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2012-02-07 6:09 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
moose441 - 2012-02-07 3:34 AM

jsnowash - 2012-02-06 3:31 AM After 2 years of specific training, I took > 10 minutes off my half mary time.... I guess it depends on what your goals are, and what motivates you personally. CF is not for me, and I personally think their approach can be dangerous (in terms of injury risk) for lots of folks. If it works for you, great, but I personally wouldn't recommend it for most people....

 

Sorry I can't resist. Not saying that following a good traditional training plan is not safe. But CF has shown repeatedly to reduce injuries. That is why the Military, Law Enforcement and Fire Services are implementing CF into or as their main fitness programs in both their academies and continued training of operators. [snip] 



Yep... this looks pretty safe...

I assume (hope?) the groups you mentioned have competent trainers making sure they are performing the lifts correctly, and also hopefully scaling exercises appropriately and make sure individuals are ready to progress before adding weight, etc. My injury concern is mainly for people who go to the Crossfit website, look up the WOD, try to do it on their own without no proper training, and attempt to pick up something really heavy and end up in a pile on the floor. And as the video above shows, it appears that even some supervised workouts can get pretty dicey....

Apparently someone at the The Marine Corps Gazette Blog agrees with me.

Some people might come to Crossfit with enough knowledge to do the workouts safely, but I imagine there are many of people who hear the hype and decide to give it a go on their own without proper instruction, and attempt something they just can't handle. I know there are videos showing proper form, and "Brand X" scaled workouts, but these are a far cry from proper training and progression. The randomness of the program also concerns me from an injury standpoint. My concern is not really with the exercises themselves, it's in the unstructured, unsupervised way they're "prescribed". There can definitely be benefits to incorporating the kind of high intensity explosive work Crossfit pushes, I just think there are much safer ways to incorporate that kind of training into an exercise program for your average Joe. If it's working for you, that's great. As many have said, do whatever exercise program works for you, and if you're happy with the results, then by all means, stick with it. We all have our own goals, and there's no one right way to get there. But I stand by my concern about injury as it relates to Crossfit, especially for those trying to implement the program on their own.



2012-02-07 6:12 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

CF may not be the answer for the Elite tri "pro" who wins the Hawaii ironman but for the average person wanting health, physical fitness and total body fitness, cross training s/b/r with cross fit may be an option.  It may be especially good for people out of town working who may not have a swim option.

Like the poster said, he did this for time constraints and is in good health.

My hat is off to him for trying...if U never try, U will never know.

2012-02-07 6:35 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

jsnowash - 2012-02-07 7:09 AM

Yep... this looks pretty safe... 

I'm really curious about how that dog at 2:20 lost its leg. Who lets a dog walk around a gym like that?

2012-02-07 6:41 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

I don't do CF, I have looked at it and decided it wasn't for me. However, I can understand why it would appeal to a lot of people. As the OP said he was looking for overall fitness. By all indications he has achieved that.

 

As far as injuries go, I think we could all pick out examples of physical activities that have led to injury including CF and s/b/r. Here on BT there is even a section for people to talk about their injuries. Go into that forum sometime and you will see everything from head to toe that is ailing people and it's not from CF. My point is that the OP wasn't proposing CF as a better way to achieve PR's in triathlons he was simply saying he found he could keep his running times close while still getting overall fitness and that was his goal. As I stated in an earlier post, if you have been around here for a while you could see some of the comments coming.

 

2012-02-07 6:47 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
BernardDogs - 2012-02-07 7:35 AM

jsnowash - 2012-02-07 7:09 AM

Yep... this looks pretty safe... 

I'm really curious about how that dog at 2:20 lost its leg. Who lets a dog walk around a gym like that?



Sombebody dropped a heavy weight on him??

2012-02-07 6:48 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
jsnowash - 2012-02-07 7:47 AM
BernardDogs - 2012-02-07 7:35 AM

jsnowash - 2012-02-07 7:09 AM

Yep... this looks pretty safe... 

I'm really curious about how that dog at 2:20 lost its leg. Who lets a dog walk around a gym like that?

Sombebody dropped a heavy weight on him??

 

I'm not convinced you need the red font there.



2012-02-07 6:49 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

gsmacleod - 2012-02-07 1:26 PM
paulieman - 2012-02-07 6:59 AM Frankly, I have never understood the reaction to Crossfit on this site. There are many ways to prepare for a triathlon and the key for a beginner, in my view, is to keep it interesting and incorporate things we enjoy. Some people, myself included, enjoy lifting weights.
I believe that the reaction is due to a couple of factors: 1) The claims by the creator of CF who said it was a superior way to train for triathlon 2) Claims by coaches that the CF/CFE approach is superior and then a long list of athletes who underperformed while following the protocols Shane

I see your point and I am turned off by hype and arrogance, but is this arrogance limited to CF? It seems that many of the training systems claim to be better/superior. Marketing a new system otherwise would not draw in the masses. 

