Pull buoy swim

2016-04-12 9:27 AM

in reply to: 0

Expert

2852

Pfafftown, NC

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Ummmm...........sort of.

You could pretty much time yourself in a wetsuit and THAT would mimic the PB swim..........but, PB v. no PB is not do-able.

I started swimming last August, and I used the PB a LOT (I mean.....almost all the time, starting out). I weaned myself off of it, to where my short sessions are 2500 SCY and I occasionally swim over 3K SCY, now (3X/wk). I use the PB, now, only when the workout call for it. BUT..........it was unsettling, starting to wean off of it.

Unless you can swim the 1500M without the PB, I wouldn't try the OLY distance, yet. Just my .02.

Edited by nc452010 2016-04-12 9:27 AM

axteraa

2016-04-12 10:07 AM

in reply to: andersyanike

Elite

7783

PEI, Canada

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by andersyanike I have been swimming once a week for the past 2-3 months, and the last month I have been swimming the whole time with a pull buoy to get comfortable in the water, work on breathing and upper body form. For these pull buoy workout I have been going 2300m with one or no breaks in between, approx one hour total. The workouts are not easy, but they're definitely not hard. I am also biking an hour each week and running 10-15 miles per week. Is it safe to say that I could handle a 1500m swim at my current fitness level? Also, is there a swimming calculator where you can enter your time using a pull buoy and have it estimate your time without a pull buoy? Thanks!

There is no such calculator. Some people are faster with a pull buoy, some people are slower.

2016-04-12 10:38 AM

in reply to: axteraa

Member

1748

Exton, PA

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by axteraa

There is no such calculator. Some people are faster with a pull buoy, some people are slower.

Some people who get used to swimming with a pull buoy sink when you take it away! 2300m with a PB might mean 200m without.

Start losing the PB now, you should only use it about 10% of the time.

Also start doing short sets and make them hurt, that's how you get better. Check out the "post your last swim" post to get an idea of workouts.

AdventureBear

2016-04-12 10:51 AM

in reply to: #5176718

Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Absolutely no guarantee you can swim any distance without it. I'd go cold turkey in the pull bouy, do short repeats, take some lessons. The sinner you get rid of it the better you'll be prepared for your race. Do not swim the race until you've you've swum the distance with whatever you plan to use on race day. If it's hot it could be no wetsuits alowwed

RedCorvette

2016-04-12 1:41 PM

in reply to: AdventureBear

Champion

7036

Sarasota, FL

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by AdventureBear Absolutely no guarantee you can swim any distance without it. I'd go cold turkey in the pull bouy, do short repeats, take some lessons. The sinner you get rid of it the better you'll be prepared for your race. Do not swim the race until you've you've swum the distance with whatever you plan to use on race day. If it's hot it could be no wetsuits alowwed

That's pretty much what I think about pull buoys too...

Mark

My Training Log My Race Log

Sidney Porter

2016-04-13 8:28 AM

in reply to: #5176757

631

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

An hour of swimming and an hour of biking per week seems low for the oly and out of balance with the 15 miles you run. There are free training plans on this site.

Why oly? start with a sprint

I agree get rid of the bouy it should not be used all the time. If you are new to swimming I recommend getting some instruction. Swimming continously for an hour is not the best use of the hour as others have said

Burchib

2016-04-13 8:54 AM

in reply to: andersyanike

249

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

I'm 57 and I have been swimming for 2 years. Meaning, no swimming at all before I was 55. I'm self taught, and yes, I realize I could be better with lessons, but I have spent hours watching videos, and that is just the way I am. I also live in a northern climate. The reason I mention this is that even in July, wetsuits are common. Over time, I have heard basically, that for the most part, pull buoys are not good, that they deceive you into thinking you are a better swimmer than you are. I am actually trying to follow that advice and wean myself off mine. Right now, I can swim 250 yards without one. I can swim 1200 yards with one. Big difference. When I swim with the PB, my times in 1200 yards are 1:50/100. My time in 250 without one is 2:00.

I think this whole thing comes down to what you want to accomplish. I have no fear of putting on my wetsuit and doing a half mile swim in a triathlon. I don't kick much either on purpose, as it helps on the bike. I can do this at a pace of 1:50/100. Am I going to put myself into a situation where I have to swim a half mile without my wetsuit? Not right now. I am going to keep working on weaning myself off the PB, but for the reason that the stronger I get without it, the faster I will be in my wetsuit

My workouts now are about 50% PB, 50% without. I will keep pushing that % higher without. I don't have a desire or need to get in the pool at 57 and swim 2000 yards without a PB. It doesn't fit into my plan. I also run a lot of events and do duathlons.

