General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Am I being realistic? Rss Feed  
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2007-06-30 12:11 AM
in reply to: #866909

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
Pete10 - 2007-06-29 11:51 PM

PennState - 2007-06-29 8:14 AM

Yup I agree with above as well. Enjoy life now.

Most ultra runners are older 30+ and most long course tri competitors are also 30+.

Heck the pro's that win are usually in their 30s-40s (see Natasha Badmann and Normann Stadler)

I think you have to ask yourself why you want to do ultra's instead of at least a 1/2 mary? Is it for your own satisfaction/accomplishment, or to impress others?


Again, what am I missing? I will still see all of these people in school except I won't be participating with them in their choice of extra curricular activites (getting drunk, partying, doing stupid things). I don't do any of these activites anyway. You may ask, then why are those people my friends? I've known these people for a very long time and just in the past year things have changed drastically.

I will say pride does play a major factor in my decisions. I want to know I can do just about anything and I want people to know I can do just about anything. I want to push myself to my limits and survive. I want to show people I'm unstoppable and I can do anything I set my mind to.

Like others have stated, 2 years is a long ways away (but it comes fast) and my mind could change. At this point, I'm definitely going to run the Glacial Trail 50 but the Western States makes me very nervous.



Hey it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders for starters. I understand having big dreams and goals and I say more power to you. Push on man!!


2007-06-30 9:53 AM
in reply to: #866934

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
JeepFleeb - 2007-06-30 12:02 AM

You shouldn't stop lifting weights, but the goal of breaking your school's weight room records will work against your endurance racing goals.  There's a big difference between weight lifting and functional strength training.

The ability to lift heavy things doesn't come up that often during in an endurance race.


Per Joe DeFranco:

"Functional training" is a way for skinny, weak personal trainers to get recognized. They know they’re not going to turn any heads by bench-pressing the eight-pound chrome dumbbells, so they balance on a wobble board and touch their toes! It makes me sick!

Whoever came up with the term "functional" for these ridiculous exercises needs to have his head examined. Here’s my question for all of the "functional" trainers out there: How would you categorize the following exercises, since you don’t classify them as functional? Squats, chins, deadlifts, sled dragging, tire flipping, and glute-ham raises, just to name a few. I’d love to be enlightened with an answer to that question. Let’s move on.

JeepFleeb - 2007-06-30 12:02 AM

Big muscles become excess bulk and are just dead weight to carry in your race. Powerlifters don't tranfer well into ultra-marathoning.

Example: Scott Jurek. Strong, well-toned, but not big and muscular.


Example: David Goggins. Strong, well-toned, not big, but very muscular. That's my goal physique.

-Used to be a powerlifter.
-Bench Pressed in the 400 lb. range.
-Badwater, Western States, Ultraman, RAAM









Edited by Pete10 2007-06-30 9:54 AM




(goggins.jpg)



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2007-06-30 10:26 AM
in reply to: #867068

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?

Just because functional training doesn't result in huge muscles does not mean it is not useful.  Functional training is not "a way for skinny, weak personal trainer to get recognized" it simply means training for a specific purpose.  Functional training involves exercises that are sports specific meaning this type of training is much more valuable to endurance athletes than simply 'pumping iron' for the sake of bragging rights.

Take Lance Armstrong or Mark Allen (two of the best endurance athletes) for example.  They will have done functional training when required and these guys are anything but "weak".

Also I think you'll find that David Goggins is somewhat of an exception in terms of the physique of an endurance athlete.

2007-06-30 3:40 PM
in reply to: #867086

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
tridantri - 2007-06-30 10:26 AM

Just because functional training doesn't result in huge muscles does not mean it is not useful.  Functional training is not "a way for skinny, weak personal trainer to get recognized" it simply means training for a specific purpose.  Functional training involves exercises that are sports specific meaning this type of training is much more valuable to endurance athletes than simply 'pumping iron' for the sake of bragging rights.

Take Lance Armstrong or Mark Allen (two of the best endurance athletes) for example.  They will have done functional training when required and these guys are anything but "weak".

Also I think you'll find that David Goggins is somewhat of an exception in terms of the physique of an endurance athlete.


