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2012-10-19 7:53 AM

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Subject: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
An AG triathlete, who qualified for Kona and was therefore subject to out of competition testing has just recieved a one year ban:

http://lavamagazine.com/news/wtc-announces-anti-doping-rule-violati...

Shane


2012-10-19 8:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
He was tested in January, yet they announce this in October? Why so long? Just after Kona? Did he race Kona? His name isn't in the results.
2012-10-19 8:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
I read the first page of the thread on ST about this... Too many accusations that any 50+'er who's that "ripped" is T-dopiing. Wow...
2012-10-19 9:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

I live in Atlanta and have been involved in triathlon since the late-90s.  This has been long suspected of this individual since before I got into the sport, as well as this his drafting antics.

2012-10-19 9:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

That's just sad. Now being a newbie, I'll be thinking that everyone or most that get to the podium is probably cheating one way or another LOL!!! Not that I care since I'm doing this for health and fitness reasons.

2012-10-19 9:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
The article isn't clear.  Was it a violation for not obtaining a TUE for appropriately prescribed testosterone, or was it for use of illegally obtained testosterone?


2012-10-19 10:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

So Moats is only banned for ~3ish months since the ban is effective 30 Jan 2012.  That's sad.  While I applaud them for cracking down on the doping, this sentence is ridiculously short. 



Edited by mktoson 2012-10-19 10:27 AM
2012-10-19 10:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

Not enough penalty, but MUCH better than not testing.  Kudos to WTC, keep it up.

The hit to the guy's reputation is probably more significant than the penalty.

And as an Iron Joe Bonness fan: It's about freakin' time they get this guy!

2012-10-19 10:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
mktoson - 2012-10-19 10:26 AM

So Moats is only banned for ~3ish months since the ban is effective 30 Jan 2012.  That's sad.  While I applaud them for cracking down on the doping, this sentence is ridiculously short. 

Yeah but timing is good for WTC with all the Armstrong press this week.  Lots of articles mention his "foray" into triathlon.  WTC can look good saying "Look at us, we even test amateurs...."

2012-10-19 10:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

I had asked this before but it think it got buried in the ST thread.

If the athlete is not a USAT member,, just is doing a one day pass.  are they able to be OOC ??   they were only a member for that one day correct

2012-10-19 11:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
I wonder if this is the start of the wake up call that triathlon isn't any cleaner than cycling.


2012-10-19 11:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

I said it in another thread......as a 50+ triathlete, I have been asked quite a few times by other triathletes in my age group if I get Testosterone supplements. (not necessarily because I'm faster than them)  I have been told time and again how easy it is to get a prescription from a doctor because our testosterone naturally drops as we age and there are plenty of docs willing to prescribe supplements.

This AG'er simply didn't have a note from his doctor.....or we'd never hear about it.  Much ado about nothing in this particular case.

2012-10-19 11:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
Left Brain - 2012-10-19 1:40 PM

This AG'er simply didn't have a note from his doctor.....or we'd never hear about it.  Much ado about nothing in this particular case.



This is incorrect; every athlete needs to have a TUE in place for testosterone or they are in violation. While for most meds, simply having a prescription from a doctor would be sufficient to obtain a retroactive TUE, the rules are different for some drugs, such as testosterone.

Shane
2012-10-19 11:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
Gaarryy - 2012-10-19 12:59 PM

I had asked this before but it think it got buried in the ST thread.

If the athlete is not a USAT member,, just is doing a one day pass.  are they able to be OOC ??   they were only a member for that one day correct



I don't think the one day member would be subject to a USAT OOC pool. This case was not a USAT OOC pool but rather a WTC OOC pool based on qualification for Kona.

Shane
2012-10-19 12:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

gsmacleod - 2012-10-19 12:51 PM
Left Brain - 2012-10-19 1:40 PM This AG'er simply didn't have a note from his doctor.....or we'd never hear about it.  Much ado about nothing in this particular case.
This is incorrect; every athlete needs to have a TUE in place for testosterone or they are in violation. While for most meds, simply having a prescription from a doctor would be sufficient to obtain a retroactive TUE, the rules are different for some drugs, such as testosterone. Shane

I think the point that is trying to be made here is that the only thing that stands between an athlete legally taking testosterone and competing is some upfront paperwork(TUE). 