The PB has really really helped me learn my technique in catch, pull, recovery and stroke timing. So, my .02 is that it is either really good, or not so good, depending on what events and what distance and what strategy you want to map out. If I lived in a climate where wetsuits weren't allowed, I'd ban myself for all use of it other than to evaluate technique once in awhile.

2016-04-13 9:03 AM

in reply to: Burchib

Expert

2852

Pfafftown, NC

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by Burchib

I'm 57 and I have been swimming for 2 years. Meaning, no swimming at all before I was 55. I'm self taught, and yes, I realize I could be better with lessons, but I have spent hours watching videos, and that is just the way I am. I also live in a northern climate. The reason I mention this is that even in July, wetsuits are common. Over time, I have heard basically, that for the most part, pull buoys are not good, that they deceive you into thinking you are a better swimmer than you are. I am actually trying to follow that advice and wean myself off mine. Right now, I can swim 250 yards without one. I can swim 1200 yards with one. Big difference. When I swim with the PB, my times in 1200 yards are 1:50/100. My time in 250 without one is 2:00.

I think this whole thing comes down to what you want to accomplish. I have no fear of putting on my wetsuit and doing a half mile swim in a triathlon. I don't kick much either on purpose, as it helps on the bike. I can do this at a pace of 1:50/100. Am I going to put myself into a situation where I have to swim a half mile without my wetsuit? Not right now. I am going to keep working on weaning myself off the PB, but for the reason that the stronger I get without it, the faster I will be in my wetsuit

^^That is almost exactly my path. I only use a PB, now, when the workout (Masters) calls for it. But, there was a time not that long ago when I used it almost 100% of the time. There's at least one accomplished Tri coach who knows where you and I came from and what the PB did to help. I can swim a mile (I stopped at a mile, thinking going further served no purpose) without it, now. But, 6 mos. ago, I couldn't swim 300yds without it.

2016-04-13 9:18 AM

in reply to: Burchib

Member

1748

Exton, PA

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by Burchib

, my times in 1200 yards are 1:50/100. My time in 250 without one is 2:00.

250 in 2:00 is really good, I assume that's not what you meant.

Using the PB so much is because you are impatient and learned to swim the wrong way. Body position in the water is the first and most basic thing to learn. You skipped this and used the PB to put your body in a better position. Its like never taking the training wheels off your bike.

2016-04-13 9:21 AM

in reply to: 0

Expert

2852

Pfafftown, NC

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by Burchib

, my times in 1200 yards are 1:50/100. My time in 250 without one is 2:00.

Except that you do (end up) taking the training wheels off.

NOT using the PB is like trying to learn to ride the bike...........without the training wheels. That would be a more fair correlative.

Edited by nc452010 2016-04-13 9:22 AM

2016-04-13 9:35 AM

in reply to: nc452010

Member

1748

Exton, PA

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by nc452010

Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by Burchib

, my times in 1200 yards are 1:50/100. My time in 250 without one is 2:00.

Except that you do (end up) taking the training wheels off.

NOT using the PB is like trying to learn to ride the bike...........without the training wheels. That would be a more fair correlative.

Not really.

Training wheels help little kids learn balance and there form on the bike is good when they take the wheels off.

A PB prevents the non-swimmer from learning the correct form and when you take is away as you have already admitted you are back to square one. PB's are for people who already swim well to work with, to help perfect their pull.

brucemorgan

2016-04-13 9:52 AM

in reply to: 0

Master

2406

Bellevue, WA

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by mike761

Training wheels help little kids learn balance and there form on the bike is good when they take the wheels off. A PB prevents the non-swimmer from learning the correct form and when you take is away as you have already admitted you are back to square one. PB's are for people who already swim well to work with, to help perfect their pull.

Came here to post essentially that. For good swimmer, a pull buoy is a useful training aid. For a beginning swimmer, a pull buoy is much more likely to be a crutch that prevents learning necessary skills.

I am a reformed pull buoy addict. I loved the feeling of gliding I can get with the PB, and I swim much faster with one. Plus I sort of hate kicking a lot. Also my theory was that the wetsuit is going to lift my legs anyway, so a PB sort of simulates that, right? Oh the stories we addicts tell ourselves to justify our addiction!

These days I limit my use of a PB to a set like 1x50 kickboard, 1x50 PB, 3x50 free (a lap of kickboard to work on the legs, a lap of PB to work on the arms, then 3 laps of freestyle). Then repeat 4 times for a 1000 yard total. I have totally given up the hour-long PB swims I used to do.

Edited by brucemorgan 2016-04-13 9:53 AM

2016-04-13 10:00 AM

in reply to: 0

Expert

2852

Pfafftown, NC

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

No. I have not admitted that you are back to square one when you take it away. In fact, it helped me get to whatever step I'm at FROM step 1.