No type of strength training, weight training, or weight lifting is sport specific. They are all forms of General Physical Preparation. You cannot duplicate the physical demands of athletics by lifting weights. That's why you strengthen the muscles you will use in your athletic event.

More from Joe DeFranco:

Sport-specific training in the weight room is bs! Get strong in the weight room using the most economical exercises and then make that strength “sport-specific” by practicing the technical aspects of your sport separately!

tridantri - 2007-06-30 10:26 AM

Also I think you'll find that David Goggins is somewhat of an exception in terms of the physique of an endurance athlete.

So...
2007-06-30 3:44 PM
in reply to: #864689

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
I hope we can all set aside the fact that terms like "sport specific" and "functional training" are garbage. My purpose of this thread is not to argue about weight lifting. This thread was made in order for me to get people's opinions on my future plans.

Edited by Pete10 2007-06-30 3:48 PM
2007-06-30 3:52 PM
in reply to: #867243

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2007-06-30 4:11 PM
in reply to: #867243

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?

Pete10 - 2007-06-30 9:40 PM
tridantri - 2007-06-30 10:26 AM Also I think you'll find that David Goggins is somewhat of an exception in terms of the physique of an endurance athlete.
So...

So body building and successful endurance sport participation don't often go together well.

2007-06-30 5:28 PM
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2007-06-30 7:52 PM
in reply to: #867320

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
JeepFleeb - 2007-06-30 5:28 PM

Pete10 - 2007-06-30 3:40 PM
So...

Trying to put yourself in a position where you have to be the exception to the rule isn't maximizing your chances for success.


Ok, then I'll make myself an exception. You have to admit, the mind plays the biggest role in how successful a person will be in ultra's and I also think I can use this burden (muscle) to my advantage (GPP).
2007-06-30 7:58 PM
in reply to: #867270

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
tridantri - 2007-06-30 4:11 PM

So powerlifting and successful endurance sport participation don't often go together well.


But it can be done and that's all that matters in my case. We really should stop arguing about this and just wait and see how things go in 23 months.
2007-06-30 8:06 PM
in reply to: #864689

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?

It is great you have goals for the future to do these races. I have goals of tris I want to do in the future. One day I'll do an Ironman...hey I'm 45 but I'm taking the long road, trying to train smart, build up my base so when I feel ready my body is prepared to do the training necessary. I will probably do tris for 5-6 years before I'm ready to train for the Ironman distance.

I think in many ways you are in the same spot (albeit much younger than me). You have a goal you want to achieve in a few years. Smart thing to do is do all you can now to help you be able to train smart to reach that goal.

I'm not an ultra runner or have much knowledge in the area, but like you are doing I'd research as much as I could, I'd talk to folks that have done it, try to find a mentor or coach that could put together a 3-4 year plan for you to reach that...be it running shorter events with cross country or track, but trust someone who has the knowledge to help you.

Read books, search the internet, and learn from as many sources as possible.

It is a great goal but you need to consider where you are and if you body is able to handle the training necessary to do the race and develop the mental toughness required. Working toward it in a consistent manner that allows you to have fun and build up to it safely is key.

I have twin 18 year old sons...if they had this goal, man it would scare me but with good research, and knowledgeable coach/mentor as a parent I trusted, if my sons' went about it in a sound reasonable manner I'd be supportive.



2007-07-01 12:23 AM
in reply to: #867248

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
If you REALLY want to race ultras run highschool track and cross country. Even if you think the distances are short the guys that win Western States and Badwater are all good "shorter" distance runners. My grandpa was a top finisher at Western States and the 6 day 500 mile runs in the 70's and he was a 4:22 miler, as is Scott Jurek and Dean Karnazes. I come from a ultra running family (both parents and grandpa have finished Western States multiple times) and if you want to be good at those distances you need to lose a lot of your muscle and get more running speed...remember there is a cutoff time. The excess muscle will do nothing but slow you down. Personally if I were you I wouldn't do it, it won't do anything good for you. Yeah you can be the youngest person to do it, but you will probably also tear your knees apart. I wanted to race Western States and Badwater next year at age 18, but after talking to top coaches I was constantly told it would do MUCH more harm than good. Good luck at whatever you do.