2012-02-07 6:55 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
paulieman - 2012-02-07 8:49 AM

I see your point and I am turned off by hype and arrogance, but is this arrogance limited to CF? It seems that many of the training systems claim to be better/superior. Marketing a new system otherwise would not draw in the masses.


It is not limited to CF, however it was the founder of CF who said that if he could take Macca and put him on a CF protocol that he would have even better results.

Personally I have an issue when anyone tries to sell a system or product as an panacea; the sporting world is full of products and systems that make outlandish claims and then fail to back them up. However, many of these same products and systems have an almost cult like following who will defend the efficacy of the system/product despite and complete lack of evidence.

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2012-02-07 7:38 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

gsmacleod - 2012-02-07 6:21 AM
moose441 - 2012-02-07 4:34 AM But CF has shown repeatedly to reduce injuries.
Do you have a source for this? Thanks! Shane

I watched a crossfit competition this past weekend. The girl I saw who dislocated her shoulder doing a turkish lift might disagree with moose's statement. Oooowwwww. I still cringe just thinking about it!

2012-02-07 9:46 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
jsnowash - 2012-02-07 6:09 AM
moose441 - 2012-02-07 3:34 AM

jsnowash - 2012-02-06 3:31 AM After 2 years of specific training, I took > 10 minutes off my half mary time.... I guess it depends on what your goals are, and what motivates you personally. CF is not for me, and I personally think their approach can be dangerous (in terms of injury risk) for lots of folks. If it works for you, great, but I personally wouldn't recommend it for most people....

 

Sorry I can't resist. Not saying that following a good traditional training plan is not safe. But CF has shown repeatedly to reduce injuries. That is why the Military, Law Enforcement and Fire Services are implementing CF into or as their main fitness programs in both their academies and continued training of operators. [snip] 

Yep... this looks pretty safe... I assume (hope?) the groups you mentioned have competent trainers making sure they are performing the lifts correctly, and also hopefully scaling exercises appropriately and make sure individuals are ready to progress before adding weight, etc. My injury concern is mainly for people who go to the Crossfit website, look up the WOD, try to do it on their own without no proper training, and attempt to pick up something really heavy and end up in a pile on the floor. And as the video above shows, it appears that even some supervised workouts can get pretty dicey.... Apparently someone at the The Marine Corps Gazette Blog agrees with me. Some people might come to Crossfit with enough knowledge to do the workouts safely, but I imagine there are many of people who hear the hype and decide to give it a go on their own without proper instruction, and attempt something they just can't handle. I know there are videos showing proper form, and "Brand X" scaled workouts, but these are a far cry from proper training and progression. The randomness of the program also concerns me from an injury standpoint. My concern is not really with the exercises themselves, it's in the unstructured, unsupervised way they're "prescribed". There can definitely be benefits to incorporating the kind of high intensity explosive work Crossfit pushes, I just think there are much safer ways to incorporate that kind of training into an exercise program for your average Joe. If it's working for you, that's great. As many have said, do whatever exercise program works for you, and if you're happy with the results, then by all means, stick with it. We all have our own goals, and there's no one right way to get there. But I stand by my concern about injury as it relates to Crossfit, especially for those trying to implement the program on their own.

 

I agree completely.  I have always been kind of drawn to the crossfit gym itself.  The climbing ropes, the bumper plates, sand bags and gymnastic rings.  It really seems like they have a lot of good equipment to do a lot of fun and very beneficial exercises.

I have never done crossfit however for the reasons listed above.  I'm a firm believer in a well constructed program with scheduled progression and appropriate rest, as well as controlled exercises with proper form, and it really doesn't seem that crossfit provides that.  I'm a believer that when lifting heavy, when form breaks down the set is over, a rep with poor form is a missed rep.  I also have to admit that I have always gotten a Cult like vibe from its practitioners which deters me also.

Its really too bad because I really think that with some tweaks to provide a more structured program, a plan for controlled and progressive advancement and professional instruction for the lifts and exercises it would be one heck of a program that I could really see getting into.

2012-02-07 11:40 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
There are many good crossfit trainers out there who know how to program and emphasize proper form over a better WOD time or more weight.