I don't care to debate with someone who knows nothing about being an AOS. I'm here, telling you, that the PB helped straighten the learning curve for me. I don't really care how someone who grew up swimming did it. That ship had sailed (for me). As a 51yo, I didn't care to join adult swim classes. Call me crazy. I swam with the PB for a while, then I took it away. It wasn't rocket science. My swim workouts are now 2500-3200yds. I might use a PB for 2-300 yds of that.

I have no issues swimming without it, now. But, I attribute that to swimming with it.....for a while. I was able to swim longer workouts, with it (as I think most AOS would benefit).

Here's the article I referenced, earlier.

https://trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/

Edited by nc452010 2016-04-13 10:02 AM

Hook'em

2016-04-13 10:01 AM

in reply to: mike761

Deep in the Heart of Texas

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by nc452010

Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by Burchib , my times in 1200 yards are 1:50/100. My time in 250 without one is 2:00.

250 in 2:00 is really good, I assume that's not what you meant. Using the PB so much is because you are impatient and learned to swim the wrong way. Body position in the water is the first and most basic thing to learn. You skipped this and used the PB to put your body in a better position. Its like never taking the training wheels off your bike.

Except that you do (end up) taking the training wheels off. NOT using the PB is like trying to learn to ride the bike...........without the training wheels. That would be a more fair correlative.

Not really. Training wheels help little kids learn balance and there form on the bike is good when they take the wheels off. A PB prevents the non-swimmer from learning the correct form and when you take is away as you have already admitted you are back to square one. PB's are for people who already swim well to work with, to help perfect their pull.

I have to disagree. Training wheels allow kids to ride bikes without learning how to balance (they tip back an forth without the need to keep the bike upright), much like pull buoys.

If I had it to do over again, I would never put training wheels on a kids bike. It is much better to start with a balance bike (no pedals or training wheels) for kids to learn balance.

Using pull buoys for balance allows swimmers to swim without learning proper balance.

My Training Log My Race Log

Burchib

2016-04-13 10:01 AM

in reply to: mike761

249

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

You are correct. Sorry. I meant that my time per 100 without PB was 2:00
I would have to respectfully disagree with you on the part about the training wheels. The PB allowed me to be very technical and learn technique without floundering. If I wasn't patient, I would have quit long ago and stuck with Duathlons and half marathons

Now, I am applying that to swimming without one. If I had not started out with a PB, I would have a lot more bad habits than I do now.
Some people say that you shouldn't even use a kick board or fins to practice kick drills or one armed pull drills on your side. I don't use fins, but I use a kick board.
PB's, kick boards, fins, even a swim coach all have one thing in common: to help you swim better and more efficiently. The key is knowing when to use all of them, and for how much time.

Burchib

2016-04-13 10:21 AM

in reply to: Burchib

249

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

One last point to somewhat echo a previous post. All of my input needs to be filtered or evaluated as you look at a 57 year old swimmer who started at age 55. I think this gets lost in the debate. If I had started swimming when I was 10 years old, my views would undoubtedly be much different. My son is an excellent swimmer, and he can cruise through the swim portion of a sprint triathlon in about 5 minutes, give or take. He did not learn the way I did. He did not use a PB at all. He almost never wears a wetsuit....different strategies for different times, and different ages.

My Training Log My Race Log

Sidney Porter

2016-04-13 11:18 AM

in reply to: #5176718

631

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

As a AOS who has been self taught for 2 years and is stuck at 2:00 per 100 but can pull for an hour with a pool bouy. I bet there is low hang fruit that could be identified pretty easily and you could focus on that. My assumption is you legs are sinking. Which there are typically 4 or 5 root causes if yoylu ID (or get someone else to id) you could probably improve it in 4 or 5 sessions http://www.swimsmooth.com/swimming-balance.html

2016-04-13 1:53 PM

in reply to: Burchib

Member

1748

Exton, PA

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by Burchib

One last point to somewhat echo a previous post. All of my input needs to be filtered or evaluated as you look at a 57 year old swimmer who started at age 55. I think this gets lost in the debate. If I had started swimming when I was 10 years old, my views would undoubtedly be much different. My son is an excellent swimmer, and he can cruise through the swim portion of a sprint triathlon in about 5 minutes, give or take. He did not learn the way I did. He did not use a PB at all. He almost never wears a wetsuit....different strategies for different times, and different ages.

I ran a program and taught for 11 years. Honestly the main difference between kids learning to swim and adults is mental. Kids will listen to what you say, trust you and do it. Adults will rationalize doing things the wrong way and resist you a lot more than most kids(just like their doing in this thread). Kids also accept that it may take them 3 or 4 months to learn the stroke property, where adults( especially triathletes) are on a time schedule which is usually ridiculously short so they can get back to their training schedule.