Edited by gocorey 2007-07-01 12:30 AM
2007-07-01 9:45 AM
in reply to: #864689

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?

i know absoloutely nothing about running but just to let you know that bodies take time to develop. steven gerrard is a professional footballer (soccer) player here. the man is a class act but whilst he was still a teenager and early twenties he struggled: his muscles and skeleton were not growing at the same rate and he missed games through injury. too much too soon maybe?

he's mid-twenties now and captained his team to european cup glory a few years ago and is regarded as one of the best midfielders in the country (and world maybe?)

my point is the races won't go away. don't rush yourself. enjoy highschool for what it is, and don't panic about not fitting in, but do try and get the most out of it. if you want to break highschool weight room records go for it; but don't expect to ultra-run train at the same time. stretch your goals out time wise and do everything you want to over more years: less chance of injury and more chance of enjoying each aspect.



Edited by sappho96 2007-07-01 9:45 AM
2007-07-01 7:32 PM
in reply to: #867409

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
KathyG - 2007-06-30 8:06 PM

It is great you have goals for the future to do these races. I have goals of tris I want to do in the future. One day I'll do an Ironman...hey I'm 45 but I'm taking the long road, trying to train smart, build up my base so when I feel ready my body is prepared to do the training necessary. I will probably do tris for 5-6 years before I'm ready to train for the Ironman distance.

I think in many ways you are in the same spot (albeit much younger than me). You have a goal you want to achieve in a few years. Smart thing to do is do all you can now to help you be able to train smart to reach that goal.

I'm not an ultra runner or have much knowledge in the area, but like you are doing I'd research as much as I could, I'd talk to folks that have done it, try to find a mentor or coach that could put together a 3-4 year plan for you to reach that...be it running shorter events with cross country or track, but trust someone who has the knowledge to help you.

Read books, search the internet, and learn from as many sources as possible.

It is a great goal but you need to consider where you are and if you body is able to handle the training necessary to do the race and develop the mental toughness required. Working toward it in a consistent manner that allows you to have fun and build up to it safely is key.

I have twin 18 year old sons...if they had this goal, man it would scare me but with good research, and knowledgeable coach/mentor as a parent I trusted, if my sons' went about it in a sound reasonable manner I'd be supportive.


I'll definitely research, read books, and watch the Western States and Badwater movies. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone to talk to who runs ultras.
2007-07-01 7:41 PM
in reply to: #867538

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
gocorey - 2007-07-01 12:23 AM

If you REALLY want to race ultras run highschool track and cross country. Even if you think the distances are short the guys that win Western States and Badwater are all good "shorter" distance runners. My grandpa was a top finisher at Western States and the 6 day 500 mile runs in the 70's and he was a 4:22 miler, as is Scott Jurek and Dean Karnazes. I come from a ultra running family (both parents and grandpa have finished Western States multiple times) and if you want to be good at those distances you need to lose a lot of your muscle and get more running speed...remember there is a cutoff time. The excess muscle will do nothing but slow you down. Personally if I were you I wouldn't do it, it won't do anything good for you. Yeah you can be the youngest person to do it, but you will probably also tear your knees apart. I wanted to race Western States and Badwater next year at age 18, but after talking to top coaches I was constantly told it would do MUCH more harm than good. Good luck at whatever you do.

I haven't run just one mile in over a year. A year ago, when I tested it, I ran a 6:05. I definitely believe I could crack 5:30.

Again, I disagree with losing muscle and not weight lifting. I will continue to strength train except I plan on switching to a higher rep program about a year before I get started training for the 50 mile race. I have an article that will back me up on this subject, I suggest you read it.

http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/strength-training/strength-and-pow...



Edited by Pete10 2007-07-01 7:43 PM
2007-07-01 7:53 PM
in reply to: #867655

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
sappho96 - 2007-07-01 9:45 AM

i know absoloutely nothing about running but just to let you know that bodies take time to develop. steven gerrard is a professional footballer (soccer) player here. the man is a class act but whilst he was still a teenager and early twenties he struggled: his muscles and skeleton were not growing at the same rate and he missed games through injury. too much too soon maybe?

he's mid-twenties now and captained his team to european cup glory a few years ago and is regarded as one of the best midfielders in the country (and world maybe?)

my point is the races won't go away. don't rush yourself. enjoy highschool for what it is, and don't panic about not fitting in, but do try and get the most out of it. if you want to break highschool weight room records go for it; but don't expect to ultra-run train at the same time. stretch your goals out time wise and do everything you want to over more years: less chance of injury and more chance of enjoying each aspect.


