Another look at "Body Type"

I love hearing this from the guys in my AG. 

I'm in the same boat, built like a work horse, and in my case with short arms and legs. Do I feel like I have any chance of ever winning in my AG, no, but what I love about this sport, is that it does not matter.

I started training for this as a tool to help me loose more weight, I remember telling my wife, first a Sprint, then an Oly and that's as far as it goes. Too old for anything connected to Iron Man, I'm not that crazy. 

After training for only 3 1/2 months, I am hooked. My only goal, time wise, is to not finish last in my AG. My main goal now is to reach where I would never have thought to reach before. I will be 50 by the time it happens, but I now believe that one day, something Iron Man will be connected to my name.

Can I compete with this body type, probably not. Can I compete against myself and reach a level I never thought possible. In this sport yes.

I'm in the same boat.  Had I been born a boy, I would have made a hell of a running back.  As a woman, I had to be satisfied with playing rugby (a sport with even less of a following than tri...at least in the US).

It's frustrating for me to be barely a mediocre AG triathlete.  I'm used to being the girl picked first for teams (over many boys) or the one who is looked up to to lead when coaches were absent for some reason.  Now, all my local friends who only know me as a triathlete think of me as their 'slow' friend.  It's a huge change of perspective for someone who was always one of the most athletic of her friends.

I do like tri because I love competition and I love having three sports in which to train, but my recent injury forcing me to sit out the 2012 race season is really forcing me to rethink the sport as a good fit for me.  Shame on me, I know!

I think you can change quite a bit through training but I'm sure some of the structure (ie slow of fast twitch) is predetermined.

For the last four years I was rowing quite intensively and I weighed about 100kg at 6'8", I was quite lean but still heavy compared to my team mates. Rowing is an endurance sport when you're doing your km's in winter, but the core business of racing is high intensity for no longer than 6 minutes, so you definitely need fast twitch muscles. And I guess you need quite large muscles for this. Now about half a year later I've lost about 8 kg, some of it muscle and some of it fat. 

This is just a n=1 and I'm about 15 years younger (and not built like a linebacker to begin with, I don't really think my posture has any place on the football field, maybe a WR or QB?) but you can do alot with targeted practice I've noticed. But you can't change your genes (yet), that much is true I guess

I'll stir the pot back.

Your DNA is not preventing you from having a 'good day'.  That's your brain or will.

Want to train your body to be 'more like an endurance athlete'?  Then train like one.  Do so for a long time (remember, it's all about endurance).  No one said everybody will be able to attain 'elite' status.  But I guarantee you that your 'body-type' is far less a limiter than other items in your life.

I am going to have to agree with this completely.  I am 5'6 and 178lbs right now.  Athena, yes.  Dang proud of it..YES!  I trained my butt off for my first one, and came in 2nd in age group and 25th overall.  

Yeah, your slow at first your body is building a fitness level.  You cannot limit yourself to thinking that just because someone is "skinnier" or "looks" like they are in better shape than you, doesn't always equate.  I have run by people who are thinner and therefore should be able to outrun me, right? Nope. Yeah, it's good for weight loss, but the mental aspect of it is unmeasurable.  

If I go out thinking that someone is going to beat me because I don't have the right body shape, then they already have.  If I go out there and train, eat right, and run my race, I am NEVER disappointed in what happens.  I refuse to defeat myself and give in to the gremlins that can invade your mind.  

Yeah, some people are out there and doing it as an "elite" athlete.  Why would I compare myself to them?  I do it because I love it, I love the way it makes me feel about myself.  I would hope that even the person who comes in DFL would be proud of themselves for crossing that line.   

I have been a competitive athlete all throughout college, and am done with competing against others.  I am now competing against me to find out about myself.  I don't have limits, and neither do you.  

John, I'm going to respect your persepctive but take you to task on it.

Here's why:

• When I was a kid I was so obese they put me in a special eduaction phys ed program.
• Since then I've won 4 state cycling championsions, numerous AG's in local tris, done well over 200 tris and raced all over the world; Ironmans, Eco-Challenge, Raid Gauloisies... I also maxed the APRT numerous times (Army Physical Readiness Test) and was the Honor Graduate from my initial military schooling.
• I can't afford to accept limitations. I'm a stroke survivor, heart implant recipient, recovered back injury survivor and numerous, numerous other instances when a medical doctor told me, "No more running, cycling, swimming... you're done."

A close friend of mine was never a gifted athlete. He finished 9 Tours de France on Armstrong's team. He always told us, on morning rides, "I've never been an athlete, but I've also never given up on trying".

