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2007-10-18 10:31 AM

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Subject: Critique me please
I signed up for Timberman yesterday and this will be my first HIM distance race. My goal is to finish in under five hours. I'd like to hear all of your thoughts on the best way to get there. By the way my logs are only accurate from 8/25/2007 until today.

Swim: I've got to fix my swim. If I don't then I'm not making a sub-five. I'm hiring a coach in the near future to work out the kinks in my stroke. Breathing is my overwhelming issue but I also need to speed up my stroke rate. I basically walk in the water and really don't raise my heartrate at all. I do 12-14 strokes per 25 meters and I'm really comfortable in the water but I basically halt whenever I sight or breathe. I also don't flip turn so I'm a bit faster than I appear in my logs. My swim workouts never make me tired or sore. I've said I would start speeding up the pace once I felt confident with my breathing but I'm just going to get a coach and do whatever he or she says. I've also got to get A LOT more practice in open water with a wetsuit.

Bike: I think my bike is realtively close to being there and needs the least help of the three. I rode a 1:06 bike split in my first Oly and I felt like I could have gone a lot harder. I think if I just keep riding and follow my workout plan I shouldn't really need to do anything beyond t.i.t.s. to turn in a nice split. I got the Cyclist Training Bible so I'm using it to help me prepare for the bike. I do need some climbing work but I'm thinking I just need to spend more time riding hills rather than trying to do any intervals or other focused workouts.

Run: I need miles on my legs if I'm going to do a solid run. I've never run a half marathon in my life. I did run a 7m20s mile for 7.3 the other day in a team relay without any prep fairly easily. If I can build up on the miles then I'm confident that I can run sub 8 minute miles but I don't know much about running. This is the part where I really need the most help. I'm guessing I just need to get out there and get some miles on my legs and build slowly? I've got a lot of running friends that mostly trail run for ultras. I've shyed away from asking them for help and instead just run on my own on the asphalt. Should I turn to them for help?

My transitions were terrible in my first Oly. I'll be practicing those a lot more. Good news is that there are wetsuit strippers at Timberman so that should help a bit. I'll also spend a good bit of time dialing in my nutrition. That really hurt my first race and I will not be making the same mistakes this time around.

I'm also planning to do an Oly or two to gage my fitness and get some more race experience before the main event. I was planning on a late June Oly so I'll still have a bit of time to correct any issues before taper. Should I do a shorter distance? More than one Oly? Several sprints? Thoughts?

Final question, is the beginner HIM plan going to cut it for me? I feel like its really light. I already ride my bike more than they suggest at the peak. Should I follow the plan or keep building on the base that I've currently got? I'm showing up to race the distance not survive it - finishing shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks!


2007-10-18 11:04 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please

stuartjeff - 2007-10-18 8:31 AM . . . Final question, is the beginner HIM plan going to cut it for me? I feel like its really light. I already ride my bike more than they suggest at the peak. Should I follow the plan or keep building on the base that I've currently got? I'm showing up to race the distance not survive it - finishing shouldn't be an issue. Thanks!

I am the least qualified to help as I too will try my first HIM in 2008.  However, the BT plans advertise that they will get you to the finish in a back of the pack stand.  That being said, if your goal is to survive the palns work well for me.   I have met a group here on BT that I do some of my training with such as a few Bricks and Long bike rides - but the best for me is that we meet at a local lake for OWS every Thursday.  It just cooled off enough for us to use wetsuits again, but the helped me greatly.

There must be a group local to you that does something like it.  My problem with Masters swims was I never felt that I fit in and they were big on pool swimming.



Edited by perkins_jerryw 2007-10-18 11:04 AM
2007-10-18 11:10 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
I went with a BT beginner IM plan that was time based.  If the HIM is the same way, the workouts should be sufficient to get you there if you stick to time vs distance to finish where you want to be.
2007-10-18 11:11 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
Oh yeah, you are forgetting nutrition here.  That is gonna make or break your HIM if you want to sniff sub 5 IMO.
2007-10-18 11:17 AM
in reply to: #1013726

Subject: RE: Critique me please
perkins_jerryw - 2007-10-18 12:04 PM

My problem with Masters swims was I never felt that I fit in and they were big on pool swimming.

