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What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight
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 2007-10-10 8:22 PM |
Coach  9167     Stairway to Seven |  Subject: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonightI'm taking a class in advanced exercise physiology, and I volunteered to be the subject for 3 different VO2 max protocols. Tonight's test was the "modified Astrand Treadmill" protocol 1 min 3mph 0% grade Warmup 3 min 5mph 0% grade Stage 1 2 min 5mph 2.5% grade Stage 2 2 min 5mph 5% grade Stage 3 3 min 5mph 7.5% grade STage 4 etc... with each stage increasing at 2.5% grade until exhaustion. Things I learned: 1) VO2 Max tests are hard 2) VO2 Max tests are really painful 3) Your VO2 Max is reached before your Max Exertion level, so if you are afraid you may have cheated just a little by quitting before actually passing out, that's probalby OK (the printout of values will tell you if you reached your max) 4) If I lost weight my VO2 Max (in ml/kg/min) would go up! 5) Even though running is my least favorite of the 3 sports, the amount of oxygen that my body is using is somewhat independant of my actual speed. In otherwords, someone else may be a more natural runner & have more efficient stride and not require as much oxygen to reach teh same stage that I did...and may have a lower VO2 max. My results: Age: 38 Weight: 68 kg VO2 max 40.4 ml/kg/min That puts me in the "superior" fitness category based on some tables by "Coopers Aerobics Institute". But here's the wierd part...I know that I'm slower than most of my friends that I ride/race with. I'd wager that a majority of BTers are around here or higher. I need to find some tables of triathlete & cyclist values to compare to. There are 2 more parts to the lab and at the end we will compare the results of 4 different ways of testing or estimating VO2 max. The last will be the cycling VO2 Max test, whcih I'm really looking forward to. I have the full printout of values which I'm going to plug into excel to calculate my ventilatory breakpoint and HR at anaerobic threshold, as well as teh %age of VO2max achieved at my anaerobic threshold Let the fun begin! Edited by AdventureBear 2007-10-10 8:31 PM |
 2007-10-10 8:30 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
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| 2007-10-10 8:33 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight That's cool. The take home of the VO2 max test though, is getting the rest of the values to determine your anaerobic threshold based on the ventilatory breakpoint...a valid measure of AT without doing blood testing. I agree the VO2 max alone is not useful for planning training, it's just a curiosity. |
| 2007-10-10 8:39 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight just out of curiosity, do you think you achieved your VO2Max or your VO2 peak. I would like to do a VO2 peak test for cycling as I am not sure I could hit my VO2Max at least not yet. about #5 wouldn't you have better running economy? btw, nice job, those things are tough indeed! |
| 2007-10-10 8:39 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight Did they make you wear that embarassing gown that leaves you bare-a$$ed in the back and poke you with needles? Cuz it ain't a real medical test unless these two factors are involved. Just picking on you, but this is interesting stuff. In particular: That puts me in the "superior" fitness category based on some tables by "Coopers Aerobics Institute". But here's the wierd part...I know that I'm slower than most of my friends that I ride/race with. I'd wager that a majority of BTers are around here or higher. I always like to say that I'm an "in shape fat guy." Some people have told me that this is an oxymoron - that you can't be in shape and fat. It's all relative. It's true that I run with the grace and speed of a cement truck with a flat tire, but if you figure I'm moving around 98 kg or so, that put's it in perspective. |
| 2007-10-10 8:47 PM in reply to: #1001879 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight MikeTheBear - 2007-10-10 7:39 PM I always like to say that I'm an "in shape fat guy." Some people have told me that this is an oxymoron - that you can't be in shape and fat. It's all relative. It's true that I run with the grace and speed of a cement truck with a flat tire, but if you figure I'm moving around 98 kg or so, that put's it in perspective. All's fair and point taken...I have put on 10 pounds in the past 1 1/2 years after losing 20 pounds 3 years ago. I definately notice it every day and I notice the daily bad habits that I don't seem to be in control of that lead to weight gain (beer & food as a reward for a stressful job). Everytime I ride with my superstar friends who are winning state and regional level events I feel like an inadequate slug. But then I ride with a non-racer and i"m blowing them away. I KNOW I'm in much better aerobic shape than a year ago and that my leg stregnth is significantly improved. But add 10 pounds of fat on top of that framework and performance is bound to go down. What' snice though is that absolute VO2 max is not affected by your weight...it's just normalized by weight for comparison. |