Empiracle and anecdotal literature suggests we become who we strive to. It's the human miracle.

I fight my weight to this day and train at a pretty substantial volume just to break even. It's the way it has to be for me.

Now, that is not to say I do not respect your observations Sir, as I most certainly do. And I also appreciate your persepctive.

Arthur C. Clarke once said, "We each create our own reality". You and I have crafted different ones, you self-actualized (Maslow...) in yours, and me in mine... As such, we shall be good neighbors.

I don't like this premise at all.  I'm not a small person by any stretch (6"1', 225LBS) and I carry a lot of muscle.  In short, I look more like a football player (which I was) rather than an endurance athlete.  In the last two years, I've ran 4 full marthons and about 6 halves.  When I tell people what I've done or why I'm sore on a day, they can't believe that someone my size does this.  The usual quote is "you look more like a football player rather than a runner"  That fires me up!  It motivates me to have someone look at how I'm built and go "how in the heck does he do that!!??"  It makes me even happier when I beat people who look more like "endurance athletes" than I do.

I agree with the poster above me; if you want something, train like it.  I had to stop training like a weightlifter to improve my running the last few years.  I've had to stop lifting as much as I'd like to improve on my swimming....so I can try out my first tri this summer.  Next on my agenda is my diet.  I have to do an extremely strict diet to lose weight and BF.  Ideally, that'll help me reduce the pounding I put on my body for running/biking/swimming.  Will it work....time will tell but its what I think I have to do to train the best I can for this.  I watched a co-worker who was overweight diet and work hard and competed in a bodybuilding competition in less than a year.  Some may say that's apples vs. oranges...my point is that hard work and dedication can get you a long way!

Reading this makes me want to ask a question...  And I hope I can organize it to make sense...

It SEEMS that people are saying they don't have the DNA to be an endurance athlete...  But what makes an endurance athlete?  Does being an endurance athlete mean you have to win your AG?

All I'm saying, is I "think" I'm an endurance athlete.  Does my body suggest that?  Probably not.  At 6'7", 230lbs, I don't look like your typical AG winning triathlete...  BUT, I have done 3 Ironman races, a couple marathons, etc.  I think that just doing them, makes me an endurance athlete, no?  How many people with the "typical" looking body type boast that?

I would hate to think I have to win my AG to be considered to have the right DNA - or something along those lines.

I don't doubt that for a minute.  

But if you are in a body type more suited to one sport than another, wouldn't it make sense to stick to the one you would be best at (assuming enjoyment factor is the same, of course)?  I mean, my super skinny tall brother didn't go out for the football team with good reason.   

By the same reasoning, someone who sucks at math doesn't go out to try and get a degree in engineering, right?

I'm not saying that it can't be done.  Not at all.  In fact, I'm super pleased (or I was) with the progress I made with my running and I was so very happy to have gotten to a point where I really enjoyed it.  But, as a natural non-endurance athlete with a talent for catching a ball and building fast-twitch muscle, it can't help but question, from time to time, whether I'd be better suited to some other type of sport.

There's a woman on my tri team who is built more muscular rather than "Chrissie Wellington skinny", and she came in 2nd overall for AG women, 6th overall (including the pros) for women in an IM last year. 

I have to agree with the posters who said being built a certain way doesn't guarantee success/failure in this sport.  It MAY help in some cases, but if you have the drive and put in the work you can get where you want to go.

I was a pretty chubby kid growing up and never thought of myself as an athlete.  The amount I've accomplished over the last few seasons has completely changed my mindset.

The BMI scale is extremely flawed and isn't going to be a good system for anyone with any muscle mass on their frame.  yes from what you say it seems you have the genes of a body builder, which is actually extremely rare, as most people are genetically built for endurance events.  

sounds like you are doing tri's because you enjoy them not because you win them, so keep having fun.

Well there's no *need* for triathlons at all, except if you happen to enjoy them. And if you enjoy them, more than likely if you're *capable* of producing bursts of speed, strength, and agility, you probably enjoy those, too. Dunno about you, but I REALLY enjoy going fast.

 As others have pointed out already, your body is less and less the difference and your mind and spirit more and more the difference. A good friend of mine has the same appearance as Chris McCormack- height, build, crazy sharp muscle tone, etc - but he readily admits he's nowhere even close to Macca's ability. I've read it said by Eddy Merckx, Chrissie Wellington, Lance Armstrong....over and over, endurance atheletes are separated by their ability to control their mind. We ALL have the same internal governor that says, "Stop" or "Ow". It's lying. You have to learn how bad its lying - that's training. You sound like me, your body is a nasty, nasty, dirty, habitual liar. It hardly ever tells me the truth, except when it comes to hunger and thirst. On pain and fatigue, all it does it lie. I now expect the first mile of a run to be hard and burning, with alarms going off everywhere because I know that BS is over with in mile 2, and downright nice feeling from mile 3 and then on in. The first hill on a bike, same deal - on fire...then, calm and strong forever. Swim? eh, still not used to getting punched while swimming. I'll get back to you on that.