But when you allow ANYONE to open a box after only attending a weekend seminar, you get many more trainers out there who do more harm than good. Add to that crossfit's attitude towards programming is to be ready for the "unknown and unknowable" you get workouts that could have been pulled out of a hat. Many CF trainers will post everyone's workout performances on a whiteboard to promote competition and motivation but then many people sacrifice proper form in order to get a better time and lifting heavier weight.

The other thing that turns people off about CF is that if you're not folowing their recommendations you're doing it wrong. If you're not running POSE method or eating Paleo or wearing Innov8 shoes or you wear gloves then you're training is sh-t.

I am all for adding strength and conditioning to traithlon training. In fact, I consider myself a gym rat who participtates in races. Just make sure you find yourself a trainer who knows his/her stuff. If you are already doing 6 interval S/B/R workouts a week and your trainer wants you to do 3 or more metabolic conditioning workouts (metcons), find a new trainer.


2012-02-07 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
jsnowash - 2012-02-07 6:09 AM

 Yep... this looks pretty safe...  

Yeah...about as safe as those people stumbling around tripping and falling at the end of the Ironman marathon. That's not fitness either...

I'd also like to point out that in both CrossFit and Triathlon, there are morons who train improperly and get injured. There are also times in both when people get hurt busting there and things happen. You've just got to be smart about your training and keep the risks lower.

I do CrossFit. I do scale workouts to fit my goals. This year, my ultimate goal is Ironman Arizona. As I build my training plan for that, I will work with my trainer at Network Fitness CrossFit to make sure the CrossFit workouts I am doing and the weights I am using help me get stronger and faster as an endurance athlete. I'm focused on killing every workout, but, not at the expense of hurting myself or becoming so worn down that I can't give 100% in my SBR workouts.

This stuff is common sense, folks. Just step back and chill out. Just as you would ask a CrossFitter to actually hop on a bike and see what a century ride is all about, when he tells you he can get more fit doing only CFE bike workouts, you should also give CrossFit a chance before you judge the philosophy and training style based on the opinions and arrogant statements of of a few.

If anyone is in SoCal, feel free to message me. I'd be happy to help you give it a shot.

2012-02-07 12:53 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

joker70 - 2012-02-07 11:40 AM There are many good crossfit trainers out there who know how to program and emphasize proper form over a better WOD time or more weight. But when you allow ANYONE to open a box after only attending a weekend seminar, you get many more trainers out there who do more harm than good. Add to that crossfit's attitude towards programming is to be ready for the "unknown and unknowable" you get workouts that could have been pulled out of a hat. Many CF trainers will post everyone's workout performances on a whiteboard to promote competition and motivation but then many people sacrifice proper form in order to get a better time and lifting heavier weight. The other thing that turns people off about CF is that if you're not folowing their recommendations you're doing it wrong. If you're not running POSE method or eating Paleo or wearing Innov8 shoes or you wear gloves then you're training is sh-t. I am all for adding strength and conditioning to traithlon training. In fact, I consider myself a gym rat who participtates in races. Just make sure you find yourself a trainer who knows his/her stuff. If you are already doing 6 interval S/B/R workouts a week and your trainer wants you to do 3 or more metabolic conditioning workouts (metcons), find a new trainer.

Agree with all of this.

1 - You need to make sure you are working on technique first and going faster/heavier later. Our trainers stop us mid-WOD and correct form. They coach us first. That's most important. 

2 - I do think the comment about CrossFitters saying you're wrong and that your training is if you're not doing it their way is a bit of a generalization. Kind of sounds like many of the BTers on this board give the same treatment to anyone who mentions CrossFit. (Not you, of course.)

2012-02-07 1:12 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
bencoy - 2012-02-07 12:57 PM
jsnowash - 2012-02-07 6:09 AM

 Yep... this looks pretty safe...  

Yeah...about as safe as those people stumbling around tripping and falling at the end of the Ironman marathon. That's not fitness either...

I'd also like to point out that in both CrossFit and Triathlon, there are morons who train improperly and get injured. There are also times in both when people get hurt busting there and things happen. You've just got to be smart about your training and keep the risks lower.

I do CrossFit. I do scale workouts to fit my goals. This year, my ultimate goal is Ironman Arizona. As I build my training plan for that, I will work with my trainer at Network Fitness CrossFit to make sure the CrossFit workouts I am doing and the weights I am using help me get stronger and faster as an endurance athlete. I'm focused on killing every workout, but, not at the expense of hurting myself or becoming so worn down that I can't give 100% in my SBR workouts.

This stuff is common sense, folks. Just step back and chill out. Just as you would ask a CrossFitter to actually hop on a bike and see what a century ride is all about, when he tells you he can get more fit doing only CFE bike workouts, you should also give CrossFit a chance before you judge the philosophy and training style based on the opinions and arrogant statements of of a few.