Because most Masters teams are held in pools, silly Seriously, though, I'd imagine that most Masters coaches just haven't had much experience (if at all) with triathlons and triathlon swimming. A lot of people who join Master's groups were swimmers in college, etc or are looking to get into swimming for fitness. The guy who runs the group I am in (or rather the guy who coaches me one on one since no one else usually shows up on Wednesdays) was a high school/college swimmer and has coached swim teams. He did the swim part on a relay team for the Savageman Triathlon which was held in MD a month or so ago. And I have told him that I want to focus on longer-distance swimming - ie, no reason to turn me into a 50 meter sprinter. Right now, we're just trying to get me "better" than I was before (ie, a good swimmer but never had real coaching).

2007-10-18 11:20 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
I also don't have a lot of experience either, as I am planning to use the BT Beginner HIM plan for my first next year.  I am going to add some longer bikes here and there, as I'm not quite comfortable with the amount of biking in the plan, at least the long rides.


2007-10-18 11:22 AM
in reply to: #1013753

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
Hire a coach (not just a swim coach, which you do need, but a tri coach)...that should help you get the most out of your potential.
2007-10-18 11:24 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
5 hours is a steep goal for a 1/2 IM. I've gone 5:03 and 5:06 in the last couple of years on difficult courses, so I tend to think I know what it takes to at least get close to the 5h mark.

I looked at your race report from the oly and here is what I think: If you improve your swimming to where you can swim the 1/2 distance in the time your oly took, that's 38 minutes. 8 minutes miles on the run means 1h 45m for that leg. Add 3 minutes for T1 + T 2 and you're left with needing a 2:34 bike leg. That's pretty fast (21.8 mph). I rode 1:03 and 1:05 in oly's this year and only managed a 2:42 at the 1/2. I also think that holding 8 minute miles may be a bit of a challenge if you were just barely able to do that at an oly (there may have been extenuating circumstances that I'm not aware of). So all that taken together leads me to believe that 5h may not be attainable by June 2008.

Another way of looking at this would be that you probably need to take 20-25 minutes off your oly time before you can think about 5h. Do you think that's possible between now and June?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or burst your bubble or anything like that, I'm just telling you what I think. I hope you go out and prove me wrong.

With respect to training advice, I would not use a BT plan, but instead use Triathletes training bible to develop a plan starting in January and culminating with the 1/2. If it were me, I would want my peak volume weeks to be 14-16 hours.

Hope this helps.
2007-10-18 11:26 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please

Congrats at signing up for you first HIM. When you bump up distances you really need to let go of time goals and work on doing the training necessary and enjoy the journey. It is easy to get stuck on a time (I do it) but that takes so much fun out of it. If you finish in 5:01 are you a failure? Nope..you are still wicked fast.

To do your best you need to train smart, nail your nutrition/hydration, and have a good day in all parts of your race. Sounds like you have looked at strengths and weaknesses and have a plan to address them which is excellent..as many folks do in the off season what they enjoy most instead of what needs more work.

I agree with Lauren hire a tri coach and you will improve more than if you train on your own normally. 



Edited by KathyG 2007-10-18 11:27 AM
2007-10-18 11:29 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
My advice, especially with an ambitious goal like yours, is to get a coach.

There's lots of great advice and plans available here and elsewhere, but sometimes it can be contradictory and confusing. When you're working on your own, it can be easy to start doubting what you're doing and keep shifting your emphasis, rather than sticking to a plan and making steady progress.

I'm not saying you can't do it on your own, but for me at least, the peace of mind and confidence having someone else to analyze my strengths and weaknesses, write out the program, and answer my questions was money well spent.
2007-10-18 11:29 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please

A few thoughts:

Swim:  Get the coaching.  Perfect.  Let him/her guide how you should best progress.  But get in the water as often as you can this winter.

Bike:  Keep it up.  Ride lots.  But in the winter if you can't get out to ride as much, do some shorter work on the trainer.  These can be some pretty solid efforts.  Do that and you'll be able to handle hills.

Run:  You pretty much got it there too.  Build up gradually and get the miles on your legs.  Go read your post from yesterday and replace "climbing" with "running". 

 

I used the beginner BT plan for my first HIM.  I agree that it was light on the bike.  My second season I used the Silver/Gold plans (Sprint-to-Olympic Bridge & Oly-to-HIM bridge I think).  I finished with a 4:59 at Timberman that year.