Just a little stirring the pot on a Wednesday morning, I guess

Me too.

I agree that you should not let your body type stop you from reaching higher goals, and I spent my youth proving it to myself by putting twice the amount of work then most of the other guys.

What I'm saying is that at 47 years of age, a beautiful family and a great life, my idea of success has changed. I will not let my short and chunky body stop me from reaching my goals. The goals have changed and winning is not that important any more. 

Part of this new understanding came from realising that I can't push that body as I used to. It breaks down a lot more easily 

So now I prefer the idea of long time success, moving to higher levels of challenges, for which I need to improve slowly and build a base. Luckily, Triathlon is a perfect sport for this line of thinking.

There are a number of "tall, skinny kids" enshrined in Canton today.  Not saying your brother ever had the chance to be one of them, but looking at a person and saying "they'd never be a good xxxxxxx because of their body type" is sketchy, at best.  Same with "sucking" at math.  It's true some seem to have an aptitude for it.  It's also true that pretty much anybody can work hard and get better at it--certainly good enough to get an engineering degree.  Now, whether they'd enjoy the challenge of pursuing something that does not feel 'natural' to them is another issue. 

Many people, upon discovering they have an 'aptitude' for something, often enjoy doing more of it.  Which of course makes them better at it.  Sometimes pushing them to do even more of it.  A virtuous circle.  Other times, you will find people that appear to have little apptitude for their pursuit (at least relative to those around them).  But, for some reason they soldier on.  And, one day, they are suddenly quite good at that pursuit.  There are quite a few endurance athletes that could fit this bill.

I have no idea if you'd be 'better suited' for another sport.  I'm not even exactly sure what you mean by that.  Assuming 'enjoyment factor' is the same, it wouldn't seem to matter to me. 

Maybe this is more of what I am getting at.  And you are right, body type isn't really the end-all-be-all determination.  I know plenty of tall guys who suck at basketball.

I don't feel like I have an aptitude for endurance sports, and therefore I have to work hard at it to just be mediocre.  So every once in awhile (like now when I haven't been able to bike or run for months), I question my choice of sport.  I suppose it's hard to justify all that work to be 'meh' at something when I am forced to take a year off racing (the part I enjoy the most).

Sorry - projecting my own issues into a thread.... I'll bow out now...

JohnP_NY - 2012-05-16 1:44 PM Ah yes, a great debate for a Wednesday... I agree most folks can get out there and do the course. For the most part, I can too. Its great that I can, and its fun. Its all good. Depending on the field, if its not drawing a larger number of elite types, I might even have a chance at an AG place, only a good cool day. But, before my head gets inflated, lets bring this back down to earth. I'll never be in the lead pack on a big race. And much of that is pre-determined based on the run. So what type of imporvements are possible here? Can I hammer out a 31:00 10 k or a 2:30 marathon? No, it will never happen, never could, and I am almost convinced that no amount of physical and mental preparation could ever make that happen. By me there is a 10k that gets some of the world class and elites to run. Very hilly course in the heat of June. Who wins? sub 30 or even sub 29? The guys from Kenya and Ethiopia. Pretty much always. Are they just stronger willed than us lazy Americans? I'll tell you, body types all look strinkingly similar. Next time I do that race i'll, ask one of them if they were ever a pudgy fat kid, or if they ever considered a pro career in wrestling or rugby Triathlon is quite a bit different, but I just dont see anyone up in the lead pack on a big race who looks like a fullback. ...and if they are up there by T2, they often get smoked on the run. I've heard of events that sound sort of like triathlons, a buddy does them, where between running or biking or kayaking you get points for how many times you can bench press your own weight. Maybe I'll do that? Nah, sounds too complicated, I'm ok with not winning

While doing the Austin Marathon, I met one of the elite runners from Kenya.  From his own mouth, this is what he told me:  Because interest in running is so high, competition to make traveling squads is intense, and Kenyan training regimes are notoriously difficult. And many young Kenyans view distance running as a ticket out of poverty. If they take top prize at the NYC Marathon, they are literally rich by their standards when they return home.  