| 2007-10-10 8:47 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
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| 2007-10-10 8:50 PM in reply to: #1001878 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight amiine - 2007-10-10 7:39 PM just out of curiosity, do you think you achieved your VO2Max or your VO2 peak. I would like to do a VO2 peak test for cycling as I am not sure I could hit my VO2Max at least not yet. about #5 wouldn't you have better running economy? btw, nice job, those things are tough indeed! I'm pretty sure I could have gone another minute or two, but I honestly thought I was going to pass out. Passing out on a cold laboratory floor with the prof and 4 relative stranger grad students was not on the list of "fun things to do tonight in class". I learned tonight that if you are on a bike it's considered a "peak" test, as in the peak VO2 you can acheive with that modality of training. Since running uses more muscle mass than cycling, it can be considered a "max" test. So yes, I think I acheived my Max on the treadmill test. Looking at the rpintouts, I went a few minutes past my peak with increasing heart rate and increasing ventilation whle my VO2 consumption stayed the same. This make sense when you think of exercise on a spectrum of mostly aerobic metabolism to mostly (or more than before) anaerobic metabolism. When you are deep into teh anaerobic metablism at the end of the test, you have already acheived VO2 max and are entering into metabolic acidosis. So how about some other values ? (just so I can feel inadequte) |
| 2007-10-10 8:54 PM in reply to: #1001878 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight amiine - 2007-10-10 7:39 PM about #5 wouldn't you have better running economy? I"m pretty certain my running economy is horrible. I was at HR of 144 during the WARMUP of the test! It then rose gradually and hovered at a few points so once I was past that initial Oh-My-God-I-Cant-Breath stage of the test, I chilled out a little. But regardless, in order to achieve whatever economy I DO have...a certain amount of oxygen is required, and that's what comes out on the testing. I guess I would need repeated tests to see if my ecomonmy was improving. I'm also anxious to see how the other 3 tests go...I am the subject for all of them (Lucky Me - Seriously!) I'll post updates when the other results come back. |
| 2007-10-10 9:10 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
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| 2007-10-10 9:19 PM in reply to: #1001912 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight PennState - 2007-10-10 8:10 PM 2. A waste product is produced... Lactic acid... which builds up in the muscle cells, causing pain. Sorry, I know this stuff is boring... I just think understanding it helps me understand my own training I love it too! (hence the reason I'm taking the class). The current thinking is that lactate is not a "waste" product. It's recycled in the Lactate shuttle and taken up by liver, transformed back into pyruvate, then to glucose. ABout 75% is sent back out into the blood stream as glucose to be used again, and 25% is stored in the liver and/or muscles as glycogen, the storage form of glucose. This takes place to some degree the whole time, but mostly after the exercise intensity decreases, and is complete within an hour or so of exercise so that your lactate level is back to resting, and all of that excess lactate that was produced is now hanging out as glucose or glycogen again, ready to roll for the next workout! Cool. |
| 2007-10-10 9:28 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight I was taught VO2 Max was the ultimate (maximum) limit your heart can get/deliver to your working muscles while VO2 peak was more of a functional limit, or the best you could do with current fitness level. If you are in a detrained stage for instance, most likely you wouldn't achieve your max regardless of the activity (also if you haven't trained enough in "x" activity). And it is an important point as you have more room for improvement and/or performance potential. Anyway, good stuff. |
| 2007-10-10 9:29 PM in reply to: #1001924 |
Champion 8936 | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight To add to that, lactic acid isn't what causes the burning sensation. That's from from excess hydrogen ions produced as a byproduct. AdventureBear - 2007-10-10 9:19 PM The current thinking is that lactate is not a "waste" product. It's recycled in the Lactate shuttle and taken up by liver, transformed back into pyruvate, then to glucose. ABout 75% is sent back out into the blood stream as glucose to be used again, and 25% is stored in the liver and/or muscles as glycogen, the storage form of glucose. This takes place to some degree the whole time, but mostly after the exercise intensity decreases, and is complete within an hour or so of exercise so that your lactate level is back to resting, and all of that excess lactate that was produced is now hanging out as glucose or glycogen again, ready to roll for the next workout! Cool. |
| 2007-10-10 9:37 PM in reply to: #1001934 |
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| 2007-10-10 9:40 PM in reply to: #1001932 |