Race however much you're comfortable with beforehand.  A late June oly sounds perfect.  Maybe another sprint after that to get a solid hard workout done.  But mostly, just get the training done consistently.



2007-10-18 11:34 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
I would go so far as to say the BT plan will NOT get you to 5 hour HIM. Better add a whole lot of biking or, better yet, find a different plan.
2007-10-18 11:35 AM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please

stuartjeff - 2007-10-18 11:31 AM  I got the Cyclist Training Bible so I'm using it to help me prepare for the bike. I do need some climbing work but I'm thinking I just need to spend more time riding hills rather than trying to do any intervals or other focused workouts.

The hills at Timberman aren't bad at all - more fun than anything else. This is coming from a girl who trains in South Jersey (i.e, very flat). Lots of time in the saddle and you'll be prepared for them .

Edited to add: I mean, it is a hilly course and that has to be respected, but it's no where near as bad as everyone makes it out to be. It's actually A LOT of fun.



Edited by LaurenSU02 2007-10-18 11:39 AM
2007-10-18 11:38 AM
in reply to: #1013768

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
doublej - 2007-10-18 12:24 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk or burst your bubble or anything like that, I'm just telling you what I think. I hope you go out and prove me wrong.


No this is great info and I appreciate it.

The swim is the wildcard for me. I am REALLY new to swimming and so I expect to be able to make massive gains this winter since I've never been coached and just started swimming in August. I'm slow but I'm not trying yet, I'm just working on form so I'd be surprised if I couldn't do a sub 40 minute 1.2 mile swim by next August. That Oly swim was me spending most of the time kicking with an outstretched arm from my side. It's hard to call what I did swimming in that race.

I feel like the bike still has a lot of room to improve as well. I just started riding in May of this year so I've probably still got some newbie gains yet to be made. I'll also race 10 lbs lighter for the Timberman than I did for my Oly by getting a nice bike and dropping a couple of pounds off my body by then. I really believe that I can maintain 22 mph by then. I could be wrong certainly but I've got a lot more riding to do before I start capping out on speed.

The run in my Oly was killed by horrible cramps in the first 3 miles. I hobbled along at what couldn't have been faster than 9 minute miles. I was eventually able to pick up the pace and really crank out the last half to salvage my time. I've still got a lot to go with running though. I really don't run much at all but every time I go for a run I'm faster than I was last time just because of my cycling workouts. If I get some real miles in my legs I really think that I can settle into a nice 7:40 minute mile race pace even after the swim and bike.

Still, all this is based on confidence, delusions of grandeur, and stubborn will rather than actual data. I completely understand and respect the skepticism. Afterall, you race the pace you train at. I just know that I've got a lot more potential left to develop.

Edited by stuartjeff 2007-10-18 11:46 AM
2007-10-18 12:07 PM
in reply to: #1013795

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Subject: RE: Critique me please

FWIW, I don't think sub-5 is an outlandish goal for you.  Though it will be quite challenging, especially for your first.  And at Timberman which is not a particularly "fast" course.

Swimming is your biggest issue because in 1 year you need to go from "not drowning" to (IMO) a comfortable mid-30s 1.2 mile swim.  It can be done, but will probably require a lot of work in the pool.

And maybe you'll prove me wrong, but I don't think you can expect to ride 22mph at Timberman and back it up with 7:40s on the run.  It's not a terribly difficult course, but it's not fast either.  That bike split would put you right near the top of your AG.  I think you could reach 7:40s on the run with consistent training, but after a much more reasonable bike split.  But you'll figure that out as your training moves along and you end up with a better idea of what kind of goal is realistic.

Anyway, good luck.

2007-10-18 12:21 PM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please

All I will add is ..... respect the distance.  I didn't when I did my first and went into it thinking I could easily break 5.  I had a terrible day and barely broke 6.

Another year of run focused training, and a lot more time in the pool and I broke 5 at the same venue a year later.



2007-10-18 12:28 PM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
I agree that the training plans on here can be a bit light, but I think the plans are geared to just finishing the distance as opposed to placing. The idea of getting a custom plan designed by a coach is a good one. You're a good candidate for a customized plan because you have a good fitness base from other sports and you need to convert that fitness to tri-specific fitness. If you can't afford coaching, then one idea I'll throw out is to do a BT plan the next distance up. I actually did that this past season - I used a beginner Oly distance plan to race a sprint and it worked well. In your case you would be using a full IM plan, which would probably be overkill in some respects. But that's just an idea for you to play around with.
2007-10-18 12:35 PM
in reply to: #1013860

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Subject: RE: Critique me please

or, you can customize your own plan (for free) from the many that are out there. Personnally, I just don't get the virtual coach thing. flame away.