Even Kip Keino stated that a study done in 2000 by Danish Sports Science who suggested it was their "birdlike legs" and genetics, incensed him so bad because he said the results were an affront to the Kenyan work ethic.  

So I would have to say that they have MANY factors for why they run, and some of them will discount the genetics theory as well.  

JohnP_NY - 2012-05-16 8:03 AM ...I sometimes wonder if there is a way to train my body to be more like an endruance athlete. I can lose another 10 pounds, which would put me in single digits of % body fat, and that would make me faster over the longer runs, but for what? Can I change my muscle composition? Can I get rid of the muscle mass in my arms, shoulders and quads? Probably not. Just a little stirring the pot on a Wednesday morning, I guess

Yes you can train your body to be more like an endurance athlete.  Yes you can change your muscle composition.  Yes you can get rid of muscle mass in your arms, shoulders and quads.

No doubt about it.  In a calorie deficit you will lose both muscle and fat.  The amount of muscle you lose relative to fat increases as your bodyfat % gets lower.  Diet strictly, for long enough while doing endurance training and the muscle will melt off your body.

JohnP_NY - 2012-05-16 2:30 PM

ecozenmama - 2012-05-16 2:03 PM

JohnP_NY - 2012-05-16 1:44 PM Ah yes, a great debate for a Wednesday... I agree most folks can get out there and do the course. For the most part, I can too. Its great that I can, and its fun. Its all good. Depending on the field, if its not drawing a larger number of elite types, I might even have a chance at an AG place, only a good cool day. But, before my head gets inflated, lets bring this back down to earth. I'll never be in the lead pack on a big race. And much of that is pre-determined based on the run. So what type of imporvements are possible here? Can I hammer out a 31:00 10 k or a 2:30 marathon? No, it will never happen, never could, and I am almost convinced that no amount of physical and mental preparation could ever make that happen. By me there is a 10k that gets some of the world class and elites to run. Very hilly course in the heat of June. Who wins? sub 30 or even sub 29? The guys from Kenya and Ethiopia. Pretty much always. Are they just stronger willed than us lazy Americans? I'll tell you, body types all look strinkingly similar. Next time I do that race i'll, ask one of them if they were ever a pudgy fat kid, or if they ever considered a pro career in wrestling or rugby Triathlon is quite a bit different, but I just dont see anyone up in the lead pack on a big race who looks like a fullback. ...and if they are up there by T2, they often get smoked on the run. I've heard of events that sound sort of like triathlons, a buddy does them, where between running or biking or kayaking you get points for how many times you can bench press your own weight. Maybe I'll do that? Nah, sounds too complicated, I'm ok with not winning

While doing the Austin Marathon, I met one of the elite runners from Kenya.  From his own mouth, this is what he told me:  Because interest in running is so high, competition to make traveling squads is intense, and Kenyan training regimes are notoriously difficult. And many young Kenyans view distance running as a ticket out of poverty. If they take top prize at the NYC Marathon, they are literally rich by their standards when they return home.  

Even Kip Keino stated that a study done in 2000 by Danish Sports Science who suggested it was their "birdlike legs" and genetics, incensed him so bad because he said the results were an affront to the Kenyan work ethic.  

So I would have to say that they have MANY factors for why they run, and some of them will discount the genetics theory as well.  

I think you are hinting at ethniticty, but I am not!!! So that elite runner with that strong Kenyan worth ethic could have just as well went 1st round in the NFL draft, run the 40 in 4.4, and bench pressed his weight 25 times...just like Trent Richardson could have won the marathon? Its all about training and work ethic?

Ummm where in that am I hinting at ethnicity?  The point I was making was that they even discount the genetics theory you were getting at.  Just because they are Kenyan doesn't mean they are genetically faster and that is what Keino was getting at.  You asked if they were stronger willed than lazy Americans, and I answered that question.  I no where in my response implied ethnicity.   

Thanks for the reference to Trent Richardson though, being my alma mater, ROLL TIDE! 

Without a doubt certain physiques give an advantage in specific sports.  If you want to play center in the NBA, it's certainly better to be 7'-2" than 5'-6".  Not impossible, but improbable.

While I think that body type and genetics help to define an individual's maximum potential, I would agree with the premise that most folks don't come anywhere close to their maximum.   

Lots of reasons for that: work, family, limited resources, age, injuries, other competing interests, etc.  There are choices to be made in life and hopefully most people will find a balance in life that suits them.  If that means they're happy only performing to 75% of they're triathlon potential, then that's OK. 

While it sounds great to say that anything is possible, you're setting yourself up for a lot of frustration or disappointment (or excuse-making) if you don't have somewhat realistic expectations.

Mark