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| 2007-10-10 9:45 PM in reply to: #1001941 |
| Champion 8936 | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight Fred, I just added that part because we were always taught that lactic acid caused the burning, and I've only learned recently that it's not the case. Since we're all being dorks here, I figured I'd contribute. PennState - 2007-10-10 9:37 PM DerekL - 2007-10-10 10:29 PM To add to that, lactic acid isn't what causes the burning sensation. That's from from excess hydrogen ions produced as a byproduct. Agree, the burning is not lactate mediated. My understanding though is that muscle fatigue and pain are lactate related. This is the body telling you to slow down as you can't maintain the effort that long. And yes lactate should really be called a 'by-product' of anerobic metabolism, as lactate actually has a lot of energy in it (as very little... only 2 ATP were taken from it), so the fact that the body later converts it into energy later on makes sense. |
| 2007-10-10 9:47 PM in reply to: #1001953 |
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| 2007-10-10 10:02 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight YOu're all dorks. Wait, am I the only girl here tonight? Re: Amine's last comment There are 3 components to oxygen use during exercise 1) Uptake of oxygen (lungs!) 2) Central delivery of oxygen (capacity of the heart to deliver red blood cells, so dependant upon Heart rate, stroke volume and hemoglobin concentration) 3) Peripheral uptake of oxygen (all the muscle adaptations we talk about - mitochondria, capillaries, enzyme production, etc) Amine, the explanation that was given to you is only one of the components and is trainable to some degree. LIkewise the peripheral adaptation is also trainable, and is the component that is worked on during our years and years (in some cases) of consistent endurance training. At any given fitness level, your MAX is what it is...there will be a maximum amount of oxygen that your body is able to use...the more muscle mass you incorporate, the higher it will be, so somethng like XC skiing would probalby be the highest. Any activity incorporating less than maximum muscle mass (i.e. upper & lower body), will have a PEAK for that activity, which is likely lower than your potential MAX at that given fitness leve. But several of the above 3 main components are trainable, and each of the 3 components can be broken down into many, many other components which may or may not be rate limiting, and may or may not be trainable. For example, your Heart Rate is directly related to how much blood can be delivered, and is a rate limiting step in oxygen delivery. BUT, your maximum heart rate is not trainable, thus we forget it and move on to the next step. Respiration is NOT rate limiting, and thus there is no need to train it or even worry about it. Your lungs are overengineered to provde the ability for your blood to take up oxygen from the air. The peripheral, or muscular component is the most interesting and the most fun to study... This is where type 1, type 2, aerobic, anaerobic, lactate, pyruvate, mitochondria, etc, etc all come into play. This last component is very trainable...if it were not, we'd all have reached our maxium fitness in just a few weeks of training.  Yes, I'm a dork and I love it. Edited by AdventureBear 2007-10-10 10:14 PM |
| 2007-10-10 10:23 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
| Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight I'm the dork because what I said came out wrong and now Suzanne thinks I called her fat which I didn't. But this is all cool and interesting stuff. The only reason I went to law school is because I sucked at chemistry. |
| 2007-10-10 11:23 PM in reply to: #1001862 |
| Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight Here's a Wikipedia entry on lactic acid. Sounds like the idea that lactic acid needs to be "flushed out" of the muscles is wrong. Wouldn't it all get used up as energy? Even if it didn't, it's not responsible for muscle soreness anyway. During power-intensive exercises such as sprinting, when the rate of demand for energy is high, lactate is produced faster than the ability of the tissues to remove it and lactate concentration begins to rise. This is a beneficial process since the regeneration of NAD+ ensures that energy production is maintained and exercise can continue. The increased lactate produced can be removed in a number of ways including: oxidation to pyruvate by well-oxygenated muscle cells which is then directly used to fuel the citric acid cycle and conversion to glucose via the Cori cycle in the liver through the process of gluconeogenesis.
Contrary to popular belief, this increased concentration of lactate does not directly cause acidosis, nor is it responsible for delayed onset muscle soreness.[1] This is because lactate itself is not capable of releasing a proton, and secondly, the acidic form of lactate, lactic acid, cannot be formed under normal circumstances in human tissues. Analysis of the glycolytic pathway in humans indicates that there are not enough hydrogen ions present in the glycolytic intermediates to produce lactic or any other acid.
