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2012-11-14 3:19 PM

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Subject: Yet another WWCOJD ...

I am struggling with how to be a supportive friend yet not compromise my own ethics ... feedback please! Here's the (long) story:

I made a couple of close friends at my last job. One of those friends is a single lady (late 30s, been raising a son on her own since she was 19, he's off to college now), and one friend is a married man in his late 50s. I suspected they were sleeping together (lots of opportunities since they travel together quite often) a couple of years ago, but it's none of my business, so I didn't say anything. Eventually, they both confided in me that they were indeed having an affair, supposedly in love, his marriage was failing, etc.

I think adultery is awful. I don't condone it in any way. I think it is a cowardly, terrible act. However, I try really, really hard to practice non-judgment, and they said they were working toward being together in an honest open way once a few things got taken care of (ie: her son gets successfully adjusted at college, he breaks it off with the wife, etc), so I stayed mum about my own opinions and tried to be a supportive friend to her. (He and I don't have much contact since I left that job, and I am perfectly fine with that.)

But, it's become increasingly hard to be her friend. He still hasn't left his wife after multiple deadlines being set. She goes through these periods of saying she can't take it anymore, something has to change, she's cutting him off ... but then the next week she'll play hooky from work for two days so she can meet him for a quick overnight in Las Vegas, which he pays for using airline miles. It's always something ... for him AND her. His daughter is in crisis, so she can't dump him now ... She's stressed about her son, so she can't dump him now ... and so on, and so on, for years at this point.

My opinion is that he will most likely never leave his wife (this is his third marriage and he is concerned with looking like a failure if this marriage breaks up ... too late, I say!). He's trying to push the wife away in hopes she'll make the break so he won't have to. When my friend sets another ultimatum, he acts depressed and won't eat, so she feels guilty. He is using her, emotionally abusing her and pretty much acting like one of the lowest forms of humans I know. And she takes it. She's not happy, but she's too scared to let him go. She got pregnant young and after having her son, she pretty much stayed dateless and celibate until this guy.

So, how do I even talk to her? I see her four times a week (she's my workout buddy) and we share everything! I stopped asking about the latest status of their relationship, and I try not to respond if she brings it up. Do I go the "tough love" route and tell her he's a total douche and she deserves better and she needs to walk away ASAP? And that I can't possibly be friends with someone who is willingly taking part in this and putting up with this crap? That it is infuriating to see someone treat my good friend like this? That she's settling for the first person who showed her attention and she deserves better? That I can't listen to this crap anymore and continuing our friendship is compromising my own morals?

I am attempting to temper my own opinion of the issue with being a supportive friend and being non-judgmental. HELP!! She's starting to notice me pulling away so I think I am going to have to say something soon.



2012-11-14 3:43 PM
in reply to: #4498406

Master
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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

I think everyone will have their own opinion on this.

For me, the biggest problem is the dishonesty.  The whole relationship is made possible by that guy's dishonesty with his wife.  If he's willing to show so little respect for someone, whether he loves her or not, how can your friend ever trust him?

I seriously doubt he has any plans to leave his wife; guys like that just want to maintain the status quo.

If your friend doesn't break it off and cut off ALL contact, she's in for a world of hurt.  I'd try to talk to her about this guy's dishonesty and convince her that there are plenty of AVAILABLE guys out there if she's willing to believe in herself.

2012-11-14 4:00 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Master
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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
It sounds like she's got some serious self-esteem issues if she's sleeping with a married guy who doesn't even treat her that well.  I'd recommend you tell her to go see a counselor, because she's going to be in a world of hurt down the road.
2012-11-14 4:07 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
Be honest and non-confrontational, but let THEM bring it up.
2012-11-14 4:08 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
Why do you feel the need to be non-judgemental? Seriously. You think it's a cowadly and terrible act, and, for the record, I agee with you.

It's not necessary to always be supportive of people who make poor choices and to then listen sympathetically while they bemoan their lot. She made her bed, now she's lying in it. If you tell her "he's a total douche" you're letting her off the hook for her equal role in this mess. She chose to pursue an affair with a married man, however unhappy he may be in that marriage. She is as complicit as he is and no less reprehensible.

His wife is the real victim in this scenario, not your friend. If you have sympathy for anyone, have it for her.

Easy for me to say, I know, but you asked...
2012-11-14 4:15 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

My usual course of action:

"I love you. I support you in anything you do. This situation you're in isn't sitting well with me. I need to bring it up with you to clear the air. I know it might be tough to hear, but I need you to know how I feel..." then talk about it. Be sure at the end to remind her that you do love her, and you will support her, but you need to have a voice.