If anyone is in SoCal, feel free to message me. I'd be happy to help you give it a shot.

Maybe its an issue of semantics - but I don't think anyone would argue that if done correctly Crossfit will make you very fit.  Likely more all around fit than strict triathlon training.  Again, the issue is that often people present themselves as quitting strict SBR training - doing Crossfit, and asserting that they are as fast or faster with less running/biking/swimming (pick one or all three).  The OP made that same assertion with regard to running stating that Crossfit allowed him to quit his long run and still perform at same level of HM. 

Seeing as this is Beginner Traithlete - I do think there are issues with these types of assertions.  If you are doing Sprints and Olympics I imagine that Crossfit or CFE will suffice to prepare you to race.  I would believe that at longer distances you would be doing a Newbie a disservice in convincing them they do not need to focus on SBR to be prepared for a HIM or IM.  Just my two cents.

2012-02-07 1:32 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

Recently came across this site - http://crossfitironman.com/

A group of triathletes/crossfitters who are training for Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and blogging about it. Should be interesting to follow.

At least with a consistent update on what they're doing and what progress they have we will have a full picture to look at from the extreme end of things.

2012-02-07 2:01 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
bencoy - 2012-02-07 2:32 PM

Recently came across this site - http://crossfitironman.com/

A group of triathletes/crossfitters who are training for Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and blogging about it. Should be interesting to follow.

At least with a consistent update on what they're doing and what progress they have we will have a full picture to look at from the extreme end of things.

Straight from their website:

"You may then be asking the question, what then, is our experiment?  Well, we believe there is another way to train.  We believe there is a better way to train."

I think only one of them has completed endurance events (marathons and an ironman) in the past.  It would be interesting to see her results and see how she does utilizing CFE. 

 



2012-02-07 2:47 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
bencoy - 2012-02-07 9:53 AM
I do think the comment about CrossFitters saying you're wrong and that your training is if you're not doing it their way is a bit of a generalization. Kind of sounds like many of the BTers on this board give the same treatment to anyone who mentions CrossFit. (Not you, of course.)



There is big difference between random members on BT and Brian Mackenzie, the head of Crossfit Endurance, who is calling other programs sh*t and claiming that he can make Ryan Hall a better marathoner with 2 years of CFE. The same Brian Mackenzie who couldn't finish the ultramarathons he claimed he would CRUSH.

You also have Max Wunderle, one of CFE's top coaches, who went on BT and claimed that all his athletes were crushing their IM PR's with NO LSD and never going below 85% effort. But when you checked all the athletes blogs, there were plenty of long bike rides and sub-anaerobic training. That to me is disingenuous, especially when you consider how much people invest themselves in this sport.
2012-02-07 2:58 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

joker70 - 2012-02-07 2:47 PM
bencoy - 2012-02-07 9:53 AM I do think the comment about CrossFitters saying you're wrong and that your training is if you're not doing it their way is a bit of a generalization. Kind of sounds like many of the BTers on this board give the same treatment to anyone who mentions CrossFit. (Not you, of course.)
There is big difference between random members on BT and Brian Mackenzie, the head of Crossfit Endurance, who is calling other programs sh*t and claiming that he can make Ryan Hall a better marathoner with 2 years of CFE. The same Brian Mackenzie who couldn't finish the ultramarathons he claimed he would CRUSH. You also have Max Wunderle, one of CFE's top coaches, who went on BT and claimed that all his athletes were crushing their IM PR's with NO LSD and never going below 85% effort. But when you checked all the athletes blogs, there were plenty of long bike rides and sub-anaerobic training. That to me is disingenuous, especially when you consider how much people invest themselves in this sport.

The claims are ridiculous, yes. Probably exagerated for the sake of generating buzz as well though...not that it's an excuse.

I guess my point was just that these "random members of BT" and Brian McKenzie are both being closed-minded. Neither of them should be taken as the only representation of their respective communities. 

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2012-02-07 5:05 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

joker70 - 2012-02-07 12:40 PM There are many good crossfit trainers out there who know how to program and emphasize proper form over a better WOD time or more weight. But when you allow ANYONE to open a box after only attending a weekend seminar, you get many more trainers out there who do more harm than good. Add to that crossfit's attitude towards programming is to be ready for the "unknown and unknowable" you get workouts that could have been pulled out of a hat. Many CF trainers will post everyone's workout performances on a whiteboard to promote competition and motivation but then many people sacrifice proper form in order to get a better time and lifting heavier weight. The other thing that turns people off about CF is that if you're not folowing their recommendations you're doing it wrong. If you're not running POSE method or eating Paleo or wearing Innov8 shoes or you wear gloves then you're training is sh-t. I am all for adding strength and conditioning to traithlon training. In fact, I consider myself a gym rat who participtates in races. Just make sure you find yourself a trainer who knows his/her stuff. If you are already doing 6 interval S/B/R workouts a week and your trainer wants you to do 3 or more metabolic conditioning workouts (metcons), find a new trainer.