The acidosis that is associated with increases in lactate concentration during heavy exercise arises from a separate reaction. When ATP is hydrolysed, a hydrogen ion is released. ATP-derived hydrogen ions are primarily responsible for the decrease in pH. During intense exercise, aerobic metabolism cannot produce ATP quickly enough to supply the demands of the muscle. As a result, anaerobic metabolism becomes the dominant energy producing pathway as it can form ATP at high rates. Due to the large amounts of ATP being produced and hydrolysed in a short period of time, the buffering systems of the tissues are overcome, causing pH to fall and creating a state of acidosis. This may be one factor, among many, that contributes to the acute muscular discomfort experienced shortly after intense exercise.[citations needed]
The effect of lactate on acidosis has been the topic of many recent conferences in the field of exercise physiology. Robergs et al. have accurately chased the proton movement that occurs during glycolysis. However, in doing so, they have suggested that [H+] is an independent variable that determines its own concentration. A recent review by Lindinger et al.[citation needed] has been written to rebut the stoichiometric approach used by Robergs et al (2004).[1] In using this stoichiometric process, Robergs et al. have ignored the causitive factors (independent variables) of [H+]. These factors are strong ion difference [SID], PCO2, and weak acid buffers. Lactate is a strong anion, and causes a reduction in [SID] which causes and increase in [H+] to maintain electroneutrality. PCO2 also causes an increase in [H+]. During exercise, intramuscular [lactate] and PCO2 increase, causing an increase in [H+], and thus a decrease in pH.
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| 2007-10-11 12:01 AM in reply to: #1001987 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight MikeTheBear - 2007-10-10 9:23 PM I'm the dork because what I said came out wrong and now Suzanne thinks I called her fat which I didn't. But this is all cool and interesting stuff. The only reason I went to law school is because I sucked at chemistry. Does this breathing apparatus I'm wearing on the treadmill make my butt look fat? Funny...during the test I was wondering if my bra was noticibly dysfunctional... |
| 2007-10-11 12:04 AM in reply to: #1001912 |
| Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight PennState - 2007-10-10 9:10 PM Good point about the V02 max. Yes, you do pass this point when the exertion continues... but you can't for long as essentially the amount of oxygen you consume does not increase, so all extra energy production is anaerobic. We discussed this in another thread recently, but I like this stuff, so I will re-hash: The basic pre-energy unit in the cell is pyruvate. The actual energy used by the cells (muscles) is ATP. Aerobic Metabolism: Thru the Kreb's Cycle (and other parts of the aerobic cycle) aerobic metabolism converts 1 pyruvate (essentially a product of fructose, glucose) into 28-30 ATP units. This is a slower, but highly efficient process. Once your energy requirements go beyond what you are able to produce thru aerobic metaboloism... another system needs to kick in the anerobic system. The anerobic system: It is faster (Why?... well, the pyruvate energy source in aerobic metabolism needs to be transported in the the cell from the cytoplasm to the mitochondria, which takes time)... in the anerobic system, the pyruvate is fermented into energy right on the spot in the cell's cytoplasm. However this anerobic process has 2 big problems: Sorry, I know this stuff is boring... I just think understanding it helps me understand my own training Okay, one more thing and then I'll go away and let the real science types discuss. Understanding the Krebs Cycle and the ATP stuff really did help my training. I had always read that you need carbohydrates to fuel endurance activities. Well, I've noticed that when I take in carbs without protein or fat, the insulin kicks in and I bonk shortly thereafter. GU has no protein, and whenever I consumed this stuff my blood sugar dropped. Now I know that it's not carbs per se that provide energy, but that it's all broken down into ATP. Fat and protein (amino acids) can also be broken down into ATP. I no longer eat carbs on race day or during a long workout. I'll have a protein shake and some fish oil capsules and I don't bonk. Am I wrong here? |
| 2007-10-11 6:02 AM in reply to: #1001862 |
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| 2007-10-11 6:50 AM in reply to: #1001862 |
| Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight Wheeee!!! This is fun. OK, question for AB. What was your speed at VO2Max? That can be a useful number, as well, possibly more so than the VO2Max number. A chart of the different speeds would be interesting to see. |
| 2007-10-11 7:51 AM in reply to: #1001862 |
| Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: What I learned during my VO2 Max Test tonight This is good stuff. Keep going. |
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