Sometimes, the person is still my friend. Sometimes, they are not.



2012-11-14 4:31 PM
in reply to: #4498454

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

jmk-brooklyn - 2012-11-14 2:08 PM Why do you feel the need to be non-judgemental? Seriously. You think it's a cowadly and terrible act, and, for the record, I agee with you. It's not necessary to always be supportive of people who make poor choices and to then listen sympathetically while they bemoan their lot. She made her bed, now she's lying in it. If you tell her "he's a total douche" you're letting her off the hook for her equal role in this mess. She chose to pursue an affair with a married man, however unhappy he may be in that marriage. She is as complicit as he is and no less reprehensible. His wife is the real victim in this scenario, not your friend. If you have sympathy for anyone, have it for her. Easy for me to say, I know, but you asked...

^^^^Yes.

If one brings up an issue/situation with a "good friend", one should be willing to hear that friend's true feelings. If not, what's the point?

2012-11-14 4:32 PM
in reply to: #4498465

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
ratherbeswimming - 2012-11-14 2:15 PM

My usual course of action:

"I love you. I support you in anything you do. This situation you're in isn't sitting well with me. I need to bring it up with you to clear the air. I know it might be tough to hear, but I need you to know how I feel..." then talk about it. Be sure at the end to remind her that you do love her, and you will support her, but you need to have a voice.

Sometimes, the person is still my friend. Sometimes, they are not.

I basically agree with this though I usually take a tougher approach. I have told people in similar situations - if you are not being open and honest with people about something like this, how do I know you are not hiding something big from me? If I think you are hiding something I cannot trust you and how good can a relationship be without trust?

I know that is probably harsh and has cost me a friend in the past, but I am a fan of open and honest communication as much as possible. If I am not legally or morally (according to my morals, not yours or someone elses) obligated to keep a secret, then it is not a secret.

2012-11-14 4:34 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
I would just tell her that you think it is wrong and you would prefer to not hear about it or talk about the affair at all. You can still be her friend, but this way it is clear that you do not support what she/he is doing.
2012-11-14 4:35 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

I can guess that she's built up this fantasy in her head and thinking if she doesn't make this work, then no one will ever want to be with her.

You know your friend the best.  I'm not sure how I'd get the message to sink in, but I agree with the others: don't dance around the issue.  Tell her what she needs to hear.  She may get mad at first but I bet she'll thank you later.

2012-11-14 4:40 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

If it was my daughter, I'd hope she had a true friend that could knock some sense into her head.

I vote tough love or there was no love there to begin with.



2012-11-14 4:40 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

If she is your friend be honest with her about your thoughts about the chance he will leave his wife.

If she is a co-worker and really a "friend" I would try to minimize my contact with her and change the subject when she brings it up. Possibly tell her you feel uncomfortable about discussing that subject with her,,,,,, which sounds like it would be honest.

 

Good luck

2012-11-14 4:52 PM
in reply to: #4498499

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

jford2309 - 2012-11-14 2:34 PM I would just tell her that you think it is wrong and you would prefer to not hear about it or talk about the affair at all. You can still be her friend, but this way it is clear that you do not support what she/he is doing.

I vote this...

If someone keeps coming back to me with the same questions/problems and disregards advice or consolation from me or others, I eventually say that I just don't want to hear about anymore and they can deal with it themsleves.  I stick to my guns as well and will walk out if the topic comes up.

The OP really has ZERO obligation to get involved in this in the long run.  We all try to help, but there eventually is a time you need to bail/punt.



Edited by Kido 2012-11-14 4:53 PM
2012-11-14 4:58 PM
in reply to: #4498454

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

jmk-brooklyn - 2012-11-14 3:08 PM Why do you feel the need to be non-judgemental? Seriously. You think it's a cowadly and terrible act, and, for the record, I agee with you. It's not necessary to always be supportive of people who make poor choices and to then listen sympathetically while they bemoan their lot. She made her bed, now she's lying in it. If you tell her "he's a total douche" you're letting her off the hook for her equal role in this mess. She chose to pursue an affair with a married man, however unhappy he may be in that marriage. She is as complicit as he is and no less reprehensible. His wife is the real victim in this scenario, not your friend. If you have sympathy for anyone, have it for her. Easy for me to say, I know, but you asked...

^^^Agreed.

Sounds like a total loser (guy) and an irrational homewrecker (girl). Neither are better than the other in my eyes. 

But I also don't think you are going to change anything by telling her what you think. Perhaps just tell her that you do not approve and would prefer not to hear about it. I find that some people just like drama, it keeps the boredom at bay. They have something going on and they have something to talk about as long as the drama goes on. 