 

MikeTheBear - 2007-10-18 1:28 PM I agree that the training plans on here can be a bit light, but I think the plans are geared to just finishing the distance as opposed to placing. The idea of getting a custom plan designed by a coach is a good one. You're a good candidate for a customized plan because you have a good fitness base from other sports and you need to convert that fitness to tri-specific fitness. If you can't afford coaching, then one idea I'll throw out is to do a BT plan the next distance up. I actually did that this past season - I used a beginner Oly distance plan to race a sprint and it worked well. In your case you would be using a full IM plan, which would probably be overkill in some respects. But that's just an idea for you to play around with.



Edited by rollinbones 2007-10-18 12:36 PM
2007-10-18 12:42 PM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please

I ain't a coach, either, but...you asked.  

Rick's right...Respect the Distance. First HIM I did...36 min swim, 2:29 bike!!! then 10's on the run. Total 5:30 and change. I punked myself due to nutrition and not practicing stringing the events together.

Second...I agree that in the original post it sounds like you're a little complacent - like if you tweak a little here, focus a little more there that you'll get there. 5 is HARD for a first or 2nd year triathlete.  It's gonna take some commitment to get there and some hard pushing.

Lastly, maybe it's just me, but 12 strokes / 25 m seems like they're a little long.  That may be contributing to your breathing (not getting enough chances to get air) and sighting / sinking issue (at the end of your stroke you've stopped gliding and are just decelerating, which magnifies your butt sinking when you sight). But the masters / coach can give you the firm diagnosis.

2007-10-18 12:42 PM
in reply to: #1013872

Subject: RE: Critique me please
rollinbones - 2007-10-18 1:35 PM

or, you can customize your own plan (for free) from the many that are out there. Personnally, I just don't get the virtual coach thing. flame away.

 

MikeTheBear - 2007-10-18 1:28 PM I agree that the training plans on here can be a bit light, but I think the plans are geared to just finishing the distance as opposed to placing. The idea of getting a custom plan designed by a coach is a good one. You're a good candidate for a customized plan because you have a good fitness base from other sports and you need to convert that fitness to tri-specific fitness. If you can't afford coaching, then one idea I'll throw out is to do a BT plan the next distance up. I actually did that this past season - I used a beginner Oly distance plan to race a sprint and it worked well. In your case you would be using a full IM plan, which would probably be overkill in some respects. But that's just an idea for you to play around with.

Well, I think they're useful in a few ways - if you are using them as guidelines and designing your own plan around them, or if you can't afford a "real" coach - as I can't, and I'm sure others can't either. In a perfect world, we'd all hire coaches, but it's not possible for some of us, and esp. if you're first starting out, have never done a race and don't know if you'll even like doing it, it would be a waste of money, imho. In that respect, the virtual training plans are good for beginners to see if they like the sport. I know the standard answer around here to every question is "hire a coach", but really, we're not all made of money, and it might not be a financially solvent idea for some of us. Unless anyone wants to coach me for free I can pay in baked goods...

2007-10-18 12:46 PM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
I'd be willing to consider coaching. It would certainly be helpful to get an unbiased opinion of someone who has trained others towards similar goals. That said, I tried a coach when I started training for my Oly and didn't care for it. I got a guy that I could visit in person who made up workouts for me but I just wasn't getting the level of feedback that I was looking for. I'm a super geeky person who wants to understand the how's and why's of what I am doing. I've read several training and human physiology books and I can understand the lingo so I'd like to be involved in the process. If I could find a coach who was willing to not only prescribe workouts but would also make him or herself available for questions and would give feedback then I'd be far more willing to hire one. Any thoughts on finding somebody like that?


2007-10-18 12:47 PM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
I can only give some free advice *IF* 5 hrs is your main goal (for T-man is a tough one but doable) you would need to build up to train on avg 10-12 hrs a week. The peak week can be anyway between 14-18 hrs (only a few of those) depending on your time available, aerobic base, recovery, etc.