2012-10-19 12:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
mktoson - 2012-10-19 2:04 PM

This I think the point that is trying to be made here is that the only thing that stands between an athlete legally taking testosterone and competing is some upfront paperwork(TUE). 



That may be the point but it misses the big picture of testosterone supplementation. Obtaining a TUE for testosterone is quite complicated and not very likely to happen. This athlete had a prescription (part of the reason why it was a one year ban as opposed to a two year ban following the arbitration) but a prescription alone does not make it "legal" (in the sporting sense) to use testosterone.

Shane


2012-10-19 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

gsmacleod - 2012-10-19 1:13 PM
mktoson - 2012-10-19 2:04 PM This I think the point that is trying to be made here is that the only thing that stands between an athlete legally taking testosterone and competing is some upfront paperwork(TUE). 
That may be the point but it misses the big picture of testosterone supplementation. Obtaining a TUE for testosterone is quite complicated and not very likely to happen. This athlete had a prescription (part of the reason why it was a one year ban as opposed to a two year ban following the arbitration) but a prescription alone does not make it "legal" (in the sporting sense) to use testosterone. Shane

This is what I was wondering about in my first post, but after reading the thread on ST, it sounds like this guy has been accused of a number of things over the years, and this was just the one that stuck.  Kind of like the IRS nailing Al Capone for tax evasion.

 

2012-10-19 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

gsmacleod - 2012-10-19 12:13 PM
mktoson - 2012-10-19 2:04 PM This I think the point that is trying to be made here is that the only thing that stands between an athlete legally taking testosterone and competing is some upfront paperwork(TUE). 
That may be the point but it misses the big picture of testosterone supplementation. Obtaining a TUE for testosterone is quite complicated and not very likely to happen. This athlete had a prescription (part of the reason why it was a one year ban as opposed to a two year ban following the arbitration) but a prescription alone does not make it "legal" (in the sporting sense) to use testosterone. Shane

Ok, Shane, then what does?  It's been my understanding that a TUE is relatively easy to get....especially for older AG'ers.

2012-10-19 12:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
If I ever manage to make it to the podium, I'll just feel that much better about it.  And if not, I can look at what I've achieved in terms of fitness and always feel good about participating in this sport.  Other people doping doesn't bug me so much.  That said, if I were to finish fourth and at some later date one of the people in front of me got busted, I'd be disappointed.  Long ways to go to 4th place, though.
2012-10-19 12:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
Left Brain - 2012-10-19 2:19 PM

Ok, Shane, then what does?  It's been my understanding that a TUE is relatively easy to get....especially for older AG'ers.



For testosterone, an athlete would have to be prescribed by a doctor, apply for a TUE, provide all supporting documentation and then wait to see if the TUE is issued. In most cases, a TUE is not going to be issued for T supplementation so then the athlete is faced with the choice of not using T or competing in violation of the rules.

Other TUEs are much easier to obtain and they can be secured retroactively. So, most AGers would go to their doctor, get a prescription, take the drugs, never have a drug test and be fine. However, in the event that they get selected for a test (in or out of competition), then they take the test, apply for the TUE and they are still in the clear.

ETA - this is worth a read - http://www.slowtwitch.com/Features/Drugs_and_testing_for_AGers_Intr...

Shane

Edited by gsmacleod 2012-10-19 1:04 PM
2012-10-19 1:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
so how are AGers selected for out of competition testing, if they do not qualify for something like kona?  or is this something that is not done?


