.

The short answer is "NO."

Freestyle (specifically talking about 'Front Crawl') is a "circular" stroke in that everything about freestyle effects everything else.  You can't have a good pull if you don't have a good catch; you can't have a good catch if you don't have a good entry; you can't have a good entry if you don't have a good recovery; you can't have a good recovery without a good release; and you can't have a good release without a good pull.  Everything impacts everything else.  On top of that, you aren't going to have a good entry/catch/pull if you don't have proper body rotation.  You likely won't have good body rotation if you don't have a good and properly timed kick.  EVERYTHING impacts everything else in freestyle.  ALL of that is built upon the foundation of swimming fundamentals - balance, streamline, proper kick and breathing.  VERY few adult onset swimmers take the time to learn the fundamentals - saying they don't have time, or it's silly.  Consequently they struggle with the swim and never reach their potential in the water.  Worse, they are sabotaging any race day effort before the race even begins.

Nope!

"Perfect" technique, including perfect position is somewhat of a moving target.  There are conflicting views on what constitutes "perfect" technique; largely because so-called perfect technique is somewhat dependent upon the context in which the swimmer is competing.  Is it a 100M race?  A 1,500M race?  A 2.4-mile IM swim?  All of those races have different goals and are going to necessarily have a slightly different stroke.  The 100 is an all-out sprint - that swimmer will likely be anaerobic within a couple strokes of hitting the water and that race will be over in well under a minute.  While the IM swim is all about economy of motion and conservation of energy.  The 100 you are going to be in a nice wide lane all by yourself, the water will be very smooth and the pool will likely have big gutters to keep the water smooth; whereas the IM swim you will probably be in an open body of water that may be VERY rough, and you may be swimming with a couple thousand of your closest friends.

All of those differing strokes however, share some common characteristics - namely good fundamentals, balanced reasonably streamlined position, early vertical forearm, body rotation, etc.  That is where proper freestyle swimming begins.  Learning fundamentals; then learning a strong, smooth, efficient stroke that can be quickly modified for the race conditions at hand.

The real travesty among triathlete's is they often think they can go to YouTube, watch a few videos and they will "learn" to swim proper technique.  Or they read a blog post from a very successful triathlon coach that seems to support their rationalization for short-cutting the system.  Unfortunately their quest for improvement often begins with Sun Yang video's as they think, "He is the 1,500 World Record holder so I will just learn to swim like he does" instead of going to fundamentals and building upon those fundamentals (never mind that Sun Yang has TERRIBLE overall technique and mere mortal swimmers simply cannot do what he does).  When the Sun Yang video's don't work for them, they turn to some other elite, world class swimmer that is equally out of their league and probably should not be directly emulated, at least until they have built the fundamental foundation upon which they can build proper technique.

Learning proper technique is an on-going process that never truly ends.  There are conflicting goals as you learn proper technique.  The dirty little secret is that technique and swim fitness are two sides of the same coin.  You can't truly have one without the other and that presents a dichotomy that's difficult and time consuming to reconcile.  I don't want to make it sound like it is overly difficult or impossible to learn to swim with proper technique.  Indeed, if done correctly, learning to swim with proper technique is relatively easy.  As you learn proper technique and begin to swim with that proper technique you begin to build swim fitness based upon proper technique.  As your fitness improves, your technique will improve and as that happens, you fitness will improve and so on.

The BEST thing you or anyone else struggling with the swim can do is find a qualified coach/instructor that can help you learn the fundamentals and build proper technique upon those fundamentals.  A coach/instructor on deck is far and away the best option.  Absent that, a qualified coach that can do a video analysis will provide results, albeit more slowly.  A Master's program with a good coach on deck MAY be helpful, however my experience is that most Master's programs don't have much more than someone writing basic workouts.  That isn't to say all Master's programs are that way, indeed there are a few that are spectacular assets for a triathlete, it's just those programs are the exception, not the rule.

I know, that's a pretty long response to a couple of seemingly simple questions.  Good luck!

Hey Jeff,

It isn't so much that I don't believe a strong pull won't help your position (or anyone else's).  This is kind of the "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" debate.  I am of the mind that proper position in the water - balance and streamline - are the starting point.  Certainly going faster in the water may help raise the legs and achieve better overall balance in the water.  However, if a swimmer has very poor fundamentals, fast will not be part of the equation.  The simple physical reality is that you, or anybody else, simply cannot generate enough propulsive force on the water to overcome excessive drag generated by dropping legs - PERIOD!  Those swimmers often turn to a pull-buoy crutch instead of taking the time to learn fundamentals and eliminate the need for the crutch in the first place.

I'm absolutely fine with agreeing to agreeably disagree.  I don't for a moment believe that my way is the only way. Indeed Brett Sutton allows and even encourages "his" athletes to do things in the water I would never advocate - clearly nobody can question his results.  I am a fan of adopting the Maffetone Method for run training which is very controversial and likely an approach that many would choose not to follow.  I am fine with that too.

If using a pull-buoy during the swim WHILE an athlete is learning proper technique will get that athlete into the pool, then I am fine with that for a reasonable period of time - like a couple weeks.  At the end of the day, swimming is a sport built upon the foundation of strong fundamentals and proper technique.  Technique ultimately will trump everything else in the water.  You can put in hundred's of thousand's of yards/meters per month and if your technique is poor you are wasting your time and likely will never reach your potential.

Finally, I don't know that I agree with your quote. especially in the context of the average age-group triathlete.  I think the biggest obstacle age-group triathletes face is reducing drag in the water followed closely by mastery of ALL of the fundamentals - balance, streamline, breathing, kicking.  Saying "the biggest culprit in swimming is the pull" discounts the importance of everything else.  For example, if you don't have an effective catch, you won't have a strong pull.  Sorry!  Ain't gonna happen.  If you don't have a proper entry and extension, you won't be able to have an effective catch.  If you don't have proper body rotation, you won't have any of that.  How is the pull suddenly the biggest culprit?  Proper overall technique, including position in the water, is the biggest culprit.

Anyway, you are an adult and you live in the United States so you are pretty much free to do whatever you choose.  If you are happy with the results you have gotten, then by all means, continue to do as you have been doing.

You quoted him, but when put to use you switched out "effective" with "stronger". They're not the same thing. What I've seen and Interpreted from TJ's posts over the years here is very much like what Scott is saying even though they use a little different points of view in describing it.

LOL.  We had some drop-in visitors at our masters workout this morning.  Our head coach was explaining to them how there's a workout posted that most folks follow, but finished with, "But they're adult masters swimmers, and sometimes they just do what they want to, and that's OK".

Sheila Taormina told me last year that I was the only triathlete she knew who never used a pull buoy  I happen to dislike the things, but at the same time I use my snorkel a lot more than other folks and get chided for that at times. 

I also use my fins a lot on long butterfly sets: One of my coaches encouraged me to do it because it would let me swim longer fly sets before my mechanics broke down due to fatigue.  I know I can't wear them in meets, but they certainly are beneficial in my training.  

In the grand scheme of things, there are lots more important issues than whether or not someone wants to use a pull buoy.  

Mark

Think the first two paragraphs could make a good tl/dr.