Yes, triathlon bikes are faster (Page 3)

Of course there are exceptions, like the Talon, that has a two-position seat post. The forward position and a TT saddle will rotate you into an aero position. Dropping the front end can also be a challenge, and is no doubt a limiting factor on most road frames. Even on the Kestrel, I have to use an adjustable stem... but a flat stem will work once I get a base bar with no space underneath the pads.

I've experimented with the adjustable stem, and am as low as I can get and still be somewhat comfortable for 80 mi rides. 2 cm lower, and my back hurts right away. At that drop, I look as flat as Dave does (as I ride by store windows), but I was also out of the saddle for 20+ years with a construction injury to my back, so other people with my level of fitness might be able to go comfortably lower. This gives me 12cm of drop. (Can't wait to clean up the cockpit).

I've been thinking I need to drop my front end of my road bike with clip-ons.  It's pretty comfortable in both the road and aero positions, but I feel I need to be in a more aggressive position.   I have three spacer's in right now, and thinking of tinkering with those, by taking one out at a time.

What other three/four things do I need to watch out for if I tinker with this position and get lower?  Move Seat forward (don't know how much room I have to move forward)?  Angle Seat down more?

I'm guessing if you lower the front, your closing the current hip angle and stretching yourself out, which would require a slight adjustment by moving the seat forward and possibly dropping the head of the saddle a bit down.

Not going to quote your entire post, but I can see how you think I changed my mind about my neck when really you just took two posts of different context and placed them next to each other.

The neck is the weakest link for any aerobar position. That falls into the slightly greater degree of athleticism required to ride aerobars.  Your neck will be sore/stiff/painful at first and it will improve over time but probably never be 100%.  My neck would be that way regardless of how I hold my head on the bike.

If you are not able or willing to deal with some degree of neck discomfort, then you are not ready to ride much faster on a bike with aerobars. You are not ready for lower and faster, and that's cool. But not being ready for it doesn't make it not so.  Hence the 70% or so that are candidates for tri bikes, down from the 90% or so that are candidates for road bikes.

My neck has been through degrees of misery when I am in heavy training/tt racing mode. Not many are ready for what I put up with to go fast. I have found my own balance between speed and comfort and it is quite further along the scale than most people are capable of let alone willing to do.  I fully recognize this as a professional fitter. So while many leave with 100 degrees or so of hip angle, not many leave with instructions to wrench their heads down an inch below the level of their back.

I will say that recognizing the speed increase from proper positioning may increase a lot of riders pain tolerance.

What I am saying is that the way my neck feels at times compared to the neck discomfort required to simply ride lower and faster are pretty far apart.

Tom, I truly like you as well. And as I have said many times, we don't even disagree on this issue in an ultimate sense.

We are taking opposite ends of a continuum and trying to relate it to the very broad issue of positioning. I simply find your end to have no relevence here.

Try and keep up here Fred.

"Lower may not be faster" is a relevent statement for Dave Zabriskie and a few others. It is a very special case scenario indeed. But it is correct in a certain context. We agree on this. That context however is not the BT forum. 

On the BT forum, my stance of 99% of tri bike qualified riders being faster if they go lower is much more correct and useful. Tom has agreed with me on this or similar statement in the recent past.

I don't think the Zabriskie scenario is worth a mention here while Tom thinks it is fundamental.

So really, we agree. He's kinda arguing for Newtonion physics as a foundation of Unified Field Theory.

Dave, as I perused these pictures:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Rev3_Knoxville_race_day_2067.html

I was struck by how high some of those pros ride.  The pictures of Brian Flieschmann and Cameron Dye really seem a stark contrast to guys like Jordan Rapp or even the picture of David Thompson.  Yet, those guys who seem to be sitting up high put down some of the fastest bike splits. 

I realize your original post was directed toward the average BT crowd, but what are your thoughts on these pros positions and the fact that they really aren't as low as they could be.  As a FOP AG cyclist(barely), I'm torn on whether I should take the time to worry about trying to drop down any lower, but don't want to waste my time if it's not worth it. 

(Disclaimer - I ride very steep myself and think that for the most part, lower = faster)

I think you can go a bit too far, like Cadel Evans far, with it, and I think it's very possible that he would be faster with a bit LESS drastic front drop. I suppose that could have more to do with the downward slope he generally rides his bars at as opposed to the actual drop though.

A lot of pro's have horrible positions. Just because someone has a fast bike split, does not mean it would not be faster with a better position.

There is a level 3 USAT coach here in Socal that does bike fitting for a lot of pros. He has openly stated and stands by his theory that he will not sacrifice one watt of power or one ounce of comfort for aerodynamics. If a pro gets set up by this guy, for example, they are going to have a powerful and comfortable position, but probably not a very aero one. The result? Well, that depends on who you ask. But again, this is getting into the hair splitting 1% of the field that Dave is talking about and would probably take a tunnel or extensive field testing to quantify.

IMO, I don't understand how you can not take all three into consideration....power, tolerable position and aerodynamics. They all play a roll in going fast....I would also throw bike set up in there as well. I also don't understand if you are a pro, and make your living this way, why you wouldn't make a least one trip a year to the tunnel...considering it's really not that expensive.

Evans doesn't appear to me to be all that steep (he's steep, but not dramatically so).  Yes, there is a huge drop, but he seems to be doing his 'best' to sit up tall in spite of it!

Compare with Cancellara, whose upper body is in a pretty similar position (though Evans appears to the turtling just a tad better) but who seems to be 'scooping' out somewhat less air in front.

(Obviously just the observations of an untrained eye.)

Interesting pics.

The first thing that sicks out to me in these two is that Evans has his elbows way below the top of the stem where Cancellara is above the stem yet the look to be in the same position. 

Their shoulders are much different however.  Evens is lowering his shoulders much more than Cancellara also look at the gap between the tail of the aero helmet and thir backs.

Different bike geometry

Evans is more stretched than Cancellara which allows him to do that.