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 2013-11-06 10:37 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro  4313   McKinney, TX |  Subject: RE: IncognitoOriginally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Scott71 Originally posted by Left Brain I would not be shocked at a certain level of rookie hazing that goes beyond what would be acceptable in the "workplace". But when Jon Gruden and other NFL players and coaches are saying that they have never seen anything like what Incognito is accused of having done, then I think this goes beyond typical rookie hazing and is important for the NFL to address. Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by Left Brain The Dolphins are a registered business subject to the labor laws of the state of Florida and the United States of America. I'm pretty sure that threatenng a co-worker's life or overt racism are covered by these laws. If you have ever taken training in harassment, the concept if "logical extension of the workplace" covers phone calls and texts between co-workers. Legality and civility needs to be in place in every workplace. Would you be OK with the casting couch because that's how actresses get roles? Not at all. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by Left Brain Hazing - Making someone stand up and eat in the player cafeteria, singing their alma mater fight song, carrying pads, buying meals, shaving one of their eye brows Harassment - Using racial slurs, threats of violence (when one has witnessed or already been victimized), death threats (context is taken by the receiver). So....you don't expect someone, no matter what industry they work in, to not be harassed? Having spent 7 years in NFL locker rooms, for 2 different NFL teams....I'm here to tell you that fights do happen, hazing does happen, but at the end of the day.....they're all brothers, they all have experienced it, and it bonds them. However, I can tell you that team leaders are usually the ones that are in on it and control what goes on. I've never seen a practical joke go beyond just what they are and I've never seen a fight where it wasn't broken up quickly. Again...either the Dolphins knew that this was going on and did nothing .....or Incognito is "that frat guy" that takes hazing to a whole new level and gets the chapter charter revoked and kicked off campus. Pitt, don't take it personal......I'm laughing at the viewpoint in general...because to me it's laughable. Look, if you want to be protected in the "workplace"....then go get a damn job and join the "workforce". If you want to make millions playing a brutal game then man up....geez. This dog piling of Incognito in the name of "workplace safety" is, I'm sorry, actually beyond laughable. I get all that......I've spent nearly a lilfetime in locker rooms myself between all boys high school, Marine Corps, and my job....pranks are the best part of it for sure, along with the bonding between folks who have to fight together...on whatever level. BUT.... the NFL is not a "workplace" as defined by most of us.....what is tolerated by the members of a team is largely a product of their own making, wouldn't you agree? The problem with this deal is that the craziest guy became a leader......with no rope around him and nobody to stand up and put an end to it. That's not just a Richy problem. I'll say it again......my issue is calling this a workplace deal when other behavior that would also be CLEARLY out of bounds in "the workplace" is fine. Employers yelling at workers and fighting is also considered harrassment.......how should that be handled in the NFL "workplace"? And if you've ever taken a course in law enforcement, threatening to kill someone by phone or otherwise harrassing them in their home is criminal. This is a TEAM issue.....it's not news and it's not a "workplace" issue to me. I promise the rank and file players don't want it to be. Treating what happens between players and coaches the same as any other workplace is ridiculous. Yeah, that's because Gruden et al want to have their cake and eat it too. If you are going to hold it up to "workplace" standards then you don't get to change the rules and say some out of bounds activity is OK but other activity is not. Either we are all working under the same rules or we aren't. As Tony said....there is NO WAY "normal" behavior in the NFL "workplace" is tolerated at any other "workplace". DP....but got me on top. Edited by bradleyd3 2013-11-06 10:37 AM |
| 2013-11-06 10:37 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Master 1585   Folsom (Sacramento), CA | Subject: RE: Incognito If it is unreasonable for this situation to be considered workplace harassment, would that also mean that workplace sexual harassment laws shouldn't apply to strip clubs? |
| 2013-11-06 10:40 AM in reply to: pitt83 |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. |
| 2013-11-06 10:44 AM in reply to: uclamatt2007 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by uclamatt2007 If it is unreasonable for this situation to be considered workplace harassment, would that also mean that workplace sexual harassment laws shouldn't apply to strip clubs? Apples and oranges,......because workplace harrassment DOES happen on NFL teams all the time and nothing is done about it. Are you telling me that the girls in strip clubs are subjected to sexual harrassment by other employees all the time? |
| 2013-11-06 10:46 AM in reply to: mr2tony |
Pro 4313 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... |
