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Please tell me this gets easier (swimming)
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 2007-01-18 7:00 PM |
Expert 1030   Miller Place, Long Island |  Subject: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming)Last week, I started really working on swimming technique, I mean I have always said I was working on technique, but all along, I was practicing the wrong technique. I got turned on to Total Immersion swimming by a close friend of mine who has done a handful of IMs and has take me under his wing. I really trust his opinion, guidance and support. We went to the pool together and I quickly learned from watching him and me (on video) that I needed some vast improvements. We decided that it would be best for me to work on a few little things at a time. So for now, I am focusing on my entry and hip rotation. I went to the pool again on Tuesday and again tonight (Thursday) and I am finding this very, very frustrating. I am actually swimming slower now than ever (just when I thought that wasn't possible). I find myself getting tired faster and reverting back when fatigue starts to set in. I mean, I know TI is good, I know my friend is right and I know that others have had success. AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! Just a few weeks ago I swam 4250 yards nonstop with my "old" technique and I gotta be honest, I don't think I would be able to do that again now. Will this get easier? Have others had similar experiences? Is it something I just have to deal with for now and watch it pay off later? Edited by mscotthall 2007-01-18 7:00 PM |
| 2007-01-18 7:12 PM in reply to: #660099 |
Extreme Veteran 492 Home port | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) Coming from a competitive swimmer of 34 years, yes it does. Just remember you are learning how to do something from scratch, while at the same time, trying to unlearn all of your bad habits! Hopefully not 34 years of habits like me. I know that swimming speed and endurance is mostly technique. You will discover this very soon, believe me. The whole idea of total immersion is fishlike swimming. I mean by rotating your hips and having a very long stroke, you take up less space in the water(hydro-dynamic). Take a second to think about how all fast fish are shaped like a torpedo! Over the last 5 years I have re-taught myself to swim like this. I take less strokes, and use much less energy. I know it will work for you, if you stick to it. Do you want to be like most people and just swim 4000 yards with poor technique just to brag, and all the while you never get any better? Or would you rather be a stronger swimmer and spend 1/2 the time in the pool while improving?? |
| 2007-01-18 7:13 PM in reply to: #660099 |
Elite 2796  Texas | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) I learned using TI, but I didn't have any existing technique to deconstruct when I started with the drills. Part of the problem may be you have some residual stroke mechanics from the way you are used to swimming that don't flow with the TI drills. And, TI in and of itself doesn't build speed IMO. It builds efficiency first. My personal experience (over two years now) with TI has been good. Once I became balanced and more or less energy efficient (I never get tired swimming at a zone 2 effort), I went to a non-TI swim coach and she worked on my hand speed and kick. I'm faster than I was (2:30's per 100 yards for my first season sprints, 1:30's per 100 yards for my 1/2 IM last season). And most importantly, I feel comfortable in the water. ETA: and yes, it gets easier. Edited by Bill 2007-01-18 7:15 PM |
| 2007-01-18 9:03 PM in reply to: #660099 |
Veteran 279 Tucson, AZ | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) TI is all about the drills. Do them until they get boring... and keep doing them. They should help you unlearn whatever bad habits you have. |
| 2007-01-18 10:29 PM in reply to: #660099 |
Expert 634 Toronto | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) How long did it take you to complete the 4250 yards using your old technique. If it's reasonable and you aren't completely exhausted when you're doing I would leave it alone and start prepping for an IM!