I have a friend who does everything possible to wreck his life and the lives of those around him. He calls me every 6 months or so and wants to hang out. Last two times he unloaded 6 months worth of drama, I didn't sympathize and moved the convo off the drama, he didn't call again. The last time I told him I didn't want to hear it but we could hang out if he wanted to. He was all of a sudden rather busy. 

2012-11-14 5:32 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

I am pretty sure everyone's in agreement that the older dude and your friend made (and are currently making) pretty bad choices.  It's also a safe bet they'll continue to do so regardless of what you say or do.

I found this line interesting:  "continuing our friendship is compromising my own morals."  Unless you were literally driving her to this married guy's house, I am having trouble figuring out why your morals are being compromised.

My recommendation would be to use the same expression you're using in your screen pic here at BT...except with the thumbs down, the next time your friend brings up the two-timing jerk.  Yeah, she may decide she doesn't want to work out with you anymore, but is it really that big a loss?  If someone doesn't want to hang with you when you tell them your honest feelings, they're not worth hangin' with.  Just my 2 cents!

good luck.

2012-11-15 9:19 PM
in reply to: #4498570

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
ChineseDemocracy - 2012-11-14 4:32 PM

I found this line interesting:  "continuing our friendship is compromising my own morals."  Unless you were literally driving her to this married guy's house, I am having trouble figuring out why your morals are being compromised.



I agree.

But, to the OP, I get what you are saying, my biggest problem with adultery is how can I ever trust someone who is willing to break that type of promise and hide it. From what I can tell though, adultery is not indicitive of other moral failings, strange as that may seem.

If she is your friend, you put up with her faults, I am sure she puts up with hers. For sure tell her that she is messing up her life and making a stupid decision. Just sit her down and say, "girlfriend, I got to get this bit off my chest because I just do so hear me out."

Of course probably be silly to take girl girl relationship advice from a boy.


2012-11-15 9:58 PM
in reply to: #4498494

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
bel83 - 2012-11-14 4:32 PM

ratherbeswimming - 2012-11-14 2:15 PM

My usual course of action:

"I love you. I support you in anything you do. This situation you're in isn't sitting well with me. I need to bring it up with you to clear the air. I know it might be tough to hear, but I need you to know how I feel..." then talk about it. Be sure at the end to remind her that you do love her, and you will support her, but you need to have a voice.

Sometimes, the person is still my friend. Sometimes, they are not.

I basically agree with this though I usually take a tougher approach. I have told people in similar situations - if you are not being open and honest with people about something like this, how do I know you are not hiding something big from me? If I think you are hiding something I cannot trust you and how good can a relationship be without trust?

I know that is probably harsh and has cost me a friend in the past, but I am a fan of open and honest communication as much as possible. If I am not legally or morally (according to my morals, not yours or someone elses) obligated to keep a secret, then it is not a secret.



Yep... all of this. And after that's all said and done... tell her you don't want to hear about that part of her life anymore, if she's not willing to do something to improve it. Otherwise, you are all ears.

2012-11-15 10:24 PM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

Wow, so much good feedback everyone, thank you.

A couple clarifications ... they are not my co-workers anymore, but they still work together, so as much as cutting off all contact would normally be reasonable, it's not possible for her right now. I think that's yet another reason she's been apprehensive about getting rid of him.

Someone asked about my statement of "continuing the friendship would be compromising my morals." I guess I mean that since it's been so long, it now feels that continuing to keep the secret, and continuing to listen to her talk about him/them, etc and NOT saying how I really feel ... that feels like I am supportive of her choices. It's time she knows I'm not.

I do know that I need to say something to her. And writing it out here and reading the responses has helped me to let go of some of the anger and frustration I was feeling and focus on the approach I think I want to take, which is the "I love you, and because I love you, I cannot stand by and let this continue without me telling you how I feel about it."

That conversation will more than likely happen tomorrow night. She's coming over for dinner and even though I want to be a wuss and tell her on the phone (or text or email or anything but in person!), I know that's not the right way to handle it. Wish me luck!



Edited by smarti 2012-11-15 10:26 PM
2012-11-15 10:36 PM
in reply to: #4500059

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
smarti - 2012-11-15 8:24 PM

Wow, so much good feedback everyone, thank you.

A couple clarifications ... they are not my co-workers anymore, but they still work together, so as much as cutting off all contact would normally be reasonable, it's not possible for her right now. I think that's yet another reason she's been apprehensive about getting rid of him.

Someone asked about my statement of "continuing the friendship would be compromising my morals." I guess I mean that since it's been so long, it now feels that continuing to keep the secret, and continuing to listen to her talk about him/them, etc and NOT saying how I really feel ... that feels like I am supportive of her choices. It's time she knows I'm not.