Work on your limiters in particular through the winter. You can do 4-6 week cycles in which 1 sport will be the focus (more frequency/volume/distance) and the other 2 are kept in maintenance mode. Finally you'll also need many goal pace sessions either stand alone sport or transition (brick). The key is going to be consistency; if you can put 12+ weeks of 10+ hrs avg training weeks you will be closer to the goal regardless of the type of sessions. (still the bulk of the sessions will be easy/steady/tempo) Of course you'll need to throw in there some unload/easy weeks, but when you begin to train consistently 10+ hrs a week, your body will let you know when is time to take it easy!

I never seen the BT HIM plan but I would assume it won't be enough for a goal such as yours. (I could be wrong) Of course getting a coach would be better but I am bias!

Good luck and see you at T-man

2007-10-18 12:54 PM
in reply to: #1013661

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
My first advice would be to sign up for the HIM Training Plan (not beginnner though). That may be a gold or silver option but it has some more hours. This is based on my personal experience. I did my first HIM less than 8 months after taking up the sport and I completed a sub-5 in my first HIM with ease by just following the plan. As long as you dedicate yourself to the workouts and use common sense you can do it. Supplment the training with some extra runs or rides when you feel up to it.

Swim: IMO - I would wait on hiring the swim coach. Put some hours in the pool over the winter and focus on your weaknesses. You might want to try some of the readings that are available out there before you invest in a swim coach. I had some breathing issues when I first started but 8 months later I was a strong swimmer and overcame my breathing problems for my first HIM.

Bike : Your bike sounds good and IMO that is the biggest difference going from Olympic to HIM. Keep riding and be prepared to get off the saddle and run.

Run : You have plenty of time to build run mileage as well. You seemed concern that you are at 7:20 over 7.3 miles - you are in good shape as long as you build mileage smartly and get your brick workouts in.

Transitions : Get some early season sprint tri's in to work on them. Experience comes fast with transitions.

I mean no disrespect to previous posters, but save your money on the coach. If you have the cash, get some wheels, gear, or something else. The coaches know what they are talking about but there is plently of info already out there. The only material I have used is from this site and it has gotten me plenty prepared. Respect the distance but don't let others convince you that you should fear it. Just dedicate yourself a couple of hours each day and put a plan together.

2007-10-18 1:01 PM
in reply to: #1013913

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Subject: RE: Critique me please

lmcgraw - 2007-10-18 1:54 PM Swim: IMO - I would wait on hiring the swim coach. Put some hours in the pool over the winter and focus on your weaknesses. You might want to try some of the readings that are available out there before you invest in a swim coach. I had some breathing issues when I first started but 8 months later I was a strong swimmer and overcame my breathing problems for my first HIM. 

But what if during that time in the pool, he just keeps reinforcing bad habits? Swim weaknesses and stroke mistakes are much easier to work on when someone else identifies them for you and tells/shows you how to fix them. A lot of people will be able be able to "get faster" on their already-poor stroke when they're first starting out. But, if he was already planning on getting a swim coach, getting one sooner than later would be much more beneficial. And, a swim coach doesn't have to be a long-term thing. Even a few sessions will help you improve so much more than no sessions.

2007-10-18 1:02 PM
in reply to: #1013895

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Subject: RE: Critique me please
stuartjeff - 2007-10-18 12:46 PM I'd be willing to consider coaching. It would certainly be helpful to get an unbiased opinion of someone who has trained others towards similar goals. That said, I tried a coach when I started training for my Oly and didn't care for it. I got a guy that I could visit in person who made up workouts for me but I just wasn't getting the level of feedback that I was looking for. I'm a super geeky person who wants to understand the how's and why's of what I am doing. I've read several training and human physiology books and I can understand the lingo so I'd like to be involved in the process. If I could find a coach who was willing to not only prescribe workouts but would also make him or herself available for questions and would give feedback then I'd be far more willing to hire one. Any thoughts on finding somebody like that?

*cough, cough* I heard the guys at PBMCoaching are awesome! (See my signature ) But in all seriousness, my coach Kurt Perham coach Alex M&M, the guy who just won the Amateur 1st OA place at Kona. He also trains other pros and AGers. I work with him as coach associate and for now I am offering a discounted fee for BTers until Nov 30th (or until I reach my max). If you want more details PM me…

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