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| 2007-01-19 9:51 AM in reply to: #660099 |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) There is a reason why my gym beginner tri program spends 2 hours a week together training and 1 hour a week of that is in the pool. Its all about techique and the better you get at it the easier it will be. I am amazed how if I am able to get into a fish like grove I can more just as fast as I do when I try to turn over my stroke as fast as possible. It really is amazing. |
| 2007-01-19 10:08 AM in reply to: #660099 |
Lethbridge, Alberta Bronze member | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) I've been swimming for about 2 years and getting some kind of group coaching or lessons the whole time, including masters for almost a year now. Every time I think I'm starting to know what I'm doing, a coach will start me on another drill that almost kills me. I feel like my stroke and form has been totally taken apart several times, and each time it starts out again feeling very awkward. I keep getting faster though there's still a long way to go. |
| 2007-01-19 10:17 AM in reply to: #660099 |
| Master 1384 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) It does get easier. Personally, I have taken only one clinic (which helped a lot). Then just last week I started a group class that will last 12 weeks (one every Friday). Just the first night's drills alone made a huge difference in the water. Remember there are a number of different ways of teaching as well as stroke techniques. I have studied TI and I take everything with a grain of salt. Learn what you can but don't take things too literally (at least not for now). I used to get frustrated the same way. Learn a little then leave it alone for a bit. Improve on it for a few weeks or more if you feel pressured. Yes, you will slow down at times but when you finally "get it" you will "feel it" and see it in your improved time. Take your time, be patient. I will doubt I will ever win a race but I know from my slow times, I can certainly improve A LOT! I know there are many out there that could improve much more int the two years I've been doing this but I'm doing this for the fun and health of it. If I stop enjoying this I will stop doing this. It's expensive and very time consuming. Have fun learning. Edited by cobannero 2007-01-19 10:19 AM |
| 2007-01-19 11:22 AM in reply to: #660099 |
Extreme Veteran 309 | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) Thanks for your post. I am having the same experience. I spent a year learning how to swim badly, and now I am having to unlearn what I worked on. My elbows were not staying up. I was putting my hand in the water at the catch way too late, my kick still stinks, etc. I have accepted that my times will be lousy while I am developing new muscle memory. I also believe that it will be worth it. Just a little bit of time in the pool earlier this week showed me that. I was able to go longer without any difficulty. Remember, if you are going so fast that you revert back to old technique, slow down. I also have to talk myself through the stroke. Catch with relaxed hands, pull without crossing midline, complete the stroke, fingertip drag. You get the idea. Stick with it. I bet you find that you are more efficient in the water, thus enabling you to go longer distances. Good Luck! |
| 2007-01-19 7:37 PM in reply to: #660099 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) I went to the pool again on Tuesday and again tonight (Thursday) and I am finding this very, very frustrating. I am actually swimming slower now than ever (just when I thought that wasn't possible). I find myself getting tired faster and reverting back when fatigue starts to set in. My brother trains hunting dogs. My mother and I were astounded when his 10 week old puppy made 2 nearly perfect retrieves in the back yard. Part of the 'trick' is that he was capitalizing on what the puppy already does well. The puppy wanted to be up on the porch with my brother. SO does my brother go out in the yard, throw the dummy to the porch and expect the puppy to leave the porch and bring it to him? No, he stands on the porch, throws the dummy and the puppy leaps into action. He runs out, gets the dummy, then realizes he'd rather be on the porch and brings the dummy back. Bingo, Perfect Retrieve! "Do another one!" we begged him, but he wouldn't. He know that if he made that puppy tired, the puppy would learn that it's OK to be sloppy. So my brother was doing 2 things in training that brand new puppy to perform. 1) He was taking advantage of what the puppy already does well (chases things) and 2) He stopped before the puppy made mistakes. That puppy is now 4 months old making hunting retrieves better than most adult dogs are trained to behave in any scenario. I'll let you mull over how the puppy training applies to your swimming, but hopefully you'll see some similarities and points taht you can apply.  Brothers site: http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/ Edited by AdventureBear 2007-01-19 7:39 PM |
| 2007-01-19 7:43 PM in reply to: #660099 |
| Extreme Veteran 398 Charlotte,NC | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) I am also wondering how long it took you to swim 4250 yards? That is a long swim and would take even a very good swimmer 60 minutes to complete. |
| 2007-01-19 7:54 PM in reply to: #660099 |
| Extreme Veteran 398 Charlotte,NC | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) Don't bother..I found it from your training log.The time is slow and I think you need to swim more than you did in 2006 at least 3 times a week. 50 hrs a year not nearly enough to improve your times let alone maintain swimming fitness regardless of technique. Edited by doubleplay 2007-01-19 7:54 PM |
| 2007-01-19 8:06 PM in reply to: #660099 |