2012-10-19 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time

gsmacleod - 2012-10-19 12:59 PM
Left Brain - 2012-10-19 2:19 PM Ok, Shane, then what does?  It's been my understanding that a TUE is relatively easy to get....especially for older AG'ers.
For testosterone, an athlete would have to be prescribed by a doctor, apply for a TUE, provide all supporting documentation and then wait to see if the TUE is issued. In most cases, a TUE is not going to be issued for T supplementation so then the athlete is faced with the choice of not using T or competing in violation of the rules. Other TUEs are much easier to obtain and they can be secured retroactively. So, most AGers would go to their doctor, get a prescription, take the drugs, never have a drug test and be fine. However, in the event that they get selected for a test (in or out of competition), then they take the test, apply for the TUE and they are still in the clear. ETA - this is worth a read - http://www.slowtwitch.com/Features/Drugs_and_testing_for_AGers_Intr... Shane

Yeah, I actually went to the USADA site to see about TUE's for testosterone.  I've been seeing the same doc for 20 years and we socialize a bit as well.  I'm going to print out the info and the forms and take them to him to get his take on it.  No, I don't take T supps...and I won't just to do triathlon, but we have had a discussion or two regarding lower T as I age and continue to exercise. 

I bet there is a point for most men, somewhere in the aging process, where a TUE for testosterone wouldn't be hard for a doctor to get behind.

 

2012-10-19 2:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
Left Brain - 2012-10-19 3:52 PM

Yeah, I actually went to the USADA site to see about TUE's for testosterone.  I've been seeing the same doc for 20 years and we socialize a bit as well.  I'm going to print out the info and the forms and take them to him to get his take on it.  No, I don't take T supps...and I won't just to do triathlon, but we have had a discussion or two regarding lower T as I age and continue to exercise. 

I bet there is a point for most men, somewhere in the aging process, where a TUE for testosterone wouldn't be hard for a doctor to get behind.

 



While I have little doubt, especially with all the ads for anti-aging centres that I hear, that it would be very easy to find a doctor who would sign off on T supplementation.

However, just because a doctor or doctors have signed off on it doesn't mean that USADA is going to provide a TUE. The athlete will need to provide lots of historical evidence, not just that they have low T but that they have abnormally low T. Since T levels fall over a very wide range, it is my understanding that even as T levels drop with age that almost every athlete will still be in the normal range.

Shane
2012-10-19 2:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
gsmacleod - 2012-10-19 11:53 AM
Gaarryy - 2012-10-19 12:59 PM

I had asked this before but it think it got buried in the ST thread.

If the athlete is not a USAT member,, just is doing a one day pass.  are they able to be OOC ??   they were only a member for that one day correct

I don't think the one day member would be subject to a USAT OOC pool. This case was not a USAT OOC pool but rather a WTC OOC pool based on qualification for Kona. Shane

That's what I figured.  the WTC Kona OOC...   I'm was more curious just about the one day licence though.

I see others have writen about obtaining a TUE for low T.  While it might be easy to get the prescription. Getting a TUE for it is a bit tougher.  For some reason I believe you have to have additional testing and pay out of pocket for it.  It's not a matter of them seeing the script and rubber stamping it.

Discloser I'm on Testerone, and don't have a TUE for it. mostly since I"m only running these days and not tri's.  When I looked into getting the TUE, it seemed more complicated than I thought it would be.  usually levels would be for men in my age rage 400-500 ish with down to 200 being considered within range.  Mine was 85.  So even my doc thought it was strange that with all the testing she did, that I would have to undergo more



Edited by Gaarryy 2012-10-19 2:23 PM
2012-10-19 2:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Age Grouper Doping Case - Tri This Time
gsmacleod - 2012-10-19 2:17 PM
Left Brain - 2012-10-19 3:52 PM Yeah, I actually went to the USADA site to see about TUE's for testosterone.  I've been seeing the same doc for 20 years and we socialize a bit as well.  I'm going to print out the info and the forms and take them to him to get his take on it.  No, I don't take T supps...and I won't just to do triathlon, but we have had a discussion or two regarding lower T as I age and continue to exercise. 

I bet there is a point for most men, somewhere in the aging process, where a TUE for testosterone wouldn't be hard for a doctor to get behind.

 

While I have little doubt, especially with all the ads for anti-aging centres that I hear, that it would be very easy to find a doctor who would sign off on T supplementation. However, just because a doctor or doctors have signed off on it doesn't mean that USADA is going to provide a TUE. The athlete will need to provide lots of historical evidence, not just that they have low T but that they have abnormally low T. Since T levels fall over a very wide range, it is my understanding that even as T levels drop with age that almost every athlete will still be in the normal range. Shane

Yeah, I don't know.....I'm interested to hear what he says about it.

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