| 2013-11-06 10:47 AM in reply to: bradleyd3 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by Left Brain But you can't use the word "workplace" as a litmus test for all workplaces. A "workplace" is a "place of work". There are different standards, different rules, different policies from where I work, to where you work, to where Tony works.....but at the end of the day, it's a "workplace". If you're in your place of work and experience "out of the norm" harassment/hazing, that becomes a workplace issue. A (farfetched) example: You and another responding officer, get into a foot pursuit with a suspect. Fellow officer catches up and arrests suspect. After the suspect is loaded in, you give him the "butt slap" and say "great f'ing job for a slow white guy". Everyone laughs and does their paperwork. Me and my IT guy work together on a project. He works for hours on a spreadsheet and when he's done, I give him the "butt slap" and say "not bad for a introverted code monkey" Same thing, right? But in your "workplace" what you did would be acceptable. Mine....not so much. You can label every place of work as a workplace, but realize there different as well Originally posted by Scott71 Originally posted by Left Brain I would not be shocked at a certain level of rookie hazing that goes beyond what would be acceptable in the "workplace". But when Jon Gruden and other NFL players and coaches are saying that they have never seen anything like what Incognito is accused of having done, then I think this goes beyond typical rookie hazing and is important for the NFL to address. Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by Left Brain The Dolphins are a registered business subject to the labor laws of the state of Florida and the United States of America. I'm pretty sure that threatenng a co-worker's life or overt racism are covered by these laws. If you have ever taken training in harassment, the concept if "logical extension of the workplace" covers phone calls and texts between co-workers. Legality and civility needs to be in place in every workplace. Would you be OK with the casting couch because that's how actresses get roles? Not at all. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by Left Brain Hazing - Making someone stand up and eat in the player cafeteria, singing their alma mater fight song, carrying pads, buying meals, shaving one of their eye brows Harassment - Using racial slurs, threats of violence (when one has witnessed or already been victimized), death threats (context is taken by the receiver). So....you don't expect someone, no matter what industry they work in, to not be harassed? Having spent 7 years in NFL locker rooms, for 2 different NFL teams....I'm here to tell you that fights do happen, hazing does happen, but at the end of the day.....they're all brothers, they all have experienced it, and it bonds them. However, I can tell you that team leaders are usually the ones that are in on it and control what goes on. I've never seen a practical joke go beyond just what they are and I've never seen a fight where it wasn't broken up quickly. Again...either the Dolphins knew that this was going on and did nothing .....or Incognito is "that frat guy" that takes hazing to a whole new level and gets the chapter charter revoked and kicked off campus. Pitt, don't take it personal......I'm laughing at the viewpoint in general...because to me it's laughable. Look, if you want to be protected in the "workplace"....then go get a damn job and join the "workforce". If you want to make millions playing a brutal game then man up....geez. This dog piling of Incognito in the name of "workplace safety" is, I'm sorry, actually beyond laughable. I get all that......I've spent nearly a lilfetime in locker rooms myself between all boys high school, Marine Corps, and my job....pranks are the best part of it for sure, along with the bonding between folks who have to fight together...on whatever level. BUT.... the NFL is not a "workplace" as defined by most of us.....what is tolerated by the members of a team is largely a product of their own making, wouldn't you agree? The problem with this deal is that the craziest guy became a leader......with no rope around him and nobody to stand up and put an end to it. That's not just a Richy problem. I'll say it again......my issue is calling this a workplace deal when other behavior that would also be CLEARLY out of bounds in "the workplace" is fine. Employers yelling at workers and fighting is also considered harrassment.......how should that be handled in the NFL "workplace"? And if you've ever taken a course in law enforcement, threatening to kill someone by phone or otherwise harrassing them in their home is criminal. This is a TEAM issue.....it's not news and it's not a "workplace" issue to me. I promise the rank and file players don't want it to be. Treating what happens between players and coaches the same as any other workplace is ridiculous. Yeah, that's because Gruden et al want to have their cake and eat it too. If you are going to hold it up to "workplace" standards then you don't get to change the rules and say some out of bounds activity is OK but other activity is not. Either we are all working under the same rules or we aren't. As Tony said....there is NO WAY "normal" behavior in the NFL "workplace" is tolerated at any other "workplace". No...because if the guy I butt slap complains it's a problem......on a sexual and race level if he wants it to be. And since that is the case.....we don't do that at all. Is that what you want for the NFL? |