Expert 657 Portland | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) I am struggling with the same issue! I have been working on TI since November, and can barely make it two lengths without getting tired. I think my troubles lie with the fact that my head is too low, and it is taking too much time when I rotate for my face to clear the surface for a breath. I am hoping that things will get easier with more training, but I too, am starting to doubt if pure TI technique is the answer to better swim times for me. I am considering a clinic next month to see if I can make some adjustments to what I have been doing to help with the breathing issue. |
| 2007-01-19 8:14 PM in reply to: #660099 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) TO the OP and others, if you are having trouble with technique, you cannot focus on swimming fast and swimming correctly at the same time. You will lose focus on one or the other and do neither one well (you'll be slow and sloppy). For some people, TI will 'magically' improve swim times fast, and for others they will see an initial slowing of times as the new technique takes time to learn neuromuscularly and become automatic. This time period of 'automatizing' your swim form is frustrating for many people. The way TI is taught to the masses (in the books & DVD) is primarly about balance and length. Master these skills, it takes time. Another on this board mentioned that he took his new TI stroke to a non-TI coach who worked with him on his catch and pull...that's when he made significant gains. TI by itself is not magic, it's the combination of several different aspects of form, the first one that almost ALL beginners have, is one of balance in the water (the reason why you're slower without the pull buoy than you are with it)...common sense would say you should be faster if you add your legs to the work your arms are already doing. TI does not spend a lot of time discussing an early catch and a high elbow, but these skills done on the absense of a horizontally balanced body don't gain you anything but fatigue. Improving yoru swimming is a circular game that lasts for years and years and years, and is an enjoyable one at that. Edited by AdventureBear 2007-01-19 8:16 PM |
| 2007-01-19 8:28 PM in reply to: #660099 |
Expert 657 Portland | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) I agree. but the summer racing season will be here before we know it, so what to do about the need to swim fast, while still in the midst of learning technique? |
| 2007-01-19 8:36 PM in reply to: #661373 |
| Master 1362 Charlotte, NC | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) MikeJ - 2007-01-19 9:28 PM I agree. but the summer racing season will be here before we know it, so what to do about the need to swim fast, while still in the midst of learning technique? The only line I always remember from TI was geared towards triathletes. Triathletes call fast swimmers losers (or something like that) cause for a few seconds gained in the water, you'll lose it on the bike if your too tired. We all have different goals for our races, but I'm focusing on technique and patience for my swim. Granted, I'm only training for a sprint, but its still a worthwhile trade off. And I've noticed that as I work on the form, I'm improving big time... When playing swim"golf" today in the pool, I was able to get my stroke count down to 30-34 per 50 yards and still complete it in 50 seconds. A few weeks ago it was 40-45 strokes in 52-55 seconds. |
| 2007-01-19 8:43 PM in reply to: #660232 |
Master 1704 Long Island, NY | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) caius - 2007-01-18 11:29 PM How long did it take you to complete the 4250 yards using your old technique. If it's reasonable and you aren't completely exhausted when you're doing I would leave it alone and start prepping for an IM! I'm with Caius on this one. Of course I am a newbie and will probably get smacked around for saying this, but your 2.4 mile swim was only 39 minutes behind Stadler's time!! 39 minutes behind the World Champion. (Granted he was pacing himself and you were only doing one event, but a benchmark nonetheless). How much further into that do you think you'd be able to reduce? BT's own Aaron Patel (JeepFleeb) finished swim at IMFL in 1:17:22. If I'm ever within 15 minutes of Aaron I'm either driving a car or very happy! And I'm convinced swimming in pool is slower because you have to stop and turn around every 25 or 50 yd/m. vs. getting into a rhythm and going straight. Not to mention wetsuit and salt water (if applicable) to aid you. You probably even paced yourself to make sure you could do it, but would push a little harder next time. Just my useless $.02 |
| 2007-01-19 9:00 PM in reply to: #660099 |
| Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) This is what I believe helped me. Swim a minimum of 3 times a week even if it's only 500 yards, more is better. MAKE SURE you are doing the T1 drills correctly and you have your balance and good rotation. Do the drills until you have them down. Do very little swimming until you have the drills nailed. Do short sets with 10 to 20 seconds rest, anytime you feel fatigued take a break, if you are fatigued you will not use good form. I started out doing very short sets 50 100 150 100 50. The important thing is when you feel fatigued STOP, REST and repeat. It will get easier but you must pay the price. Good Luck |
| 2007-01-19 9:10 PM in reply to: #660099 |
| Expert 1030 Miller Place, Long Island | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) I just wanted to thank everyone for all the great advice. |
| 2007-01-20 1:48 PM in reply to: #660099 |
| Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) I learned TI just by reading the book and watching the free videos on the TI site. I must admit, I'm the impatient type so I didn't work on the drills as thoroughly as I should have. Nevertheless, with this sloppy approach to working technique, I still noticed a difference. The rotation of the hips provides tremendous power to your stroke. As some have said, the TI method doesn't build speed per se, just efficiency. I'm still slow, but I can tell I'm more efficient. I actually enjoy swimming in the pool (disclaimer: I had an open water "freak out" experience during my tri so my tri swim sucked; nevertheless, I still enjoy swimming). The other thing is that you're probably trying too hard to get the right technique, especially since you're being watched by a friend and you don't want to let him down. Once you're "kicked out of the nest," you can relax a little bit, work at your own pace, and enjoy. Same thing happened to me when I first learned how to ski - I was under the eye of an instructor in a group, I didn't want to hold up the group by being a slow learner, and it was a rather miserable experience. Then I began searching online for tips, watched some free online videos (I'm all about the free videos), and learned some stuff on my own at my own pace. Now I love to ski. |
| 2007-01-20 2:05 PM in reply to: #660099 |
| Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) Here's one more thing I've noticed. Even though I haven't done the TI drills as religiously as I should have, I have done some. When I do them, I do them slowly and deliberately. This means that I'm keeping my head in the water longer than if I were just swimming, which means I'm holding my breath longer, thus causing me to get short of breath even at a very slow pace. |
| 2007-01-21 7:19 AM in reply to: #661758 |
Expert 657 Portland | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) MikeTheBear - 2007-01-20 3:05 PM When I do them, I do them slowly and deliberately. This means that I'm keeping my head in the water longer than if I were just swimming, which means I'm holding my breath longer, thus causing me to get short of breath even at a very slow pace. That's what is so frustrating for me. The breathing thing doesn't seem to be getting any smoother. |
| 2007-01-21 12:25 PM in reply to: #662128 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) MikeJ - 2007-01-21 6:19 AM MikeTheBear - 2007-01-20 3:05 PM When I do them, I do them slowly and deliberately. This means that I'm keeping my head in the water longer than if I were just swimming, which means I'm holding my breath longer, thus causing me to get short of breath even at a very slow pace. That's what is so frustrating for me. The breathing thing doesn't seem to be getting any smoother. Mike J, don't despair and be patient. Breathing is 100 % about form, unlike endurance, which you can acomplish with bad form. I took a quick look at your logs, and noted "45 min" for swim, adn the comment was "overswitch continuous". Did you do a straight swim for 45 minutes of teh overswitch drill? If so, you really need to twist your self out of your mindset for swim training. It's OK to combine a technique workout with an endurance workout, but you can't work on both simultaneously. Some may disagree, but what I see happen so often with high-achieving, competitive types is that they can't let go of the idea of going long or going fast in order to work on form. I personally think it's OK to do drills for a little bit and THEN do a longer swim trying to incorporate the drill into your stroke (as opposed to doing nothing but drills until you have them down and THEN swimming). You should incorporate swimming drills into every workout that you do, and if you are able to concentrate long enough, it's OK to do a whole session of just drills. But doing 45 minutes of continuous of a single drill seems to lose the benefit of both. I hope that makes sense. Don't get discouraged and focus on rolling to breath instead of lifting. One super easy drill that has helped me even in the past few weeks is kicking only, face down. To breath instead of lifting my head as some drills advocate (it helps see how lifting causes your hips to sink), roll your body as a unit to the side. Imagine holding a tennis ball or orange under your chin as you do it. If you lift your head, the ball will fall out You can actually do this drill with a tennis ball as well. It's super simple and super effective. |
| 2007-01-21 1:52 PM in reply to: #662320 |
| Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) AdventureBear - 2007-01-21 12:25 PM Some may disagree, but what I see happen so often with high-achieving, competitive types is that they can't let go of the idea of going long or going fast in order to work on form. This is probably why I get impatient with doing drills. If I'm not tired after a workout, it wasn't a good workout. Same reason why I have trouble with the idea of "easy" workouts, and probably why I'm sitting at my computer with a back injury rather than training. But your suggestion of doing drills, followed by constant swimming, then doing some more drills is a good one. |
| 2007-01-21 5:23 PM in reply to: #660099 |
Expert 1213 Los Gatos, CA | Subject: RE: Please tell me this gets easier (swimming) The only thing I learned from TI was balance, stroke instruction by TI isn't that good......you are typical 2 min per 100 swimmer like so many of us.....not bad but not that good either, middle of the pack.....technique is of course huge, but if your technique is reasonable, the way to get faster is tempo sets the way they do in masters.....you need to swim more and harder to get faster....I am swimming less aerobic sets and more tempo and sprint sets where I am really pushing as hard as I can, rest, repeat, it has made a difference in how I feel in the water. I time trialed this morning sub 3:20 for 200 yds where I was stuck at 4 minutes it seemed like forever...ok, still not very fast, but busting through the plateau... |
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