I would agree with what you have said.

My family has had 3 folks doing CF for over 2 years. I've seen lots of new coaches come to the box to coach with just a weekend of training after doing CF for few months. Really?

The sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle competition to do lifts fast and lift heavy is part of the My vibe at CF gyms.

My husband is 50 and kept getting injured in his first 18 months of CF. Coaches would push him to lift heavier weights than he wanted. He has switched to a different CF gym closer to home, and they encourage him to be more cautious, lift lighter weights correctly and listen to his body. Since the switch he has stayed injury free.

When I did CF the coaches kept trying to talk me into doing CFE. One went to a weekend certification for CF Endurance and thought I should try it for IM.  I'd bring up some concerns I had about the program, and he always had a snappy response.  If you don't try it how will you know that is it not a better way.

I ended up contacting an IM triathlete who owns a CF box and asking him some questions. His conclusion was CF and CFE is great for Sprint and Oly folks, but for HIM and IM you needed to do longer lower intensity workouts as well as CF.

The box's push for me to conform to what they thought was right in all things turned me off. Tri training and training for IM was more important and I was tired of getting little niggling injuries and excessive soreness to the workouts that interfered with tri training. I asked to be given the WOD so I could integrate CF into Tri training better and they said they would with a hitch about giving CFE a try. Despite asking many times they never would give me the schedule.

CF is fun but risk of injury is there. Not all coaches are qualified to teach Olympic lifting well.

I've spent 2 days out of last 3 weeks at CF competitions to support my family. My husband loves CF but admits they have some faults pretty much in line with what joker posted above.

2012-02-07 5:30 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
bencoy - 2012-02-07 1:57 PM

This stuff is common sense, folks. Just step back and chill out. Just as you would ask a CrossFitter to actually hop on a bike and see what a century ride is all about, when he tells you he can get more fit doing only CFE bike workouts, you should also give CrossFit a chance before you judge the philosophy and training style based on the opinions and arrogant statements of of a few.


I would argue that the common sense approach would be to trust evidence based training protocols and, when someone comes along with a new program that they claim is far superior to what everyone else is doing, that you wait for the evidence before jumping on board. If the training protocol is not supported by evidence and flies in the face of established exercise physiology, then the onus is on the new protocol to prove itself. If it is indeed superior to other methods, the proof should be quickly forth coming.

So far, when it comes to endurance performance, CF and CFE have been long on promises and short on results.

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2012-02-07 5:45 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience

gsmacleod - 2012-02-07 5:30 PM
bencoy - 2012-02-07 1:57 PM This stuff is common sense, folks. Just step back and chill out. Just as you would ask a CrossFitter to actually hop on a bike and see what a century ride is all about, when he tells you he can get more fit doing only CFE bike workouts, you should also give CrossFit a chance before you judge the philosophy and training style based on the opinions and arrogant statements of of a few.
I would argue that the common sense approach would be to trust evidence based training protocols and, when someone comes along with a new program that they claim is far superior to what everyone else is doing, that you wait for the evidence before jumping on board. If the training protocol is not supported by evidence and flies in the face of established exercise physiology, then the onus is on the new protocol to prove itself. If it is indeed superior to other methods, the proof should be quickly forth coming. So far, when it comes to endurance performance, CF and CFE have been long on promises and short on results. Shane

My common sense common was referring to either extreme...all CF and no aerobic LSD training or vice versa. You can incorporate both and get results. As an average, age grouper I have. Results may very...

2012-02-07 6:17 PM
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Subject: RE: My Crossfit Training Result/Experience
bencoy - 2012-02-07 7:45 PM

My common sense common was referring to either extreme...all CF and no aerobic LSD training or vice versa. You can incorporate both and get results. As an average, age grouper I have. Results may very...


You can do both and be able to perform both CF type workouts and sbr. However, if one's goal is to be the fastest triathlete they can, then I would argue that CF/CFE have little to no place in a training plan. It all depends on the fitness goals of the athlete.

However, while I haven't heard a triathlete claim that sbr is the most effective way to train for the CF games, I've heard lots of CFers claim that their method is superior to train for triathlon which is simply absurd.

Shane
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