| 2013-11-06 10:54 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 5761 Bartlett, TN | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by Left Brain But you can't use the word "workplace" as a litmus test for all workplaces. A "workplace" is a "place of work". There are different standards, different rules, different policies from where I work, to where you work, to where Tony works.....but at the end of the day, it's a "workplace". If you're in your place of work and experience "out of the norm" harassment/hazing, that becomes a workplace issue. A (farfetched) example: You and another responding officer, get into a foot pursuit with a suspect. Fellow officer catches up and arrests suspect. After the suspect is loaded in, you give him the "butt slap" and say "great f'ing job for a slow white guy". Everyone laughs and does their paperwork. Me and my IT guy work together on a project. He works for hours on a spreadsheet and when he's done, I give him the "butt slap" and say "not bad for a introverted code monkey" Same thing, right? But in your "workplace" what you did would be acceptable. Mine....not so much. You can label every place of work as a workplace, but realize there different as well Originally posted by Scott71 Originally posted by Left Brain I would not be shocked at a certain level of rookie hazing that goes beyond what would be acceptable in the "workplace". But when Jon Gruden and other NFL players and coaches are saying that they have never seen anything like what Incognito is accused of having done, then I think this goes beyond typical rookie hazing and is important for the NFL to address. Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by Left Brain The Dolphins are a registered business subject to the labor laws of the state of Florida and the United States of America. I'm pretty sure that threatenng a co-worker's life or overt racism are covered by these laws. If you have ever taken training in harassment, the concept if "logical extension of the workplace" covers phone calls and texts between co-workers. Legality and civility needs to be in place in every workplace. Would you be OK with the casting couch because that's how actresses get roles? Not at all. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by Left Brain Hazing - Making someone stand up and eat in the player cafeteria, singing their alma mater fight song, carrying pads, buying meals, shaving one of their eye brows Harassment - Using racial slurs, threats of violence (when one has witnessed or already been victimized), death threats (context is taken by the receiver). So....you don't expect someone, no matter what industry they work in, to not be harassed? Having spent 7 years in NFL locker rooms, for 2 different NFL teams....I'm here to tell you that fights do happen, hazing does happen, but at the end of the day.....they're all brothers, they all have experienced it, and it bonds them. However, I can tell you that team leaders are usually the ones that are in on it and control what goes on. I've never seen a practical joke go beyond just what they are and I've never seen a fight where it wasn't broken up quickly. Again...either the Dolphins knew that this was going on and did nothing .....or Incognito is "that frat guy" that takes hazing to a whole new level and gets the chapter charter revoked and kicked off campus. Pitt, don't take it personal......I'm laughing at the viewpoint in general...because to me it's laughable. Look, if you want to be protected in the "workplace"....then go get a damn job and join the "workforce". If you want to make millions playing a brutal game then man up....geez. This dog piling of Incognito in the name of "workplace safety" is, I'm sorry, actually beyond laughable. I get all that......I've spent nearly a lilfetime in locker rooms myself between all boys high school, Marine Corps, and my job....pranks are the best part of it for sure, along with the bonding between folks who have to fight together...on whatever level. BUT.... the NFL is not a "workplace" as defined by most of us.....what is tolerated by the members of a team is largely a product of their own making, wouldn't you agree? The problem with this deal is that the craziest guy became a leader......with no rope around him and nobody to stand up and put an end to it. That's not just a Richy problem. I'll say it again......my issue is calling this a workplace deal when other behavior that would also be CLEARLY out of bounds in "the workplace" is fine. Employers yelling at workers and fighting is also considered harrassment.......how should that be handled in the NFL "workplace"? And if you've ever taken a course in law enforcement, threatening to kill someone by phone or otherwise harrassing them in their home is criminal. This is a TEAM issue.....it's not news and it's not a "workplace" issue to me. I promise the rank and file players don't want it to be. Treating what happens between players and coaches the same as any other workplace is ridiculous. Yeah, that's because Gruden et al want to have their cake and eat it too. If you are going to hold it up to "workplace" standards then you don't get to change the rules and say some out of bounds activity is OK but other activity is not. Either we are all working under the same rules or we aren't. As Tony said....there is NO WAY "normal" behavior in the NFL "workplace" is tolerated at any other "workplace". No...because if the guy I butt slap complains it's a problem......on a sexual and race level if he wants it to be. And since that is the case.....we don't do that at all. Is that what you want for the NFL?