If you find a good instructor, don't worry about distance you are swimming for a couple months they can fix you body position teach you the stroke properly and in 6 months to a year you will better then you ever believed you could be.

Yes there can be issues with adults learning to swim such as injuries and range of motion, but for the most part its mental. Any physical issues can usually be worked with, there is not one I can think of the I would use a Pull Buoy to help resolve.

2016-04-13 2:42 PM

in reply to: 0

Expert

2852

Pfafftown, NC

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by mike761

I agree with what you said about children and adults. I'm a former PGA Teaching Professional.

I won't argue with you re: the PB. You can argue with Brett Sutton.

I didn't use the PB to RESOLVE anything. I used it to allow me to swim enough ydg, to develop a strong enough pull to where I can now swim (_______). I don't worry about distances anymore and I only use the PB when our masters workout calls for it. I don't expect anyone who swam as a child (competitively) to understand what I'm talking about. It's as foreign to those folks as not being able to work a golf shot is, to me.

Edited by nc452010 2016-04-13 2:47 PM

AdventureBear

2016-04-13 4:19 PM

in reply to: 0

Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by RedCorvette

That's pretty much what I think about pull buoys too...

Mark

Never been one to hold my tongue...

the argument going on in this thread though is silly. There are people who used the PB excluseivly and weaned of concluding "PB works". Others used PB and feel lit delayed their progress saying "PB doesn't work". It's true for each party that said it.

My personal thought is that if you are currently using a PB to swim, find a good instructor who can speed up your learning curve...that' goes for BS squad as well. I'd be happy to work with his swimmers he's got using a pull bouy.

I'm a strong proponent also of uncovering errors so that you can fix them...that's how you improve the fastest. Without a good instructor it can be difficult though. If someone wiht no access to an instructor wants to use a PB to enable them to swim a mile, go for it.

But don't enter a race thinking you can swim, and don't expect that hard earned pull to help you a lot until you eventually figure out how to balance.

If you enjoy it go for it. if it's good for your health because it gets your heart beating and your muscles working and you feel awesome afterwards, go for it. But even better to find someone who can help speed up your learning so you have OPTIONS on what to do and when you want to do it.

Edited by AdventureBear 2016-04-13 4:20 PM

2016-04-13 8:03 PM

in reply to: 0

Expert

2852

Pfafftown, NC

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Deleted

Edited by nc452010 2016-04-13 8:04 PM

TriMike

2016-04-15 1:52 PM

in reply to: mike761

Extreme Veteran

1234

West Michigan

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by Burchib One last point to somewhat echo a previous post. All of my input needs to be filtered or evaluated as you look at a 57 year old swimmer who started at age 55. I think this gets lost in the debate. If I had started swimming when I was 10 years old, my views would undoubtedly be much different. My son is an excellent swimmer, and he can cruise through the swim portion of a sprint triathlon in about 5 minutes, give or take. He did not learn the way I did. He did not use a PB at all. He almost never wears a wetsuit....different strategies for different times, and different ages.

I ran a program and taught for 11 years. Honestly the main difference between kids learning to swim and adults is mental. Kids will listen to what you say, trust you and do it. Adults will rationalize doing things the wrong way and resist you a lot more than most kids(just like their doing in this thread). Kids also accept that it may take them 3 or 4 months to learn the stroke property, where adults( especially triathletes) are on a time schedule which is usually ridiculously short so they can get back to their training schedule. If you find a good instructor, don't worry about distance you are swimming for a couple months they can fix you body position teach you the stroke properly and in 6 months to a year you will better then you ever believed you could be. Yes there can be issues with adults learning to swim such as injuries and range of motion, but for the most part its mental. Any physical issues can usually be worked with, there is not one I can think of the I would use a Pull Buoy to help resolve.

Slight hijack to the thread. I'm in need of analysis of my body position and kick yet I'm not interested in masters classes doing 2,500-3,000 yard workouts. Is that unreasonable to ask of a prospective coach? That I'm more interested in their analysis and some pool time enough to learn the drills that I'll need to work on myself?

How does one find a swim coach in their areas? Do pools and YMCA's pass along coaching info?

Thank you.

RedCorvette

2016-04-16 6:12 AM

in reply to: TriMike

Champion

7036

Sarasota, FL

Subject: RE: Pull buoy swim

Sounds like what you are looking for is a private lesson to get an analysis of your stroke.

I'd suggest you start out by calling your local YMCA or other facilities that have pools or swim programs. Just keep asking around. A lot of coaches depend on word of mouth references.

Another option would be to take a video of yourself and post it here for feedback.

Mark