I understand that I can't accomplish the two at the same time. Here's my plan:

Now-June 2008: Continue my Westside conjugated strength training and beat the records.
Now-March 2009: High school basketball
June 2008-June 2010: High rep training (2-3 days per week)
May 2009-October 2009: Train for Glacial Trail 50
October 2009-June 2010: Hopefully train for Western States. If not, these are my next 3 choices:

2. Vermont 100
3. Superior 100
4. Kettle Moraine 100 (this is my safety net, no travel involved)

Edited by Pete10 2007-07-01 8:08 PM


2007-07-01 10:24 PM
in reply to: #864689

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
Congratulations to you for keeping yourself so healthy and away from drugs/alcohol/trouble!

You may want to take a few years to build up to the 50 mile distance then put in for the lottery. Do a few seasons of marathons and 50's. I have paced my friend on many ultras even Norm's. It is grueling and she has completed dozens of marathons. Your run base will take time to develop, it could take years. My girlfriend just ran ws100 she put in the time and worked really hard and was unfortunately pulled from the race at mile 80 for metabolic reasons. It is no small task even for experienced ultra runners to complete ws100. But I am sure if you put in the time and are smart about hydration and good nutrition you will absolutely get there.

Ultra runners are often older it does take some wisdom and experience and their is no room for arrogance it can be dangerous.

Good luck!

A side note about the weight lifting- when you get into running ultras you will not want to lug around extra bulk. Muscle mass can be difficult to take off too. You may want to work on strengthening and not building. Your core is a great thing to develop.

2007-07-01 11:10 PM
in reply to: #868237

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?
ventinc - 2007-07-01 10:24 PM

Congratulations to you for keeping yourself so healthy and away from drugs/alcohol/trouble!

You may want to take a few years to build up to the 50 mile distance then put in for the lottery. Do a few seasons of marathons and 50's. I have paced my friend on many ultras even Norm's. It is grueling and she has completed dozens of marathons. Your run base will take time to develop, it could take years. My girlfriend just ran ws100 she put in the time and worked really hard and was unfortunately pulled from the race at mile 80 for metabolic reasons. It is no small task even for experienced ultra runners to complete ws100. But I am sure if you put in the time and are smart about hydration and good nutrition you will absolutely get there.

Ultra runners are often older it does take some wisdom and experience and their is no room for arrogance it can be dangerous.

Good luck!

A side note about the weight lifting- when you get into running ultras you will not want to lug around extra bulk. Muscle mass can be difficult to take off too. You may want to work on strengthening and not building. Your core is a great thing to develop.


Thanks!

The Glacial Trail 50 is run a little over 1.5 months before the WS lottery. It's the tougher of the two Kettle Moraine races (Glacial Trail & Ice Age).

Obviously, 50 and 100 milers are a lot tougher than marathons but I honestly had no running experience at all before beginning my 5 month marathon training. I was planning on building up a base for 3-4 weeks before beginning the training program on runner's world for my 50. Then, I'd continue to train for Western States planning and assuming I'd make it. If I don't make it, I'll try one of the other races I posted above. That should give me signifcant time to build up to a 100 miler. I'm just worried about training for the 100 miler during the frigid winter of Wisconsin. I'll have built up a great base from the 50 miler but my performance and tolerance will likely drop when the snow and cold comes.

I have the nutritional aspect down. Hydration still has room for improvement.

As far as weight lifting, that's exactly what I'm doing, strengthening. Adding strength will also result in some hypertrophy gains but I'm willing to accept that.
2007-07-02 12:26 AM
in reply to: #864689

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Subject: RE: Am I being realistic?

I have met David Goggins. He USED to be able to lift 400. He couldn't right now. He suffered and continues to suffer from injuries due to his size.

Like others have said, there is a lot of time between now and then, so good luck

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