I get Brad's point. Everyday at my work, they start the morning with a morning huddle and it is nothing similiar to the Ray Lewis pre game huddle we see on TV. That would never fly in "my" workplace, so I understand what he is saying about different expectations at different workplaces. But the main point is being overlooked by many on here I think. No one (to my knowledge) is complaining about Martin being yelled at on the field or at practice, it comes down to harassing/threatening voicemail and text messages being sent from one player to anotheroustide of his "workplace". Now did other players know about the voicemail and texts? I don't know, and I am not sure they ever would unless Martin said something, so there is still a lot of things we do not know about this so called instruction to "toughen the guy up". But either way, once he left the facility and he is receiving threats, insults and harassment, it negates the whole "NFL is a different type of workplace" defense IMO. |
| 2013-11-06 10:56 AM in reply to: bradleyd3 |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. |
| 2013-11-06 11:33 AM in reply to: mr2tony |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. |
| 2013-11-06 11:38 AM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. That's what I said. Don't mistake my assertion that there are different standards in the NFL than there are in normal jobs for saying that I agree with Incognito -- I absolutely 100% agree that he should be fired because he crossed the line and took it too far. Which is what I've been saying all along. I should know after all the political threads that people only read what they want to read and nothing more. |
| 2013-11-06 11:38 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 358 | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by Left Brain Kyle Turley described for Time an incident in 1998 in which he and other rookies ran down a hallway with pillowcases over their heads and were kicked and punched by teammates............he somehow survived and nobody wanted to kill themselves. Funny deal....apparently Martin didn't bring the issue forward.....his agent did.....yeah, no ulterior motive there.
That incident led to injuries to Cam Cleeland (eye) and Jeff Danish (cut requiring stitches and eventually his release from the team). |
| 2013-11-06 11:48 AM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
Champion 16151 Checkin' out the podium girls | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. Given; there's differences between "hostile" and "unprofessional". I think we can agree that "unprofessional" is tolerated in NFL lockers rooms and is the societal norm. |
| 2013-11-06 12:13 PM in reply to: pitt83 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Given; there's differences between "hostile" and "unprofessional". I think we can agree that "unprofessional" is tolerated in NFL lockers rooms and is the societal norm. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Originally posted by pitt83 Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Plenty of what goes in in the NFL is hostile......hell, there are players today saying that they would have "handled it" on their own. And that's the deal...Martin decided to "handle it" differently....and if the NFL and all the pundits clamouring for air time keep it up they are going to get exactly what they are asking for. |
| 2013-11-06 12:42 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Given; there's differences between "hostile" and "unprofessional". I think we can agree that "unprofessional" is tolerated in NFL lockers rooms and is the societal norm. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Originally posted by pitt83 Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Plenty of what goes in in the NFL is hostile......hell, there are players today saying that they would have "handled it" on their own. And that's the deal...Martin decided to "handle it" differently....and if the NFL and all the pundits clamouring for air time keep it up they are going to get exactly what they are asking for. Personally I like the way Martin handled it. In this day and age there's no good reason to be a tough guy and `handle it' in the way some people are saying he should've: By fighting Incognito. I get it, the NFL is full of tough guys who are all tougher than the next guy, but fighting isn't a good way to solve problems in an `workplace.' |
| 2013-11-06 12:49 PM in reply to: mr2tony |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by Left Brain Personally I like the way Martin handled it. In this day and age there's no good reason to be a tough guy and `handle it' in the way some people are saying he should've: By fighting Incognito. I get it, the NFL is full of tough guys who are all tougher than the next guy, but fighting isn't a good way to solve problems in an `workplace.' Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Given; there's differences between "hostile" and "unprofessional". I think we can agree that "unprofessional" is tolerated in NFL lockers rooms and is the societal norm. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Originally posted by pitt83 Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Plenty of what goes in in the NFL is hostile......hell, there are players today saying that they would have "handled it" on their own. And that's the deal...Martin decided to "handle it" differently....and if the NFL and all the pundits clamouring for air time keep it up they are going to get exactly what they are asking for. HAHAHAHA!!! Yeah, fighting has no place in the "workplace". But......wait.....most players say they would have handled it that way....so fighting does have a place in that workplace, but name calling doesn't.....you know, because it's a normal workplace. I just read that the final straw for Martin was when he sat down to dinner and the rest of the players got up and left.........totally unreasonable in that workplace. LMAO |