I do know that I need to say something to her. And writing it out here and reading the responses has helped me to let go of some of the anger and frustration I was feeling and focus on the approach I think I want to take, which is the "I love you, and because I love you, I cannot stand by and let this continue without me telling you how I feel about it."

That conversation will more than likely happen tomorrow night. She's coming over for dinner and even though I want to be a wuss and tell her on the phone (or text or email or anything but in person!), I know that's not the right way to handle it. Wish me luck!

Luck!

I know your friend will appreciate your honesty (face-to-face, no less)...even if it doesn't seem like it in the moments of talking to her tomorrow night.

2012-11-16 7:02 AM
in reply to: #4498406

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

Please make sure to update us.  Now we're curious.

2012-11-16 8:29 AM
in reply to: #4500225

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
velocomp - 2012-11-16 8:02 AM

Please make sure to update us.  Now we're curious.

x2



2012-11-16 11:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

Well, we had "the talk." And I think it went well. I was able to be very calm and stay focused on my main issue: that she deserves SO MUCH BETTER!! I did not mince words when it came to my feelings on adultery. I said I felt she was making some very bad choices, and I told her what I thought of him and the likelihood that he will ever change. I encouraged her to explore counseling or speak with her church pastor to look at some of the reasons this situation seemed/seems appealing. I told her I loved her and wanted to be her friend but that I couldn't stand by and listen to the same saga over and over again. I said as soon as I saw her happy and being treated well, we can revisit talking about this relationship. I told her I didn't want her to think she couldn't be open and honest with me but that I also was going to be open and honest with her, even if it wasn't what she wanted to hear.

She didn't get mad. She cried. She said I wasn't telling her anything she didn't already know. She did make some halfhearted attempts to defend him ("he and his wife are spending Thanksgiving apart, so that's another step!") but I tried to bring it back to HER. She thanked me for being honest and said she loves me.

And then we watched "Magic Mike." Smile

Thanks again to all who gave feedback. It gave me the encouragement to speak up, and even if she chooses to stay right where she is, I am going to sleep tonight feeling good that I spoke my truth and knowing that I have the freedom to continue to do so.

2012-11-17 9:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...

I got a lovely text message from the older guy in this situation this morning:

"Wow what a sad day. Someone I cared about and trusted stabs me in the back. I hope you know what you have done. You and I are no more."

Clearly, I care more about his "girlfriend" than he does. I will not be responding. And even though I think he is scum and I stand by my opinion of him, it sucks to have someone actively hate you.

So even though she left last night seemingly okay and our friendship still intact, I wonder how she'll feel after what's sure to be another brainwashing attempt by him to change her mind ... whatever. I'm going to yoga class now.

2012-11-17 5:06 PM
in reply to: #4501736

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
smarti - 2012-11-17 10:08 AM

I got a lovely text message from the older guy in this situation this morning:

"Wow what a sad day. Someone I cared about and trusted stabs me in the back. I hope you know what you have done. You and I are no more."

Clearly, I care more about his "girlfriend" than he does. I will not be responding. And even though I think he is scum and I stand by my opinion of him, it sucks to have someone actively hate you.

So even though she left last night seemingly okay and our friendship still intact, I wonder how she'll feel after what's sure to be another brainwashing attempt by him to change her mind ... whatever. I'm going to yoga class now.

Don't worry about a scumbag hating you...take it as a compliment!  

You did the right thing, feel good about it!  

btw, you recommended your friend should talk to her pastor?  That can't be, I learned in another thread Church-going folks aren't adulterers!  

In all seriousness, hopefully this chick (and all chicks reading this) have learned something important.  Don't get involved with married men!

 

2012-11-18 7:18 PM
in reply to: #4501736

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Subject: RE: Yet another WWCOJD ...
smarti - 2012-11-17 9:08 AM

I got a lovely text message from the older guy in this situation this morning:

"Wow what a sad day. Someone I cared about and trusted stabs me in the back. I hope you know what you have done. You and I are no more."

Clearly, I care more about his "girlfriend" than he does. I will not be responding. And even though I think he is scum and I stand by my opinion of him, it sucks to have someone actively hate you.

So even though she left last night seemingly okay and our friendship still intact, I wonder how she'll feel after what's sure to be another brainwashing attempt by him to change her mind ... whatever. I'm going to yoga class now.



You did the right thing!

He is completely off his rocker. I guess he's pretty secure with the thought that you won't tell his wife. Some women would be crazy enough to do it after a rude text message like that.

Some people just don't see who they really are and what they are doing.

Thanks for updating us and it sounds like the conversation with your friend went good.


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