| 2013-11-06 1:05 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 4313 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by Left Brain p> HAHAHAHA!!! Yeah, fighting has no place in the "workplace". But......wait.....most players say they would have handled it that way....so fighting does have a place in that workplace, but name calling doesn't.....you know, because it's a normal workplace. I just read that the final straw for Martin was when he sat down to dinner and the rest of the players got up and left.........totally unreasonable in that workplace. LMAO Say they would....said they would.....but that's talk. That's what people do in hypothetical situations they put themselves in. How many times have we said that about a situation.."Man...I was gonna punch that dude in the mouth" but in reality we really wouldn't have. Or "If that was me, I would have...." but probably less than a 1% of us have been in a situation like that. Should Michael Vick have broken the knee caps of Rilley Cooper for what he did? Some players in the locker room probably said they were going to but they didn't. |
| 2013-11-06 1:05 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by Left Brain Personally I like the way Martin handled it. In this day and age there's no good reason to be a tough guy and `handle it' in the way some people are saying he should've: By fighting Incognito. I get it, the NFL is full of tough guys who are all tougher than the next guy, but fighting isn't a good way to solve problems in an `workplace.' Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Given; there's differences between "hostile" and "unprofessional". I think we can agree that "unprofessional" is tolerated in NFL lockers rooms and is the societal norm. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Originally posted by pitt83 Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Plenty of what goes in in the NFL is hostile......hell, there are players today saying that they would have "handled it" on their own. And that's the deal...Martin decided to "handle it" differently....and if the NFL and all the pundits clamouring for air time keep it up they are going to get exactly what they are asking for. HAHAHAHA!!! Yeah, fighting has no place in the "workplace". But......wait.....most players say they would have handled it that way....so fighting does have a place in that workplace, but name calling doesn't.....you know, because it's a normal workplace. I just read that the final straw for Martin was when he sat down to dinner and the rest of the players got up and left.........totally unreasonable in that workplace. LMAO Are you saying that fighting is an acceptable solution to the problem in the NFL? |
| 2013-11-06 1:14 PM in reply to: mr2tony |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by Left Brain Are you saying that fighting is an acceptable solution to the problem in the NFL? Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by Left Brain Personally I like the way Martin handled it. In this day and age there's no good reason to be a tough guy and `handle it' in the way some people are saying he should've: By fighting Incognito. I get it, the NFL is full of tough guys who are all tougher than the next guy, but fighting isn't a good way to solve problems in an `workplace.' Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Given; there's differences between "hostile" and "unprofessional". I think we can agree that "unprofessional" is tolerated in NFL lockers rooms and is the societal norm. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. Originally posted by bradleyd3 Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Originally posted by mr2tony Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Originally posted by pitt83 Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Plenty of what goes in in the NFL is hostile......hell, there are players today saying that they would have "handled it" on their own. And that's the deal...Martin decided to "handle it" differently....and if the NFL and all the pundits clamouring for air time keep it up they are going to get exactly what they are asking for. HAHAHAHA!!! Yeah, fighting has no place in the "workplace". But......wait.....most players say they would have handled it that way....so fighting does have a place in that workplace, but name calling doesn't.....you know, because it's a normal workplace. I just read that the final straw for Martin was when he sat down to dinner and the rest of the players got up and left.........totally unreasonable in that workplace. LMAO It is to the players in their "workplace"......ask them. |
| 2013-11-06 1:15 PM in reply to: bradleyd3 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by Left Brain p> Say they would....said they would.....but that's talk. That's what people do in hypothetical situations they put themselves in. How many times have we said that about a situation.."Man...I was gonna punch that dude in the mouth" but in reality we really wouldn't have. Or "If that was me, I would have...." but probably less than a 1% of us have been in a situation like that. Should Michael Vick have broken the knee caps of Rilley Cooper for what he did? Some players in the locker room probably said they were going to but they didn't. HAHAHAHA!!! Yeah, fighting has no place in the "workplace". But......wait.....most players say they would have handled it that way....so fighting does have a place in that workplace, but name calling doesn't.....you know, because it's a normal workplace. I just read that the final straw for Martin was when he sat down to dinner and the rest of the players got up and left.........totally unreasonable in that workplace. LMAO I'm just telling you what the reasonable people of that workplace are saying. |
| 2013-11-06 1:23 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Incognito Yep, looks like a well-defined "workplace" to me. LMAO |
| 2013-11-06 2:59 PM in reply to: pitt83 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. Given; there's differences between "hostile" and "unprofessional". I think we can agree that "unprofessional" is tolerated in NFL lockers rooms and is the societal norm. Sure. Not to mince words, but I think "unprofessional" is kind of a relative term depending on the workplace and the "profession" that the workplace houses. Whereas "hostile environment" is a legal term with a clear definition, "unprofessional" sort of depends on the industry you're in. But, I'll say again, it doesn't matter to me whether you work for Merrill Lynch or Hooters or Billy Bob's Swamp Boat Tours: if you call someone a half-n-word, you don't deserve to continue to work there. |
| 2013-11-06 3:19 PM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
Champion 16151 Checkin' out the podium girls | Subject: RE: Incognito Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by bradleyd3 Originally posted by mr2tony Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by mr2tony As much as it pains me to say, I agree with LB in that it can't be considered a normal `workplace' issue because the NFL isn't a normal workplace. The coaches must yell at their players and the captains on the team must tell the younger players to do a better job or get the fu** out, both of which would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. For crying out loud, these guys do a job where their entire reason for being there is to hit other people in a most vicious and violent manner. Now, that said, there are lines at each `workplace' with regard to what constitutes harassment, and Incognito clearly went overboard. Must? Do you believe Tony Dungy, Larry Fitzgerald or Tim Briwn exhibit those "leadership" qualities? Threatening is a style of leadership; just a very poor style. BtW: Someone is in damage control mode: http://e.nfl.com/PS!RvGSJEuHEGAFBgIAAAAGCgFICggxMDgyOTUxMwoKMTgyMTE... Do you think Tony Dungy never yelled at his players? I'm guessing Larry Fitzgerald and Tim Brown have raised their voice a time or two. And telling players to improve their level of play or get the fu** out isn't a threat. That credo holds true for EVERY workplace, not just the NFL. Or, should, anyway. Yelling and cussing is 'acceptable' in that "workplace"......same as the military....and Law Enforcement. However, not at the WSJ. I can guarantee you that Larry Fitzgerald never told Kurt Warner "Hey cracker. Throw me the ball or imma kill you and your wife by slitting your throats when you sleep".... Yeah that's the exact same as getting in the face of a player who isn't playing to the standards set by the team. Ridiculous. And trust me, there's plenty of yelling and cussing going on over here. There's also a lot of yelling and cussing in ironman -- I know because I've done two, in case you weren't aware. Yelling at someone, even in a normal workplace is not in and of itself harassment, and legally, is perfectly ok. I tell employees all the time that being a horrible supervisor is not against the law. As long as the manager isn't only yelling at the women, or only at the people over 40, or as long as he isn't making reference to people's age/gender/race, etc, it's not legally actionable behavior. That doesn't mean it's appropriate, or that the company has to tolerate it, but it's not "harrassment". People often misunderstand a "hostile work environment" to mean "an environment where my boss (or co-worker) is hostile to me". That's not what it means. It refers specifically to discriminatory conduct based on one of the "protected classifications" (age, gender, national orgin, etc.). Yelling at someone, unless you're referring to their race or gender or something, isn't a hostile work environment. I agree to an extent that the NFL is a different environment than a typical workplace, but I'm sorry, if you call a co-workers a "half n***er", you should get fired. Period. Given; there's differences between "hostile" and "unprofessional". I think we can agree that "unprofessional" is tolerated in NFL lockers rooms and is the societal norm. Sure. Not to mince words, but I think "unprofessional" is kind of a relative term depending on the workplace and the "profession" that the workplace houses. Whereas "hostile environment" is a legal term with a clear definition, "unprofessional" sort of depends on the industry you're in. But, I'll say again, it doesn't matter to me whether you work for Merrill Lynch or Hooters or Billy Bob's Swamp Boat Tours: if you call someone a half-n-word, you don't deserve to continue to work there. Couldn't agree with you more. |
| 2013-11-06 3:48 PM in reply to: Kido |
| Iron Donkey 38643 , Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Incognito I think you summed it up rather well, Kido. |
| 2013-11-06 6:26 PM in reply to: pitt83 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Incognito Violence in the "workplace"? He crossed the line, right?
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| 2013-11-07 10:25 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Incognito Yeah buddy......a "workplace" just like any other.
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